04-17-2018, 07:36 AM | #23 |
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Am I correct to assume that these cars will put you into 'limp mode' if they detect a dangerous drop in oil pressure? I'm assuming (hoping) that since they do it for momentary fuel starvation and a host of other momentary issues - since I don't run a dongle with oil pressure mapping (and couldn't use it on track anyway, since it wouldn't be bolted down) I was hoping this would be a safety net to at least let me know if I was having any starvation issues.
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04-17-2018, 10:11 AM | #24 | |
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Were you running the track CW or CCW? Exactly what street tires were you running? Were you running a tune? What oil was in the car? I've done track days and time attack events in the car at Big Willow here. 130mph sustained big sweepers. Logs show no oil temp or pressure issues. Either way that's a very cool find with the M2 parts.
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04-17-2018, 10:15 AM | #25 | |
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06-06-2018, 07:06 PM | #26 | |
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09-10-2018, 01:40 PM | #27 |
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Can anyone else share more information on oil starvation experiences. I spoke with RSR Nurburg who runs eight M235's at the Nurburgring and they've not has any issues.
I'm debating whether to start modding the M235 for track or not?! |
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09-10-2018, 05:24 PM | #28 | |
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I was informed that fuel starvation was the issue to look out for in this regard, and to keep the fuel tank at least 1/2 full when negotiating right-hand turns with moderate-to-high lateral g-forces.
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10-07-2018, 08:29 AM | #29 | |
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01-16-2019, 01:30 AM | #30 |
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Sorry I did not reply. I'm not a regular in this forum. Anyway, after replacing those parts, I've been using the car for about a year (only race tracks) and have no issues with engine and transmission.
Again, the standard m235 oil system is not designed for the race track use, this is why its cup version M235R has M4/M2 oil system! M4 and M2 are made for the track. If you did't have any oil starvation problems, that only means, that the track that you are driving doesn't have multi apex long corners and you are not experiencing g forces for extended period of time. Or you just not fast enough in the corners.
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01-16-2019, 05:06 PM | #32 |
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That's a pretty long and flat high G and high speed turn. Most of us won't be driving on a track with a long turn like that. You were in the turn for over 12 seconds. LOL
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01-17-2019, 12:57 PM | #33 | |
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Other cars have no problem with this turn. At this track I drove BMW M3(all generations), almost all Porsche models, Renault Megan RS, Renault Clio RS, VW Scirocco, Nissan GTR, Ferrari 458, Mercedes (a lots of different models), Audi TT and R8, all bone stock and neither of them had any problems after 1000 laps.
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01-18-2019, 02:31 PM | #34 | |
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If you've ever torn down one of these engines you'd know the oiling system is weak for track driving. There is no baffle in place and the shape of the oil pan allows oil to slosh forward in roll. The sump really isn't all that deep either and 7qt capacity is relatively small. A deeper oil pan, 2 qts more capacity, and a longer pick up tube would be great start to address this. That is one of the things the N20 race cars are doing. There is an entire thread in the N20 section dedicated to showcasing oil starvation with oil pressure plotted along side g-force. The oil pan and oil pickup is effectively the same on the N20 engine as it is on the N5x engines just with 2 less cylinders. Obviously driving style and setup can play a big roll in this. Lots of cars are set up where they are slow-in (understeer on entry) and then the driver is just mashing the gas around the turn. Even the "semi-dry" system that the M cars use is only rate for up to 1.3g. BMW points this out themselves in the S55 engine PDF. The B58 did not get any special oil pan or pump. There is no reason to believe the B58 would be any more or less reliable. Upon rebuild, I personally put in a slight baffle and an Accusump. I may do what another user in my thread posted and hook up an oil transfer pump to the rear of the pan. Should be able to tap the oil pan in place and pump oil from the front of the pan to the rear to mimic the M2 setup. It would be cheaper and easier than sourcing M2/3/4 parts and swapping them in. Dropping the oil pan SUCKS. Just some food for thought... at 1g oil forms a 45* wedge up the wall of the pan. Now think of how much the oil sloshes at 1.3g... Last edited by bbnks2; 01-18-2019 at 02:53 PM.. |
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01-24-2019, 09:10 AM | #36 | |
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01-24-2019, 03:49 PM | #37 | |
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Lateral G Avg -1.21 MPH Avg 96.35 Steering Avg 68.90° The strong Lat G section starts at 43.15 of the lap time and ends at 53.42. One of our cars would run around 11.5 seconds through the Carousel. That would lower the Lat G somewhat, and it might slightly reduce any potential oil starvation.
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01-25-2019, 08:24 AM | #38 | |
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Oil starvation is an issue for pretty much every street car in existence that didn't come with provisions to prevent starvation. LS, VQ, N5x/N2x , EJ, and plenty of other engines have threads out there documenting oil starvation. |
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01-25-2019, 08:27 AM | #39 | |
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Oil starvation is an issue for pretty much every street car in existence that didn't come with provisions to prevent starvation. LS, VQ, N5x/N2x , EJ, and plenty of other "great" tuning engines have massive threads documenting oil starvation when turning. Last edited by bbnks2; 01-25-2019 at 12:38 PM.. |
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01-25-2019, 11:09 AM | #40 |
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Back in the 'old days' we used to run an Accusump as a cheaper alternative to a dry-sump. Is anybody here using one of these? Can they even be adapted to these new high-tech motors? IIRC, the ones I saw in use were just plumbed into the oil return line from the cooler, and it sounds like the BMWs have a lot of internal routing going on that might defeat that.
And thanks for the WGI vid - I'm already getting stoked for my second season tracking, and it whets my appetite even more. |
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01-25-2019, 11:56 AM | #41 | |
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Also, you can run an in-line check valve on the oil return line to prevent the potential back-flow of oil. I wired a light and switch to the Accusumps electronic valve so I can see when it's dumping oil. This has shown that the oil pressure PID is not as responsive as you might think. BMW either does some kind of smoothing of the data, or, the logging resolution (sensor feedback or OBD limits) just isn't that great. I say this because a log of oil pressure will show 80psi while shifting but the Accusump will dump oil during a shift which indicate it actually dropping below 60psi. Not concerning, but, it shows the oil pressure monitoring may not have the greatest resolution to capture a split second oil pressure loss. Accusump is a great device but I've still read people popping engines even when using them. Last edited by bbnks2; 06-06-2019 at 07:51 AM.. |
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01-25-2019, 05:16 PM | #42 |
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The car in the video had one, but an Accusump is further than I'm willing to go with the M240. As little time as this car spends on the track, I'm not going to take on that level of complexity.
If it was more of a track car, I'd consider installing one. First, though, I'd collect data from an aftermarket sensor to show me where and how much the car is dropping pressure.
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01-29-2019, 10:39 AM | #43 |
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Glad to hear these are still an option, if/when the warranty ends and I start getting more creative w/ the mods (and perhaps able to generate enough g-loading to actually matter by then )
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05-28-2019, 12:11 PM | #44 |
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dradernh cross posting from "spool" & "street" forum...
It finally stopped raining and I was able to get out to run another autocross yesterday with some sticky Hoosier A7 (17/225's). https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/5-1...w9k8juO8HLLSGF No Accusump installed. I have been messing with a few things and didn't have time to re-install it. The results were not good... I don't have any video since I was getting data, but, there are multiple points in the log where I was seeing low 20's psi oil pressure. As posted earlier, anything over 3,000rpm and I should be seeing 60psi still. The first picture below was a sweeping left hand turn. I saw a minimum of 26.5psi and then again in a sweeping right hand turn I was seeing as low as 23.5psi. I think I am going to go change my oil and look for metal LOL Here is a comparison I did last fall of accusump vs no accusump. It works!: Top log shows 1 single <60psi event (49.5psi). Bottom logs shows that without the Accusump I had multiple ~4x.x psi data points. The 3qt Accusump was doing a decent job at keeping oil pressure supplemented. Last edited by bbnks2; 06-06-2019 at 07:53 AM.. |
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