03-22-2014, 05:52 PM | #331 | |
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03-22-2014, 07:10 PM | #332 | ||
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Here's Porsche's answer to 'small displacement turbo engines poor throttle response' cliché... they are going to adopt it and in different guises, go figure : http://www.worldcarfans.com/114032172143 /next-generation-porsche-boxster-and-cayman-confirmed-with Quote:
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03-23-2014, 12:06 AM | #333 | |
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The upper limit has been pushed upward by improvements in turbocharger technology, but the engine in the CLA 45 has, in my opinion, been pushed too far. It's that simple. You're throwing up more strawmen with your Porsche example.
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03-23-2014, 05:02 AM | #334 |
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I had to laugh at the BMW's don't turn in because they have a heavy front end!! haha… The position of the engine (rather than the weight of a 6cyl compared to a 4cyl) has a much bigger impact on the front tyres ability to turn the car..
What I don't understand, is going to great lengths to explain why the throttle response in high powered diesels is so poor and then wax lyrical about a 4 pot turbo engine which will suffer the very same fate. Low boost, high displacement engines will always be much more flexible and responsive than a high boost 2ltr 4 cylinder engine. To think using a 6 cylinder is marketing tosh is just ridiculous. It isn't like AMG have just invented this, there has been 900+ bhp 2.0 Evo's and the likes since the dawn of time and no - I wouldn't want one of those either. Last edited by leon1984; 03-23-2014 at 05:09 AM.. |
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03-23-2014, 08:36 AM | #335 |
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I think everyone who eats with a fork can understand what I'm saying...
If throttle response quality was BMW's first priority with their petrol engines, if that was absolutely critical, they would never have abandoned naturally aspirated engines in favor of turbocharged ones just like Porsche did so far on their most sportier (non-turbo) S and GT3 models which would be the equivalent to the M Performance and M models on BMW's lineup. Moreover, even on the high displacement, 6-cyl. engine of the 911 Turbo Porsche went as far as to use two VGTs (Variable Geometry Turbochargers - one for each cyl. bank) which, again, are widely used on diesel engines for a long time now, with the sole objective of favoring the throttle response quality even if at the expense of some reliability, since exhaust gases temperatures are MUCH higher on petrol than diesel engines which is ALWAYS critical for any moving parts to withstand faultlessly, let alone VGTs. BUT now Porsche felt that the 4-cyl. turbocharged petrol engines technology is such that they are going to adopt it first on theirs new entry-level models such as the Boxster and the Cayman and even admitting that the turbocharged 4-pot is good for as much as 400 hp on a future high-boost top performer version of both the Cayman and Boxster, which would be the equivalent to BMW's upcoming M2. Once again, BMW is lagging behind... they will loose for the CLA because RWD alone is not enough to automatically classify a car as having a sportier character. BMW has to concentrate themselves on a truly weight reduction program for, at least, their entry-level M models of which, smaller, lighter, lower COG and more fuel-efficient turbocharged 4-cyl. engines must be integral part if they want to beat the competition. Last edited by GoingTooFast; 03-23-2014 at 12:47 PM.. |
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03-23-2014, 01:06 PM | #336 |
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So, if a turbocharged 4-cyl. engine is good enough for AMG and Porsche, why is BMW keeping the 6 cyl. engine on their 2-series?!
It's a marketing thing... with NO meaningful dynamic advantage and VERY important disadvantages. Buying a car today because it has a turbocharged 6-cyl. engine instead of 4 cylinders is a mute point when you can extract the same power from both but more efficiently so from the latter and without sacrificing throttle response in a significant way... BMW will learn it the hard way because their 2-series can't even look as luxurious as the CLA. It's a loss, loss situation for BMW!!! |
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03-23-2014, 02:25 PM | #337 |
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If Porsche could get away with abominations such as Cayenne and Panamera it proves they can also get away with sucky throttle response as well. The reason is that way too many people buy purely based on badge.
Also because most of those buyers can't really drive they opt for automatic transmission with its programmed software tricks designed to hide poor throttle response. Of course software can only do so much because it still must operate within physical system limitations. I suspect that's the real reason CLA45AMG DSG transmission is universally panned as sluggish, the throttle in that car is simply too slow to respond to the transmission's commands to match the revs. This also explains why CLA45AMG is not offered with manual transmission: it would expose the laggy throttle. |
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03-23-2014, 04:04 PM | #338 | |
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You really are clueless.
Firstly, if you think 4WD makes a car 'sporty' then you are way off the pace. Every uneducated person flocks to buy "quattro" Audi's only to by essentially a FWD system that can at certain points, and pretty crudely transfer power to the rear wheels. Dynamically Audi's are very very poor, as most decent road testers will confirm. Doesn't stop average joe on the street thinking he has a 'cool fast car' because it is 4WD though does it? The biggest downfall of the CLA, once you get past it's horrendous looks is a very bland 4 pot turbo engine. No character, no soul. Quote:
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03-23-2014, 04:33 PM | #339 |
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Just curious, have you actually owned or driven any of these "abominations?" Sure both you mentioned don't handle like a track day GT3 but let's be honest, they're both top of their class for what they are. I had a Panamera for 6 months and loved it. Got a Macan on order.
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03-23-2014, 05:01 PM | #340 |
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By "abominations" I meant styling. In my opinion they are grotesque Frankensteins of modern car design. I am sure they are well-enough engineered, especially later ones. Regarding styling there is hope too: Macan is much more cohesive than early Cayennes.
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03-23-2014, 05:11 PM | #341 |
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The Macan is much better looking and I can't wait to get it. Yes those cars are hideous but the Panamera especially is an amazing car to drive for a bigger 4-door. I was at the NYC auto show black tie night discussing it w a very attractive female Porsche exec. She asked me my thoughts since I've driven and owned quite a few over the years. I told her, "it's like f*cking an ugly chick that's a great lay, it's awesome when you're inside but as soon as you're done and climb out you want to throw up when you see what you've just been inside." She laughed and we grabbed drinks later but I thought I was going to get slapped for a second. That's honestly the best way to describe both those cars.
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03-23-2014, 05:52 PM | #342 | |
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03-23-2014, 06:22 PM | #343 | |
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0-62 mph in 4.6 seconds I wouldn't call it bland... which is something I cannot say about the M235i looks. Last edited by GoingTooFast; 03-23-2014 at 06:28 PM.. |
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03-23-2014, 07:12 PM | #344 | |
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03-23-2014, 11:13 PM | #345 | |
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The CLA makes a lot of power...if you don't mind the throttle response then it might be good for you.... but the I6 sounds nicer and is more responsive.... why can't you understand some people prefer that ? and keep going over and over and over ..... |
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03-24-2014, 08:40 AM | #346 | |
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They belong to the same league. One is not sportier than the other, it just happens that one looks and is more expensive and also faster. You see, as an 1M owner I miss the first time I drove a BMW, I miss the E36 318is Coupé, I miss that lightness sensation, the feeling of being totally connected to the car as one, the low seating position, the dashboard oriented towards the driver, everything gravitating around you, that nimble sensation as you turned the steering wheel into a corner with the throttle dictating the chassis behavior in perfect harmony with your momentary state of mind. Yes, it wasn't a 6-cyl. engine; yes, it wasn't a high capacity engine; yes, it wasn't a very powerful or sophisticated engine; yes, it lacked a limit slip differential; yes, it wasn't the fastest car around, far from it; yes, now that I have all of that I still miss the red E36 318is Coupé on the optional sport suspensions. It's time to go back to that era with lightweight 4-cyl. engines and chassis... that's what will make all the difference, that's what the 1M didn't help me to forget! Last edited by GoingTooFast; 03-24-2014 at 08:59 AM.. |
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03-24-2014, 10:04 AM | #347 | ||
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03-24-2014, 10:53 AM | #348 | |
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then wth do you want? 5 cil If you want 4 cil get a 228... |
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03-24-2014, 11:26 AM | #349 |
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Would have to agree. I have a CLA45 with eurocharged tune and it's putting out 400 HP and 395 ft-lb of tq. Pretty impressive out of a 2 liter and sounds good as well with performance exhaust option. I'd say anything over 2200 RPMs and you're pretty much in the power band through redline. Definitely not bland in my opinion! To each their own though.
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03-24-2014, 01:26 PM | #350 | |
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Of course I would like to see a 4-cyl. engine in the upcoming M2 which would mean I could buy one, as my next car will have a turbocharged 4-cyl. engine for sure... what I'm saying is it doesn't need to have more than 300 hp. Everytime you climb on the engine's power output scale you end up sacrificing lightness one way or another. Stay below 300hp, stay below 1400 kg (EU weight) and I assure you BMW will have an ABSOLUTE winner... the first question is, at what price?! The answer is, it all depends on BMW's engineering expertise... the second question is, are they capable of?! The answer is, that's what I'm trying to figure out... |
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03-24-2014, 06:24 PM | #351 |
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03-25-2014, 08:15 AM | #352 | |
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Agreed on the first point, my first point is very very rarely does anyone produce an exciting handling 4WD platform. The new Golf R seems to be getting good reviews, but don't they all when they first come out.
0-60 time doesn't make something exciting, you seem to be passionate about vehicle weight and 'fun' hence not wanting big 6cyl engines which I can relate too but quoting a 0-60 time saying it's not bland because of that doesn't add up. I first test drove an M235i Auto and found it dull. 0-60 in 4.8 seconds and I got out thinking "I couldn't care if I never drove that car again"... was pretty annoyed as I thought it ticked all the boxes. I got persuaded to try the manual (in the M135 but same running gear) and was smitten, loved it and instantly ordered an M235 Manual. It isn't the 0-60 time that makes a car or engine exciting it is the delivery. My old Cayman S was 5.5 to 60 and 3 times more exciting even in a straight line than an M135/235 or CLA for that matter. The engine is a masterpiece. Quote:
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