[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by dradernh

I'm thinking "like AWD" = Tractor Beam, or something elegant along those lines.

I feel like we discussed three different topics in one treasure trove of a thread. I love it!

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by dradernh

I'm thinking "like AWD" = Tractor Beam, or something elegant along those lines – i.e., something that really makes a significant difference.

Pshaw. Screw elegance. I want something gritty, dark and utilitarian.

[Mehim]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

AWD has no traction.

No part of a vehicle above the contact patch generates traction on the road.

Tires have traction.



Besides, what else do many of us have to do these days? I've been laid off for three weeks while the auto industry tries to plan a re-opening.

Adding weight adds traction. Awd adds weight which adds traction.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Mehim

Adding weight adds traction. Awd adds weight which adds traction.

Yes, the tires generate more traction when more downforce (weight) is applied. The tires still have the traction, not the added weight. Imagine a zero coefficient of friction surface. Weight won’t matter. This is somewhat semantics but the basic truth is that any and all traction is solely a function of tire capability.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Mehim

Adding weight adds traction. Awd adds weight which adds traction.

Awd adds mass. Any time you want to accelerate, slow down or change directions, that extra mass is going to resist those changes.

[Throttlesteer14]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Awd adds mass. Any time you want to accelerate, slow down or change directions, that extra mass is going to resist those changes.

Yes, that 108 lbs or extra 3% is going to feel like you're driving a cement truck around corners. Rally car drivers are abandoning AWD cars for 2021 due to the tremendous disadvantage they pose.

People can argue preference or whether it's a waste of money to get AWD vs. RWD. But the degree to which folks are sensationalizing the performance difference is a bit silly.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

Yes, that 108 lbs or extra 3% is going to feel like you're driving a cement truck around corners. Rally car drivers are abandoning AWD cars for 2021 due to the tremendous disadvantage they pose.

People can argue preference or whether it's a waste of money to get AWD vs. RWD. But the degree to which folks are sensationalizing the performance difference is a bit silly.

There's that "straw man" debate tactic again! We don't need to go to the extreme to make the point. Granted, I don't think in most normal driving that a performance difference would be noticeable. However, what was immediately noticeable was the difference in the feel of the steering. I did an A/B comparison and had no trouble feeling which felt quicker, lighter, more reactive. I didn't push the cars hard enough to sense an understeer difference, but the steering feel was enough to help me make my personal choice clear.

[Throttlesteer14]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

There's that "straw man" debate tactic again! We don't need to go to the extreme to make the point. Granted, I don't think in most normal driving that a performance difference would be noticeable. However, what was immediately noticeable was the difference in the feel of the steering. I did an A/B comparison and had no trouble feeling which felt quicker, lighter, more reactive. I didn't push the cars hard enough to sense an understeer difference, but the steering feel was enough to help me make my personal choice clear.

If you re-read the post, it addresses the concern over mass and its affect on acceleration and inertia. No straw man there. I'm going to guess that the majority of the folks that have posted on the last several pages RARELY push their car hard into corners. Even those that do, it's probably less than 5% of their normal driving. So arguing over the subtle dynamics of AWD vs. RWD when specifically calling out acceleration and lateral inertia is silly. Please let me know the last time you noticed the additional 108lbs when accelerating an AWD model vs. a RWD model. You're more likely to notice the differences in grip, assuming no LSD in the RWD. Cornering dynamics will be different, and that can translate to different steering feel.

You would think people were arguing for their favorite football team or something

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

If you re-read the post, it addresses the concern over mass and its affect on acceleration and inertia. No straw man there. I'm going to guess that the majority of the folks that have posted on the last several pages RARELY push their car hard into corners. Even those that do, it's probably less than 5% of their normal driving. So arguing over the subtle dynamics of AWD vs. RWD when specifically calling out acceleration and lateral inertia is silly. Please let me know the last time you noticed the additional 108lbs when accelerating an AWD model vs. a RWD model. You're more likely to notice the differences in grip, assuming no LSD in the RWD. Cornering dynamics will be different, and that can translate to different steering feel.

You would think people were arguing for their favorite football team or something

Dude I am having a ball with thread. It is like these guys have no concept of *putting down* torque when they talk about traction.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

...You're more likely to notice the differences in grip, assuming no LSD in the RWD. Cornering dynamics will be different, and that can translate to different steering feel.

I was not referring to cornering dynamics. I mean the specific sensation of interacting with the steering. The 2 Series steering sensation with AWD felt directionally more similar to the heavier 4 Series coupe, which I also drove that same day. The RWD 2 simply feels lighter, more nimble, and less burdened, which I attribute to the fewer mechanicals up front versus AWD. This can be felt at quite normal street driving speeds...it is not a "performance" issue. It is possible that this sensation means more to me than to others, but this wins out over other characteristics in making my choice.

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

It is like these guys have no concept of *putting down* torque when they talk about traction.

This seems quite a non-sequitor after many posts where putting down torque has repeatedly been cited as a good reason for AWD, assuming it is actually useful. But, neither a 230 nor 240 are an M5 or a Carrera 4 GTS. Most of the discussions about traction have referred to low mu surfaces, such as in winter. Street racing is somewhere between idiotic and irrelevant. So, unless you're putting together a car for a track, this hardly applies to almost any 2 Series as it rolled out of the plant.

[Throttlesteer14]

I think the assessment with steering feel is fair. Although with electric assisted steering, you must be more perceptive than I am. I drove both the RWD and AWD and didn't get the same sense driving around town. I would guess the feel would be significantly different even if one car had run-flats and/or a different alignment than the other.

What I notice about the AWD is a different approach to braking, apexing, and throttle input on exiting. That's significantly different than a RWD. I don't notice the difference in weight.

[Poochie]

It has said before but I guess I'll state it again; for a vehicle like the 2 Series, which puts down under 400whp, RWD, with some season-appropriate tires and objectively, you're not missing any benefits AWD affords.

Mercedes made their S65 AMG with over 700TQ, so powerful, that the powertrain was physically twisting the chassis, yet it was only offered with a RWD platform. I'm pretty sure their engineers are way more knowledgeable than any of us spitballing here and they didn't see the need for an AWD setup.

AWD has its place in the market but with modern tire technology, they are really just a choice and not a necessity. Not faulting anyone that chooses an AWD vehicle but don't loose any sleep if you didn't.

[harma24]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

and for those who choose AWD, many do not think of or wish to be bothered by seasonal changes.

I for one do change between summer and winter tires, and from what I've read on this forum, I think a good percentage of those with xDrive do. I think this more falls along the lines of enthusiast (those who enjoy driving and do have seasonal tires) vs. car owner (those who use a car as a tool and simplify by sticking with all-season tires).

I also speak from personal experience; I have one of each in my house.

[Throttlesteer14]

As mentioned, I don't have room for another set of wheels and tires. All-seasons and AWD are what I chose to roll with. This is my DD.

We had one steady rain event last auto-x season. 7 out of the top 10 drivers were in AWD cars. Guess how many of those 7 cracked the top 10 in any of the other events? Zero. All of the cars in the top 10 were on RE-71Rs or MP4S tires.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer14

Yes, that 108 lbs or extra 3% is going to feel like you're driving a cement truck around corners. Rally car drivers are abandoning AWD cars for 2021 due to the tremendous disadvantage they pose.

People can argue preference or whether it's a waste of money to get AWD vs. RWD. But the degree to which folks are sensationalizing the performance difference is a bit silly.

You're misunderstanding what i'm saying.

My post was responding to a guy who was talking about how the extra weight of all-wheel drive was adding traction.

108 lbs is 108 lbs, but regardless of how much of a difference those pounds make, those 108 lbs are hurting, not helping the performance of the car.

I am NOT making the argument that 2WD is better because its 108 lbs lighter.

[GoldfishRT]

There are certain realities about living in the Rockies that make AWD extremely compelling. Where I live, there are a few days that not even good winter tires will suffice on a RWD only car. Too many literal mountains to climb from home to work.

I would take a manual RWD any day of the week. However, if I were compelled to have an auto, I may as well make it the AWD model and make the rest of my life easier. But I don't take my cars to the track more than once or twice a year.

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by GoldfishRT

There are certain realities about living in the Rockies that make AWD extremely compelling. Where I live, there are a few days that not even good winter tires will suffice on a RWD only car. Too many literal mountains to climb from home to work.

I would take a manual RWD any day of the week. However, if I were compelled to have an auto, I may as well make it the AWD model and make the rest of my life easier. But I don't take my cars to the track more than once or twice a year.

What are you talking about? All that extra weight in the AWD is going to cause you to UnD3rSteEr and that will make you crash into the Rockies! What you want is RWD so you when you obviously Ov3rSteEr you can undercorrect it, and steeeer right around the Rockies! Ergo RWD will be safer for your use case.

Don't drink the AWD marketing kool-aid!

[Maynard]

Yes, don't drink the cool aid, whatever you do - one drive and you will perhaps be hooked. I know I was. Guess I'm just a sucker for that incredibly planted 4 wheel drift dynamic even at non-threshold speeds. The incredible traction on winter roads just adds 6 more months of glee (Hakki studded this past winter, very satisfying). Of course, my supermodel girlfriend immediately dumped me for some guy in a Mustang who could do mad drifts just leaving the parking lot, so there are tradeoffs...

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

...UnD3rSteEr ... Ov3rSteEr

I think we need to chill on this topic for health and safety...seems to cause seizures of the "covfefe" magnitude....

[BimBimM2]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Yes, don't drink the cool aid, whatever you do - one drive and you will perhaps be hooked. I know I was. Guess I'm just a sucker for that incredibly planted 4 wheel drift dynamic even at non-threshold speeds. The incredible traction on winter roads just adds 6 more months of glee (Hakki studded this past winter, very satisfying). Of course, my supermodel girlfriend immediately dumped me for some guy in a Mustang who could do mad drifts just leaving the parking lot, so there are tradeoffs...

I have been considering Hakkis; are yours 8 or 9? MN winters and studded tires with AWD would be a joy!!

Any reason you picked one over the other?

EDIT: I had the WS90s this past winter. TANK!

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by BimBimM2

MN winters and studded tires with AWD would be a joy!!

It's surprising that as far north as they are, both MN and WI don't permit studded tires.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Yes, don't drink the cool aid, whatever you do - one drive and you will perhaps be hooked. I know I was. Guess I'm just a sucker for that incredibly planted 4 wheel drift dynamic even at non-threshold speeds. The incredible traction on winter roads just adds 6 more months of glee (Hakki studded this past winter, very satisfying). Of course, my supermodel girlfriend immediately dumped me for some guy in a Mustang who could do mad drifts just leaving the parking lot, so there are tradeoffs...

I know you're joking here, but you bring up a good point:

Guess I'm just a sucker for that incredibly planted 4 wheel drift dynamic

That's honestly perfectly legit. Most people will say they like the on limit handling of rear wheel drive better, but everyone likes their cars set up differently. And while all-wheel drive feeling isn't my absolute favorite, its still interesting enough that my dream garage would 100 percent include an all-wheel drive sports car to be used on the track in dry conditions. Again, if I had to choose just one car to drive on the track it would not be AWD, but if it would be for someone else, that's a legit preference.