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      01-23-2023, 09:35 AM   #529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onesie View Post
Dude, I can even agree with what you’re saying, it’s just that I couldn’t read it. I’m not sure what rampage you’re on… the poster said “if a dealer wanted to sell a Lincoln, they had to buy tools”. Anything else is beside the point, I’m really confused by your rant.
I'm not ranting at you, you are good . It's just the idea of mandating stuff that doesn't need mandated.

go back to post 570 where mandated sales rules were brought up. The idea that if you want to sell certain models, you have to invest significantly in certain tools/resources that you may never be able to capitalize on.

Tesla has sales centers, and service centers. A majority of sales centers are not service centers. Imagine if all sales centers needed to service the cars they sold. There are 673 sales centers and 140 service centers. Now apply that to Ford, or any other brand. It seems to work for Tesla. One size fits all rules hurt consumers.
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      01-23-2023, 10:26 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
I'm not ranting at you, you are good . It's just the idea of mandating stuff that doesn't need mandated.

go back to post 570 where mandated sales rules were brought up. The idea that if you want to sell certain models, you have to invest significantly in certain tools/resources that you may never be able to capitalize on.

Tesla has sales centers, and service centers. A majority of sales centers are not service centers. Imagine if all sales centers needed to service the cars they sold. There are 673 sales centers and 140 service centers. Now apply that to Ford, or any other brand. It seems to work for Tesla. One size fits all rules hurt consumers.
I understand what you’re saying. I kinda disagree that it’s working for Tesla.
Tesla is selling cars to first time buyers. The average person (i.e. me) rely on one car. Not being able to service it, waiting months for parts, etc. is really going to hurt Tesla. I guess we’ll have to wait to see, but I don’t think it’s good long term for them to offer bad customer service and have repeat business.

However, Tesla is not a good example because it doesn’t have dealers (unless things changed). So, they can decide what to do. When you work in partnership with others (manufacturers and dealers) you have to have agreements in place to provide the service you want and need. If you own all, you can decide to have a store that doesn’t do X for example. It’s all yours anyway.

I’ll give you a simple example: I’ve ALWAYS been super mad about dealers (absolute most) who will be there rain or shine on weekends and beyond business hours to SELL you a car.
But when you need service, they shrug (“sucked already bought a car, no care”) and only open for service or parts during business hours, leaving you scrambling getting late for work/missing hours because they are no longer super interested in you.

I think having a dealer that only sells but not service cars is worse. That was the point I was alluding to when the OP of this discussion said that a Ford dealer needed to be able to service Lincolns if they wanted to sell them. I think they should. It might just be an opinion, and opinions are like aholes
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      01-23-2023, 11:35 AM   #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onesie View Post
I kinda disagree that it’s working for Tesla.
You certainly aren't wrong. I was shopping Tesla in late 2019. In my due diligence I found the local service center was rather poorly rated, in addition to national consensus on the tesla forms that this is a common thing ie: it is systematic rather than due to a bad service manager here and there at a few locations. They used to offer loaners to take the sting out of getting crap service, then they switched to uber credits. F- that. It was one of the factors that turned me away from the brand.

At least with BMW, I have 3 within an hours drive, if I don't like one, I have options. There are also lots of independents to try. The next closest Tesla service center is ~4 hours.
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      01-23-2023, 02:56 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
And we were getting along so well.
Anyway, why you gettin' upset about it?
We still are right? RIGHT?? I'm not upset, that's just how I say stuff.

What? I'm workin on it.
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      01-23-2023, 03:15 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
The idea that if you want to sell certain models, you have to invest significantly in certain tools/resources that you may never be able to capitalize on ... One size fits all rules hurt consumers.
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Originally Posted by Onesie View Post
I understand what you’re saying. I kinda disagree that it’s working for Tesla...Not being able to service it, waiting months for parts, etc. is really going to hurt Tesla ... I don’t think it’s good long term for them to offer bad customer service

Tesla is not a good example because it doesn’t have dealers
I'm with both of you guys on this

The thing is, US dealers have the insane lobbying org that is the NADA using government regulation to give them a business model the market doesn't support. That's why the dealers can essentially shit on the OEMs without fear; at least up until now!

The thing is, BEVs give the OEMs new leverage:

They can do what Ford is doing and break up their company into different business units/legal entities. The way the laws are written, dealer leverage is derivative of OEMs having existing businesses selling units to dealers ... BUT if the OEM creates a new company that's sold zero units ever, like say, "Ford Model E", then Ford can do what Tesla is doing: sell cars online and build their own sales & service centers.

While that sounds like a big capital lift, Ford and GM already have a huge head start with their fleets businesses and they could leverage that or even larger used car centers or even craft entirely new agreements with some of these dealership companies!

IMO, the #1 reason Ford is creating two business units is a shot across the bow to dealer groups.

And Efthreeoh, that's my point about your Ma & Pa dealer: Ford and GM know it's only a matter of time before all dealerships in the US are part of a public company like Lithia for rurals or Penske for cities and that only makes the lobbying & grift to congress 1000x easier. Lithia is buying 100 rurals / year; there's only so many, and soon no matter what Ford is asking, your Ma & Pa dealership will be big corp Lithia.

The OEMs are trying to nip it in the bud, using fine-we'll-just-create-new-legal-entities-that-build-these-cars to control the customer experience and make it McDonalds: you get the same dealer experience in Dubuque as in LA.

If they don't they could lose control of their businesses as the top 10 dealer groups regulate Ford & GM under their heel.

"woke" is a boogie-man smoke screen oligarchs are using so you don't notice them using the tools of the state to move massive industries under their control. You're worried about the wrong villains.
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      01-24-2023, 07:08 AM   #534
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Environmental capitalism instead of wokeism. The ev is just a result of exploiting a percieved crisis to make millions of bucks. The real factors that affect pollution are hard to address let's go for the lowest hanging fruit(the commuter) and make billions in the process.
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      01-24-2023, 08:39 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Environmental capitalism instead of wokeism. The ev is just a result of exploiting a percieved crisis to make millions of bucks. The real factors that affect pollution are hard to address let's go for the lowest hanging fruit(the commuter) and make billions in the process.
Considering there is 0 Aviation environmental regulation, private jets have no limitations, nor do really cargo ships, we have no real rail transport in this country and 62% of the US power production is from fossil fuels, I would say that is accurate... it's crazy the govt would support this tech without looking at the bigger picture.
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      01-24-2023, 09:50 AM   #536
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Much easier to control a population using EVs compared to ICE
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      01-24-2023, 10:21 AM   #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Environmental capitalism instead of wokeism. The ev is just a result of exploiting a percieved crisis to make millions of bucks. The real factors that affect pollution are hard to address let's go for the lowest hanging fruit(the commuter) and make billions in the process.
And what is disturbing is that it's not even a very big fruit. US only accounts for 15% of the worlds CO2 production. All US transportation is only 27% of the US's total C02 production, and light duty cars are only 57% of that. We are going to solve a perceived crisis by upending multiple industries, force people to buy more expensive cars that they can't logistically support, and spend trillions of dollars that we don't have, and waste valuable natural resources to accommodate all of that. All to reduce CO2 production in an area that is 57% of 27% of 15% of the problem. (.15*.27*.57)= 2.3%. The energy replacement to fulfill this need still uses over half of it's input from CO2 production (carbon power) = half of 2.3% (.15*.27*.57) /2 = a little more than 1% change in the worlds CO2 problem.

Yah, it's kinda nutty.

Let people have EV's, for many they are great. Lets just not fool ourselves (or others) about what those EV's are accomplishing.
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      01-24-2023, 12:01 PM   #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
Environmental capitalism instead of wokeism. The ev is just a result of exploiting a percieved crisis to make millions of bucks. The real factors that affect pollution are hard to address let's go for the lowest hanging fruit(the commuter) and make billions in the process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Considering there is 0 Aviation environmental regulation, private jets have no limitations, nor do really cargo ships, we have no real rail transport in this country and 62% of the US power production is from fossil fuels, I would say that is accurate... it's crazy the govt would support this tech without looking at the bigger picture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
And what is disturbing is that it's not even a very big fruit. US only accounts for 15% of the worlds CO2 production. All US transportation is only 27% of the US's total C02 production, and light duty cars are only 57% of that. We are going to solve a perceived crisis by upending multiple industries, force people to buy more expensive cars that they can't logistically support, and spend trillions of dollars that we don't have, and waste valuable natural resources to accommodate all of that. All to reduce CO2 production in an area that is 57% of 27% of 15% of the problem. (.15*.27*.57)= 2.3%. The energy replacement to fulfill this need still uses over half of it's input from CO2 production (carbon power) = half of 2.3% (.15*.27*.57) /2 = a little more than 1% change in the worlds CO2 problem.

Yah, it's kinda nutty.

Let people have EV's, for many they are great. Lets just not fool ourselves (or others) about what those EV's are accomplishing.
Couldn't agree with these statements more. I still say we should just abolish the entire cruise ship industry and see what kind of reduction in emissions that yields. There's no worse or more gluttonous way to travel in the 21st century, IMO. The loss in jobs would not be that great, and people would still travel to many of the destinations anyway, they would just use air or rail.
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      01-24-2023, 12:12 PM   #539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
And what is disturbing is that it's not even a very big fruit. US only accounts for 15% of the worlds CO2 production. All US transportation is only 27% of the US's total C02 production, and light duty cars are only 57% of that. We are going to solve a perceived crisis by upending multiple industries, force people to buy more expensive cars that they can't logistically support, and spend trillions of dollars that we don't have, and waste valuable natural resources to accommodate all of that. All to reduce CO2 production in an area that is 57% of 27% of 15% of the problem. (.15*.27*.57)= 2.3%. The energy replacement to fulfill this need still uses over half of it's input from CO2 production (carbon power) = half of 2.3% (.15*.27*.57) /2 = a little more than 1% change in the worlds CO2 problem.

Yah, it's kinda nutty.

Let people have EV's, for many they are great. Lets just not fool ourselves (or others) about what those EV's are accomplishing.
But its okay, because your new EV can make fart noises and will come to you instead of you going to your car like the pleb
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      01-24-2023, 12:18 PM   #540
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Originally Posted by kyriian View Post
But its okay, because your new EV can make fart noises and will come to you instead of you going to your car like the pleb
Because this is what the people want :



And that ~1% global C02 reduction won't be realized until 100% of all ICE's are gone and we are only driving EV's. We are 8 years away from the end of the world, so I don't think we are gonna get there with this approach.

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      01-24-2023, 03:05 PM   #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cos270 View Post
Couldn't agree with these statements more. I still say we should just abolish the entire cruise ship industry and see what kind of reduction in emissions that yields. There's no worse or more gluttonous way to travel in the 21st century, IMO. The loss in jobs would not be that great, and people would still travel to many of the destinations anyway, they would just use air or rail.
That would impact the decision makers who retire on fat pensions to go on cruises ....and then brag about it to their poor neighbour ice users while tut tutting about how the ice is killing the world and causing wildfires etc ...
so not happening....
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      01-24-2023, 03:45 PM   #542
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Aaannnddd ... let's move back to the auto industry and away from "this is what people I don't know think and I'm super confident of it!"
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      01-24-2023, 04:51 PM   #543
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Watched the video and he appeared really p..d off throughout the video. Like an invesor who lost his fortune...
But is there truth in what he says. if so its a revelation.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=G4ZcxeRq...SIkaIECMiOmarE
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      01-24-2023, 05:08 PM   #544
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There is NO WAY in hell that Tesla has a 33% gm on its vehicles... their recently reported number was 25% which is still sky high but not 33% high.

Unless the higher end Model S's bring the margin down which I don't believe for 1 sec.
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      01-25-2023, 12:18 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
There is NO WAY in hell that Tesla has a 33% gm on its vehicles
It's quite possible, certainly for the Model Y, with overall margins at 27% summer 2022:



Of course that time is over now, but I wouldn't be surprised if summer 2022 margins on the MY were 30%+
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      01-25-2023, 12:34 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post

There is NO WAY in hell that Tesla has a 33% gm on its vehicles... their recently reported number was 25% which is still sky high but not 33% high
Also, I was curious as I remember seeing that number so I pulled their disclosures and, yup, 33%:

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      01-25-2023, 09:31 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Also, I was curious as I remember seeing that number so I pulled their disclosures and, yup, 33%:

Interesting - I am looking at the entire P&L reported 9/30/22.

Look at GP over Total Revenue as a %... it comes out to 25%. Perhaps this includes ALL business inclusive of the solar / electric unit etc... which would be surprising given that I would expect that to be the more profitable part of the business.

Either way, either Teslas are quite cheap to build OR far too expensive... seems like this was an easy move on Elon's part.
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      01-25-2023, 11:00 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Interesting - I am looking at the entire P&L reported 9/30/22.

Look at GP over Total Revenue as a %... it comes out to 25%. Perhaps this includes ALL business inclusive of the solar / electric unit etc... which would be surprising given that I would expect that to be the more profitable part of the business.

Either way, either Teslas are quite cheap to build OR far too expensive... seems like this was an easy move on Elon's part.
Something is not expensive if people are seeing the value and paying for it.

It’s likely the former. Cheap to build. Which shows in the quality of the product, as the price point is similar to luxury cars without being so.
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      01-25-2023, 11:07 AM   #549
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Something is not expensive if people are seeing the value and paying for it.

It’s likely the former. Cheap to build. Which shows in the quality of the product, as the price point is similar to luxury cars without being so.
so then the massive price reduction was just for fun? 😂
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      01-25-2023, 11:08 AM   #550
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so then the massive price reduction was just for fun? 😂
I don’t understand your point.
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