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      09-29-2020, 12:14 PM   #23
PeanuKeeyes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dradernh View Post
Is this the diff Dan recommends for your use case?

I ask because he recommended the Wavetrac to me; it's also the unit I would have chosen for myself for street/track duty.
Of all the helical-style LSD’s I looked at, the diffsonline was the least expensive. — If I decide I can afford to go with the LSD in the future, I will probably cough up the extra for the tried and true Wavetrac.

Considering the $4,700.00 pay to play price tag for a season of track time, I’m leaning more towards the “race what I brought” philosophy next year.

do you think an R888R or something similar would hold up for a season or two (6-8 track days, per), as a 245/40 R17 without camber plates? Consider that I am at stock height/springs and will probably not be pushing near the limit for extended periods of time during my first couple years.

I thought I read somewhere that the camber issue became more pressing with the stiffer/lowered suspension mods. But having had H&R’s on this car for a minute last year, it looked as though there was a ton of negative camber induced by the lower springs. Removed them as I heard about people destroying EDC dampers while using them.
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      09-29-2020, 01:55 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by lufsig View Post
How do you like the H&R front sway bar, I know there are not much options for this on the market (only other brands I know are Hotchkis and Dinan) and I wonder how does the H&R compare to those? I'm also looking at replacing the front sway bar, knowing it's a pretty expensive job to do, wondering how much does it improve the car's handling.
The H&R front sway bar reduced the car's front roll; the reduction was noticeable, but nothing dramatic, and that was what we were after. Importantly, it didn't degrade street driving at all, at least not for me.

I installed the bar at the suggestion of TC Kline Racing, the shop whose coilovers and camber plates I'm running. I can't speak to how well the H&R bar would work with a different set of those components.

I'd only do it again the way I did it this time: as the last and final suspension mod on the car and for the purpose of giving it a bit more front-end grip on the track. At $840 installed by my shop, it's fairly pricey for a modest increase in grip. If my car had been street-only, it wouldn't have crossed my mind to put a front bar on it. Just my 2Ę.

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Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes View Post
Considering the $4,700.00 pay to play price tag for a season of track time, I’m leaning more towards the “race what I brought” philosophy next year.

do you think an R888R or something similar would hold up for a season or two (6-8 track days, per), as a 245/40 R17 without camber plates? Consider that I am at stock height/springs and will probably not be pushing near the limit for extended periods of time during my first couple years.

I thought I read somewhere that the camber issue became more pressing with the stiffer/lowered suspension mods. But having had H&R’s on this car for a minute last year, it looked as though there was a ton of negative camber induced by the lower springs. Removed them as I heard about people destroying EDC dampers while using them.
1) I think that's wise. It's awfully easy to get sucked into overspending on this hobby. Plenty of drivers have lots of fun driving unmodified or very lightly-modified cars on the track.

One thing to keep in mind is that learning to adjust to a car's specific behavior, no matter the cause of that behavior, is a major part of the fun of track driving. Got a car that understeers? Good – now work on driving an understeering car well. Got a car whose brake pads are 1 mm away from the backing plates? Good – now work on driving a car using the brakes as little as possible! Seriously, while that's an exercise some of the clubs run (i.e., every driver on the track is doing it), I don't recommend it in a conventional run group.

2) Without optimizing camber and toe, I'm really not sure. R888Rs are what I would do in that circumstance, but that's because that's the minimum tire type I've run on the track. I wonder if something like the Yoko A052 might not be better, especially if you're driving to the track on the 245/40-17s.

Since they know tires so well, why not ask Tire Rack what they think about an Extreme Performance tire that they'd recommend for your use vs. the R888R? If you do that, be sure to let them know that lack of negative camber will be stressing the tire at the track.

3) I wouldn't be surprised, but I've managed to enjoy this hobby for quite a while without ever fully understanding the dynamics of performance suspensions. I relied on race shops and street/race shops for advice, knowing that professionals would be likely to keep me from going off the rails.

In that regard, I have a suggestion: since I don't know any of the BMW-specific shops in CT, Jake Wile at Wile Motorsport is two hours up I-95 from you at 12 Production Rd, Walpole, MA 02081 (508) 668-8080. You'll probably get more out of an in-person conversation with Jake than you will here on the forum. You'll almost certainly learn something new. It's just a thought.
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      09-29-2020, 02:49 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes View Post
do you think an R888R or something similar would hold up for a season or two (6-8 track days, per), as a 245/40 R17 without camber plates? Consider that I am at stock height/springs and will probably not be pushing near the limit for extended periods of time during my first couple years.
If you're optimizing for tire life, I'd go for the Hankook RS4. I run both the R888r and the RS4 (on my other car), and the RS4 is only a little slower, but really really hard to wear out. Currently planning a 14-hour endurance race with only one set of RS4s (and a set of spares in case of accidents).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes View Post
I thought I read somewhere that the camber issue became more pressing with the stiffer/lowered suspension mods.
It's the other way around unfortunately. Here's a typical camber curve on a strut-type suspension (source [1]):



The right part where you get more positive camber is the one you don't want. It happens with more suspension travel -- softer springs, softer sway bars, pushing the car harder.

[1] http://www.multibody.net/teaching/ms...son-multilink/
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      09-29-2020, 06:14 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by dradernh View Post

1) I think that's wise. It's awfully easy to get sucked into overspending on this hobby. Plenty of drivers have lots of fun driving unmodified or very lightly-modified cars on the track.

One thing to keep in mind is that learning to adjust to a car's specific behavior, no matter the cause of that behavior, is a major part of the fun of track driving. Got a car that understeers? Good – now work on driving an understeering car well. Got a car whose brake pads are 1 mm away from the backing plates? Good – now work on driving a car using the brakes as little as possible! Seriously, while that's an exercise some of the clubs run (i.e., every driver on the track is doing it), I don't recommend it in a conventional run group.

2) Without optimizing camber and toe, I'm really not sure. R888Rs are what I would do in that circumstance, but that's because that's the minimum tire type I've run on the track. I wonder if something like the Yoko A052 might not be better, especially if you're driving to the track on the 245/40


In that regard, I have a suggestion: since I don't know any of the BMW-specific shops in CT, Jake Wile at Wile Motorsport is two hours up I-95 from you at 12 Production Rd, Walpole, MA 02081 (508) 668-8080. You'll probably get more out of an in-person conversation with Jake than you will here on the forum. You'll almost certainly learn something new. It's just a thought.

Great suggestions!

I have been going to Munich Motorsports in East Windsor, CT and they really have quite an operation going on there. Worth checking out if you’re ever in the area. — Thank you for the reference! I will hit him up sometime in the near future for sure.

...

Ok, I did it. The last purchase of the season. 17x8 TRMototsports C4’s with 245/40/17 square R-S4’s

Btw, there were only 8 R-S4’s left and on sale on Tirerack

Now I am DONE spending money and on to learning how to drive and having some fun! — Speaking of learning how to control the car in its various setups, what is the learning curve like switching from a street tire to something like the R-S4? Am I going to have that surprise loss of traction moment because they don’t squeal at you like road tires do? What about the fact my last 4 events will likely be on pretty cold days? Either way, I’m excited to not destroy my all seasons, especially as they’re staggered and relatively new.
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      09-29-2020, 07:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes View Post
Ok, I did it. The last purchase of the season. 17x8 TRMototsports C4ís with 245/40/17 square R-S4ís

Now I am DONE spending money and on to learning how to drive and having some fun! ó Speaking of learning how to control the car in its various setups, what is the learning curve like switching from a street tire to something like the R-S4? Am I going to have that surprise loss of traction moment because they donít squeal at you like road tires do? What about the fact my last 4 events will likely be on pretty cold days? Either way, Iím excited to not destroy my all seasons, especially as theyíre staggered and relatively new.
Good for you!

Don't worry about that stuff. Just go out as you usually would, warming yourself and your car and tires up. Then, see what you get in the way of feedback from the tires and your unchanged suspension. Then take it from there. What I mean is: don't hurry, be sensitive to what the car is telling you, because it tells you everything you want and need to know. Principally, that comes to you through your chair and your steering wheel.

If you'll be running with an instructor next time out, share with him or her yours and your car's recent history so that they understand the changes you'll be experiencing on the track. Most will be very good at helping you adapt to anything that may come as a surprise to you.

Bottom line: expect more traction, don't worry about the tires' sound being the indicator for what's going on, and, most of all, dial it up slowly based upon how you feel the car is responding to your inputs. The latter is where a good instructor comes in especially handy Ė let them know what you're experiencing, and listen to their feedback.

You're going to have a great time; I wish I was back in NE to enjoy it with you!
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      10-05-2020, 03:44 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msendit View Post
If you're optimizing for tire life, I'd go for the Hankook RS4. I run both the R888r and the RS4 (on my other car), and the RS4 is only a little slower, but really really hard to wear out. Currently planning a 14-hour endurance race with only one set of RS4s (and a set of spares in case of accidents).



It's the other way around unfortunately. Here's a typical camber curve on a strut-type suspension (source [1]):



The right part where you get more positive camber is the one you don't want. It happens with more suspension travel -- softer springs, softer sway bars, pushing the car harder.

[1] http://www.multibody.net/teaching/ms...son-multilink/

So I finally re-stumbled upon the thing I was referring to regarding the lowering springs causing more positive camber under load:

https://www.1addicts.com/forums/show...&postcount=284
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      10-05-2020, 07:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes View Post
Ok, I did it. The last purchase of the season. 17x8 TRMototsports C4ís with 245/40/17 square R-S4ís
Now I am DONE spending money and on to learning how to drive and having some fun! ó Speaking of learning how to control the car in its various setups, what is the learning curve like switching from a street tire to something like the R-S4? Am I going to have that surprise loss of traction moment because they donít squeal at you like road tires do? What about the fact my last 4 events will likely be on pretty cold days? Either way, Iím excited to not destroy my all seasons, especially as theyíre staggered and relatively new.
I run the RS-4's. Don't worry, they still squeal. A bit. The biggest difference you will notice is the sharpness of turn-in.

Also keep in mind that the tire pressures on this class of tire is different than a typical street tire. Aim for ~35psi hot. (Use the tire display, so useful for this.) If you let them get into the 40 psi range they don't stick as well, and will slide more (and squeal more). (This is based on my experience, and my brother who races them with Lemons cars. Your experience may differ.)
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      10-05-2020, 07:43 PM   #30
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Folks,

Just a comment as I have little to add...what a great thread! I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this entire thread for the last 40 minutes. Good fun!

My vote is the E36 FWIW. Lighter and loads of fun. Although I love my 2 Series, it is a tank compared to my 328is. A wonderful and very quick tank but for sheer driving fun, the E36 wins.

Thanks for the interesting, thoughtful and insightful thread.
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      10-05-2020, 10:26 PM   #31
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Folks,

Just a comment as I have little to add...what a great thread! I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this entire thread for the last 40 minutes. Good fun!

My vote is the E36 FWIW. Lighter and loads of fun. Although I love my 2 Series, it is a tank compared to my 328is. A wonderful and very quick tank but for sheer driving fun, the E36 wins.

Thanks for the interesting, thoughtful and insightful thread.
I hear that, for sure! I am forcing myself at this point to focus on the f22 platform for the remainder of this season and probably next year.. but my restless nights on Craigslist E36 searches will remain actively ensuring dark circles under my eyes at work for months to come. lol.

If I really get into this as a full time hobby, the E36 will manifest itself.
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      10-05-2020, 11:16 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ggggbmw View Post
I run the RS-4's. Don't worry, they still squeal. A bit. The biggest difference you will notice is the sharpness of turn-in.

Also keep in mind that the tire pressures on this class of tire is different than a typical street tire. Aim for ~35psi hot. (Use the tire display, so useful for this.) If you let them get into the 40 psi range they don't stick as well, and will slide more (and squeal more). (This is based on my experience, and my brother who races them with Lemons cars. Your experience may differ.)
Great information, Thank you! I did some experimenting on an old industrial road yesterday and I could not get these things to break loose even in 55 degree weather. (35psi) Iím guessing Tire Rack filled them to 40 but itís been very chilly since they arrived.
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      10-13-2020, 12:00 PM   #33
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Update:

This car with 245/40 square setup on RS4’s and Shockware was so poised at NYST this past weekend. By the end of the day I got going pretty quick, taking a solid line at wheelie hill which ended with a little air and controlled landing. Feeling that lack of LSD a bit, but there’s more to pull out of this thing as is for at least another season.

My instructor drove it at the end of the day and was really blown away by it. He said it felt almost exactly like his E36 M3 with a better interior to which I replied, “you have no idea how much money you just saved me”

I weighed the car before the event and it came in at 3,260lbs. Removed a few interior bits and got it down to 3200. Combine that with 240hp and it really does get this thing close to what I’m looking for in a dedicated track car. Awesome balance, fast enough to do modest passing in the straights.

Suspension stuff:

From what I’ve been reading about the McStrut, it does appear that simply lowering the car, while adding static negative camber, actually brings it to the positive camber side while under load in the corners quicker due to the shortened strut travel. I don’t like mismatched springs/struts but I’m curious about stiffer spring options that ride at stock height. Anybody?

The car didn’t seem to push much at all at NYST at stock height and had really solid turn-in. The tire wear is definitely noticeable on the edges but it doesn’t seem unreasonable. (Pretty durable rubber also though)

Safety stuff:

The Schroth quick fit pro harness is great, for sure. BUT, I’m 6’ 3” and my shoulders come way up over the seat-back. If I get in a collision, spinal compressions are in my future with this thing. I ordered the anti-sub add on but I think the next modification for next year is going to be a bucket seat.

Anyway, the ball is rolling and I’m having a great time with minimal mechanical upgrades.

Next up, Club Motorsports this weekend.
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      11-12-2020, 12:04 PM   #34
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A couple shots from this season. So impressed by this car.
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      11-12-2020, 12:21 PM   #35
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very cool to see this thread / idea evolve into such a rewarding first-timer track season for you.

i would need to pare down some hobbies / expenses (boating ain't cheap either) to make this work for me, but your approach is inspiring!
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      11-12-2020, 01:32 PM   #36
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very cool to see this thread / idea evolve into such a rewarding first-timer track season for you.

i would need to pare down some hobbies / expenses (boating ain't cheap either) to make this work for me, but your approach is inspiring!

Thank you! It was such a joy after being stuck inside for 6 months. And yes, it is pricey even at a barebones level. I have a rough outline for this years expenses below. A few of these mods will serve me for years to come so itís a modest investment. Next year hoping to do about 7 events with no further mods, just consumables for roughly the same amount of $.


YEAR 1: ~ $5,500.00 - $6,000.00

- [x] Brake fluid, Oil/filter X2- $500
- [x] Gas $300 +
- [x] Dinan Shockware - $350
- [x] Bell helmet SA 2015 - $200
- [x] Alpinestars gloves - $100
- [x] HPDE insurance - $700 (3 events)
- [x] Turner tow strap - $90
- [x] SCHROTH Quick Fit Pro - $300
- [x] TR Motorsport C4 17x8 et40 245/40/17 x 4 RS-4ís - $1,500
- [x] Organize event kit - torque wrench, brake tools, oil, coolant, tire pressure gauge, cleaners, tent, cooler, folding chair, etc. - $200

- [x] Thompson Speedway Motorsports Park - (ride along only)

- [x] New York Safety Track (NYST) - $250

- [x] Club Motorsports - $350

- [x] Canaan Motor Club - $250
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      11-12-2020, 04:57 PM   #37
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So impressed by this car.
Good to hear Ė keep the reports and pics coming!

I forget...do you have any more events planned for this fall?
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      11-12-2020, 06:51 PM   #38
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Good to hear Ė keep the reports and pics coming!

I forget...do you have any more events planned for this fall?
Originally planned on doing Palmer but I had a bad feeling about it, especially with barriers and being green and getting too proud in the brake zones. I have been 4 off three times while finding the limits. Not good but better to get that sense of the limitations on tracks with lots of runoff. By my last run at Canaan, which was 40 minutes straight, I managed to feel a consistency and focus with no goofs and it was a great way to end the season. Keeping pace with intermediate run group so feeling much more confident.

More next year!

Thanks for all your input and following my journey, itís been fun
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Daily/Track | 228i M sport 6 spd slick-top | THP | LED | DINAN Shockware | Millway Camber Plates | MPE | P3 Gauge | Schroth Harness | Powerflex LCA/TA Bushings | TRMotorsports C4 R-S4 | APEX ARC-8 MPS AS3+ | HAWK 5.0 | PFC11/08 f&r | Stainless brake lines | RBF 600
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      11-13-2020, 08:20 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by PeanuKeeyes View Post
...I have been 4 off three times while finding the limits...
yikes! but i guess it comes with the hobby. there's a saying in boating...there's two types of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who will.

definitely makes me want to wait to pursue any sort of track hobby until i can have a dedicated car.
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my garage:'21 F87 M2C, 6MT; '15 F22 x-drive coupe sport line, '17 F25 x-drive28i SAV, '06 E90 x-drive sedan
previous rides: '87 E30 MT convertible, '92 E36 sedan, '99 E36 MT convertible, '07 E83 x-drive30 SAV, '09 E91 x-drive wagon, '12 E89 Z4 s-drive28i MT M-sport,
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      02-03-2021, 03:21 AM   #40
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I have the FBO E36 and FBO 228i. Go with the E36 on the track. E36 chassis is a lot better than the F22, compare to the handing or feeling. The first step for the f22 is bushing, camber plate and sway bar.
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      03-05-2021, 07:00 AM   #41
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Get an accusump for the oiling issues (some more detailed threads on it elsewhere in these forums); it can transfer to another car when you move to a dedicated track build. Even this may be overkill, but it would have been on my short list if I stuck with the 228 (that and upgraded cooling, esp my auto trans). You are right about running stock tires for another reason - you learn much better with worse tires, and make your mistakes at a lot less speed and more time to catch them. Most of the pro level advice I've gotten is to either run stock, or perhaps even more durable but less grippy summer tires until I really get a feel for catching slides. I found the Potenza s007 to be a good street track combo, with much stiffer carcass that didn't eat outer edges as badly; I have no camber correction (That was atop the short list, probably pays for itself with the first set of tires).
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      03-05-2021, 08:30 AM   #42
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Yeah, the accusump is an idea I’ve been entertaining for a minute. Especially with there being enough room in the engine bay to mount it with the little 4-popper. If I were going to upgrade sways or add negative camber, an accusump or upgraded OE sump would be a prerequisite. However, there is plenty of room in the pan to overfill a bit safely, and for me, I think this will be a sufficient precaution. Lots of tracks to choose from over here also, so just picking the ones with to avoid sustained high lateral G’s. — good to know about the S007’s! — I ran Hankook RS4’s and will continue with them this year. They’re definitely durable enough and help with turn-in a lot. I leave the nannies on, sport + mode. This year I will turn it off at Canaan, if it feels appropriate, as it is a forgiving track and I have the most seat time at that one.
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      03-05-2021, 10:25 AM   #43
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Thanks to everyone on here for the great information. Truly awesome! Moving forward, my idea is to mostly concentrate on the "driving what I brought" philosophy with minimal upgrades. Below is a general outline of the mods I have done so far. I may end up with the E36 next year or just diving in to a full build of this car. Yet to be seen.

Considering the other ongoing maintenance items that I won't bother listing here, this is the most I'm willing to throw at this car for the time being in terms of making it a solid street/track performer for my level.

Track Season 1: (2020) HPDE only

* P3 OBDII Oil/Coolant gauge
* HAWK 5.0 pads - street/track
* ATE DOT 4
* Turner tow straps
* Bell Helmet
* DINAN Shockware
* Schroth quick fit pro harness
* TR Motorsport C4 17x8 et40
* 245/40/17 Square - Hankook R-S4’s

Track Season 2: 2021 HPDE only

- stainless brake lines
- Motul 600
- PFC 11/08 pads (front,rear)
- Zimmermann rotors
- Track alignment
- Turner subframe bushings
- 245/40/17 Square - Hankook R-S4’s
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Daily/Track | 228i M sport 6 spd slick-top | THP | LED | DINAN Shockware | Millway Camber Plates | MPE | P3 Gauge | Schroth Harness | Powerflex LCA/TA Bushings | TRMotorsports C4 R-S4 | APEX ARC-8 MPS AS3+ | HAWK 5.0 | PFC11/08 f&r | Stainless brake lines | RBF 600

Last edited by PeanuKeeyes; 04-27-2021 at 09:58 AM..
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      04-27-2021, 09:39 AM   #44
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Watkins Glen was a great test of the cars ability. It was my first event driving with NASA in DE-2, the paddock was slammed, and the weather was perfect. I really like this group a lot! The debriefing sessions were informative and it was a largely drama-free event.

I started the day with a ride-along session in my friends E36 M3. It was wearing the same tire set-up as mine, (17Ē RS4ís square) and was sporting H&R sport springs. He is a fantastic driver, and competes with a fully specíd FR-S, and he was not very impressed with the M3 on track, to say the least. I thought it felt pretty good from the passenger seat. It doesnít feel more planted than the 2 series on track, and we both agreed on that.

Upon reviewing onboard footage, I was averaging 2:20-2:30 lap times with modest traffic and some botched braking. 120-130mph on the back straight, +100 through the Sís.

I had some brake issues early on in the day which forced me to be on them a bit earlier than I would like on entry, but the PFC-11/08 split front/rear seems to work well overall, especially for trail braking.

I think this car could be competitive in Time Trials (TT-4) with a 30hp bump, and keeping the chassis weight about where it is now at 3200lbs, giving it a power/weight ratio of about 12ish.

So there it is folks.. The 228i wins. Build thread incoming...
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