[kisho]

Was wondering if anyone here has heard of Davosa? Are they a reputable brand? I haven't heard of them till now. Also would like to know what you guys think of the Skeleton.

http://www.davosa.com/index.php?id=3...id=2&wid=1&L=1

Technical details
Model: DAVOSA Classic Skeleton Automatic
Classic Skeleton Automatic - ref. 161.010.15
Swiss quality movement (Sellita SW 200) in elaboré and soignée design – skeletonised, rhodium-plated, with pearlised bridges, Geneva finish and blued screws
Sapphire crystal
Stainless steel case
Diameter: 40.0 mm
Height: 9.8 mm
Black leather crocodile grain strap or anthracite velour leather strap (both handcrafted)
Price: 1498 Euros

[tony20009]

Yes, I've heard of them. Yes, they're reputable.

I don't have much of an opinion re: their skeleton because I'm really not "into" skeleton watches to begin with. There're only two skeleton type watches that I like aesthetically at all from among all the ones I've see so far in my life and neither of them is something worth mentioning as an alternative to the Davosa. As a result of not liking the look, I haven't put any effort into learning much about any other than the two I like.

As for the movement itself, the SW200, it's a good movement. Why Sellita's spec sheet (http://www.sellita.ch/images/stories...3_20150226.pdf) distinguishes between Novodiac and Incabloc shock springs is beyond me for they are both made by Incabloc. The shapes are different, and presumably there's some difference in the shock protection afforded by each, but I don't know specifically what the impact of the different shapes is. (https://watchotaku.atlassian.net/wik...ock+protection) Given that skeleton movements have less bridge structure, I presume that the more protective spring shape is the one that'd be used, but I don't know that to be so because, as I said, I don't really know what the tangible difference is between the two spring designs.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't worry about it unless I've identified multiple skeleton watches that I like and they have differing shock protection approaches. (Even then, I don't know how much I'd dwell on or research it.) I'd just keep in mind that skeleton watch movements aren't, in general, built to be as "tough" as what one might call a general use watch and adjust my usage patter for a skeleton watch accordingly. It strikes me not as something one needs to "know" a lot about, but rather as something where applying a little common sense is all that's needed.

All the best.

[kisho]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Yes, I've heard of them. Yes, they're reputable.

I don't have much of an opinion re: their skeleton because I'm really not "into" skeleton watches to begin with. There're only two skeleton type watches that I like aesthetically at all from among all the ones I've see so far in my life and neither of them is something worth mentioning as an alternative to the Davosa. As a result of not liking the look, I haven't put any effort into learning much about any other than the two I like.

As for the movement itself, the SW200, it's a good movement. Why Sellita's spec sheet (http://www.sellita.ch/images/stories...3_20150226.pdf) distinguishes between Novodiac and Incabloc shock springs is beyond me for they are both made by Incabloc. The shapes are different, and presumably there's some difference in the shock protection afforded by each, but I don't know specifically what the impact of the different shapes is. (https://watchotaku.atlassian.net/wik...ock+protection) Given that skeleton movements have less bridge structure, I presume that the more protective spring shape is the one that'd be used, but I don't know that to be so because, as I said, I don't really know what the tangible difference is between the two spring designs.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't worry about it unless I've identified multiple skeleton watches that I like and they have differing shock protection approaches. (Even then, I don't know how much I'd dwell on or research it.) I'd just keep in mind that skeleton watch movements aren't, in general, built to be as "tough" as what one might call a general use watch and adjust my usage patter for a skeleton watch accordingly. It strikes me not as something one needs to "know" a lot about, but rather as something where applying a little common sense is all that's needed.

All the best.

Wow, thanks a lot Tony. That was very informative. I really just starting out and I've been looking for a sub $2k watch. I myself wasn't sure if I was really into skeleton watches, I just thought that it looked pretty cool. After I posted the op, I actually found myself gravitating more towards purchasing a Nomos/Stowa. I'm really liking the classy minimalist look. I'm thinking of getting a used one first. The one I've been looking at is the Nomos Tangente Norma.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by kisho

Wow, thanks a lot Tony. That was very informative. I really just starting out and I've been looking for a sub $2k watch. I myself wasn't sure if I was really into skeleton watches, I just thought that it looked pretty cool. After I posted the op, I actually found myself gravitating more towards purchasing a Nomos/Stowa. I'm really liking the classy minimalist look. I'm thinking of getting a used one first. The one I've been looking at is the Nomos Tangente Norma.

By all means, get whatever watch suits you. If minimalism appeals to you, there are many executions of that theme in the watch world.

Skeleton style minimalism:

Corum Bridge watch -- you'll likely need to save up for this one as it's well above the $2K mark you have in mind right now.



Contemporary-ish minimalism

Keaton Myrick







Movado -- there're no shortage of Movado styles that are minimal in design. The most well known is their so-called Museum Watch, which is an icon all its own.



Movado Eliro



Traditional Minimalism

Nomos' products certainly have that. You'll find it in any number ofother watches. It's characterized by a rather conventional watch having more "stuff" on the dial than does a Movado such as the Museum Watch or Eliro, but less stuff than one'll find on, say a Breguet 5177, which is arguably one of the "classic" watches that truly fits with a minimalist aesthetic as well.

Breguet 5177



More often, however, minimalist traditional watches look like a Piaget Altiplano, ALS Saxonia thin or any of several Vacheron Constantin models (only one pictured below).

Piaget Altiplano



ALS Saxonia Thin



Vacheron Constantin 1955 Ultra Thin



Of course, you don't need me to define what minimalist means. Indeed, if you think a watch having even more "stuff" on the face than the ones above is still "minimalist," so be it.

Note:
I pictured/mentioned the watches I did above for the sake of their look and because they are watches with which I'm familiar. I'm not at all suggesting they be alternatives to the Nomos you have in mind.

NOMOS
Nomos make fine watches. About the only thing I'd say you may want to ask your seller about is servicing. Find out if sending it back to Nomos is your sole realistic option for having it "tuned up" from time to time and ask what they currently charge to do so.

Just by way of explaining the above statements, one of the major things Rolex have going for themselves is the vast network of watchmakers who can service a Rolex Oyster movement and the (relatively) reasonable prices ($400 - $600, usually) at which one can get that work performed.

It's really nifty to have a "not so commonly seen" watch that is really quite nice as well. Just bear in mind that when one does so, one necessarily gives up some of the "ease of ownership" appeal that accompanies far more ubiquitous watches like Omegas, Seikos, Rolexes, etc. It's quite the same thing that happens when on buys cool, but uncommon cars.

All the best.

[kisho]

Wow thanks for such a thorough post. I'm liking the Traditional Minimalism examples most, especially the Breguet and the ALS. However, for ALS, I'd choose this Saxonia over the Thin. I must like my numerals over ticks, especially in a stylish typeface like the Breguet.



Through my searches, I found that the most expensive watches all have some sort of gold casing. Even the ALS pictured above is in white gold. Are there any benefits from this? Like weight perhaps or is it just for the "bling" factor?

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by kisho

Wow thanks for such a thorough post. I'm liking the Traditional Minimalism examples most, especially the Breguet and the ALS. However, for ALS, I'd choose this Saxonia over the Thin. I must like my numerals over ticks, especially in a stylish typeface like the Breguet.

[pic deleted]

Through my searches, I found that the most expensive watches all have some sort of gold casing. Even the ALS pictured above is in white gold. Are there any benefits from this? Like weight perhaps or is it just for the "bling" factor?

Red:
Well, a great many certainly do. One very fine and pricey watch that doesn't is F. P. Journe's Chronometer Bleu. It's case is tantalum, although the movement itself is gold. Tantalum is considerably more scratch and ding resistant than is gold. A fair number of high end watches are offered with platinum cases.

Blue:
While it is true that pure platinum is harder than pure gold, alloyed 18kt white gold is harder than is jewelry grade platinum, which is usually 95% platinum. Platinum, however, is less malleable than is 18kt gold, and so it is a bit better for holding diamonds, and that may yield some benefit if the watch case has diamonds or other stones/objects set into it.

As a practical matter, unlike women's diamond engagement rings, particularly those having solitaire settings, the gemstones set into a watch case won't typically see the same sort of routine "punishment," not only because there isn't usually a lone stone sitting up high with the prongs holding it waiting to catch on and be bent by all manners of things, but also because in the pave setting the stone centers tend to stand higher than do the posts that hold them in place by securing the edges of the stones.

From the consumer's POV, no, there's not really any practical benefit to a watch having a gold case or movement except for watches whose design don't allow the watch to be made water resistant. In general, minute repeaters aren't water resistant (FP Journe's is an exception) because of the pusher that activates the repeater complication. For such watches, having a gold movement helps combat corrosion because corrosive "stuff" is less keen to adhere to gold. The thing is that rhodium plating produces the same benefit and keeps the cost of the movement down. (As go minute repeaters, I have no preference between gold, gold plated or rhodium plated movements.) Outside of that, gold is just a more luxurious/indulgent metal. I suppose if one is allergic to metals other than gold, that's an advantage, but otherwise, no there's no specific benefit that I am aware of.

From the maker/seller's POV, sure, there's a huge benefit: absolute profit. The higher the price of an item, the greater the absolute profit the seller/maker will receive.

Other:
Barring some specific reason to want the gold version of a given watch, if a watch is offered in gold and stainless steel, I'll buy the steel version. I can think of only one watch for which one may prefer the gold version over the steel version and that watch is Arnold & Son's Perpetual Moon. The steel version has a black dial and its Moon disk doesn't have stars on it; the gold versions come either with a cream or cobalt blue dial and the disk does depict stars. Otherwise all three versions are the same, but for, of course, the price.

Moon Disk for the gold versions of the Perpetual Moon




Perpetual Moon









All the best

P.S.
I don't know about you, but I have to look very closely at polished steel, white gold and platinum to discern the difference among them. When the three are side by side, it's not hard to tell. Just looking at a watch or ring by itself at a glance, I pretty consistently can't tell. I can tell yellow or rose/pink gold (or metals plated with those gold colors) fairly easily.

[kisho]

Great info Tony. My next question would be if any of these watches are actually worth what what they cost? I'm starting to think no. I also feel the same as you, if given a choice, I'd pick the stainless steel.

As for the Perpetual Moon, I'm with you, the gold version with the blue dial is much nicer. Though I wouldn't be against having the steel version either.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by kisho

Great info Tony. My next question would be if any of these watches are actually worth what what they cost? I'm starting to think no. I also feel the same as you, if given a choice, I'd pick the stainless steel.

As for the Perpetual Moon, I'm with you, the gold version with the blue dial is much nicer. Though I wouldn't be against having the steel version either.

The short answer is "probably not." In truth, things are a bit more complicated than that.

If you are of a mind to find a rational basis for establishing the worth of a watch, you won't find it. The fact is that above about $500, none of them are "worth it" if a rational cost-benefit analysis is what one intends to perform. The reason is that there's simply no functional benefit that any watch provides that can justify its cost.

One can pay thousands of dollars for a Rolex Oyster, but one can obtain the same build quality from similarly styled sport watches costing ~$500, sometimes even less. Indeed, any number of dive and other sport style watches, particularly those offered by myriad micro-brands, are built as well, sometimes better than is any Rolex Oyster.

One can pay about $3K for the least expensive chronometer grade watches, but the difference between the timekeeping accuracy of a chronometer and that of a non-chronometer is generally about six to twenty seconds per day. And that's just with mechanical watches. Pick a quartz watch, any quartz watch, and there's not one mechanical watch on the planet that can best it's timekeeping accuracy, which is generally stated in terms of seconds per month or year.

The closest one can get to finding any sort of "worth-it-ness" in a watch is in finding a watch that offers something that one cannot find in a competing watch. For example, consider Jacob & Co's Caligula watch. It's an animated erotica watch that uses a modified chronograph movement to display the act of copulation.

(

)

There are certainly other erotica watches that have been, perhaps even still, made, but none of them are animated. So if one really wants the animation, there's really no alternative. Now, the Caligula retailed for ~$70K, but insofar as there are no alternatives to it, sure, it's worth it.

Similarly, the Arnold & Son moonphase watch I pictured above isn't the only moonphase watch on the market, and it's not the only one that's accurate to ~125 years of moonphases, but it's the only one that looks like it looks. So again, in that regard, it's worth it.

Likewise, there are functional aspects of some mechanical watches that only certain makers offer. For example, the vast majority of makers don't offer the sidereal time or repeater function. Those that do charge very hefty sums for them. If one insists on having those features in a mechanical watch, then paying the required amount is worth it. If one can get by obtaining that information from, say, one's cell phone, it's probably not worth it.

The final conceivably tangible dimension of "worth it" pertains strictly to watches as investment items. I'm sure you can come by folks who'll regale you with their tales of having sold their watch at a profit. I'm sure that's happened for some folks. Be that as it may, watches are financially "worth it" in a way that can be relied upon to yield economic returns in only two situations:

• One is in the business of buying and selling watches
• One buys specific watches (not just a Rolex or any Patek (or any other make), for example, but a very specific Rolex or Patek, one having given serial and model numbers that are in great demand by collectors) that have already demonstrated that they consistently increase in value and there is nothing indicating that trend will stop.

Even in the second situation, the vast majority of financial instruments are better investments. The fact is that watches are made to tell time and to make one feel something. They aren't made to make money for anyone other than the maker and its retail selling partners.


The preceding discussion attempts to address the tangible aspects of "worth it." There is also an intangible aspect. For example, if one just is fascinated in some regard with watches, one may want to collect them. In collecting them, one might define a set of goals for one's collecting activities and for the collection one hopes to build. Collecting watches is no different than collecting anything else. One does it to satisfy one's interest, but make no mistake, collecting of any sort is nothing but an indulgence. So, if collecting watches is an activity that contributes to one's happiness of sorts, to the extent that a watch one buys makes one happy, it's worth it, provided it, or having it, in fact does make one as happy as one expects it to.

As goes the "happy factor," my observation is that quite a lot of folks who buy pricey watches have unrealistic expectations and end up dissatisfied with the watch. I can think of a ton of reasons why their expectations weren't met, but in the end, it comes down to folks not really knowing what they want and why, but nonetheless spending tidy sums (to them) in the hope that by doing so they'll find it.

The reality is that high end watches are all luxury goods. Call me crazy, but when when I look to buy a luxury personal property item, I ask myself whether after buying it I lost it the very next day, would I be willing and able to go back to the store the following day and replace it (assuming another one is available)? If I can answer "yes," I'll probably buy it. If my answer is no, I probably won't.

Why that approach? Mainly because luxury items are indulgences. They are things I can do without; everyone can do without them. So, in my mind, a thing is no luxury if its loss constitutes a "big hit" from which I cannot instantly recover. Instead, if it's so dear that I can't recover unaffected -- aside from being irked that I lost the first one, aside from having to spend twice the price to still have only one item instead of two -- it's more a burden or strain than it is a luxury.

And that's the thing about luxury watches, and being willing and able to spend the sums need buy ones like those noted earlier in this thread...people buy them because they can, not because there's any good or pressing reason to do so. Might there be an exception or two to that? I suppose there could be, but for most folks, overwhelmingly most folks, there isn't.

All the best.

[kisho]

Once again thanks for the thorough answer. The erotica watch made me laugh, didn't know those existed. As for the rest of your response, to me, it essentially boils down to "worth is in the eye of the of the beholder" or something of that sort. Certain functions/features a particular watch needs or rather the buyer wants it to have is relative to their own personal sense of worth. Like you said,

Originally Posted by tony20009

...people buy them because they can, not because there's any good or pressing reason to do so. Might there be an exception or two to that? I suppose there could be, but for most folks, overwhelmingly most folks, there isn't.

There's so much truth to that statement that I can't believe I didn't think of it in the first place. Also, I've never actually thought about it enough to express it in words but but your approach is something I've been following subconsciously, not word for word, but very close. Every luxury item I've bought always went through the process of whether it would be a burden/strain and if I'd like it enough to get a second (assuming there would be a desire to get a second one). FYI, I ended up purchasing a a Nomos Tangente Norma off of WUS.

Lastly, thanks for all the info. I owe you a drink for teaching me so much

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by kisho

Once again thanks for the thorough answer. The erotica watch made me laugh, didn't know those existed. As for the rest of your response, to me, it essentially boils down to "worth is in the eye of the of the beholder" or something of that sort. Certain functions/features a particular watch needs or rather the buyer wants it to have is relative to their own personal sense of worth. Like you said,

There's so much truth to that statement that I can't believe I didn't think of it in the first place. Also, I've never actually thought about it enough to express it in words but but your approach is something I've been following subconsciously, not word for word, but very close. Every luxury item I've bought always went through the process of whether it would be a burden/strain and if I'd like it enough to get a second (assuming there would be a desire to get a second one). FYI, I ended up purchasing a a Nomos Tangente Norma off of WUS.

Lastly, thanks for all the info. I owe you a drink for teaching me so much

You're welcome.

You don't don't owe me anything and your stated thanks is more than sufficient.

Nomos make lovely, well made watches, and I'm sure you'll really enjoy wearing yours. I know the standard Tangente is a manual wind watch. Is the Tangente Norma an automatic version or just a slightly differently styled one? (No need to find out if you don't know...I was just curious.)

I think now is a good time to buy a Nomos for in the past lustrum they've gotten a lot of positive press. Positive press is really, really good for letting manufacturers raise the prices and Nomos' have been creeping up bit by bit. Better to get one while they are still "creeping" instead of running at full tilt. LOL

All the best.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by kisho

Wow thanks for such a thorough post. I'm liking the Traditional Minimalism examples most, especially the Breguet and the ALS. However, for ALS, I'd choose this Saxonia over the Thin. I must like my numerals over ticks, especially in a stylish typeface like the Breguet.

[pic deleted]

Through my searches, I found that the most expensive watches all have some sort of gold casing. Even the ALS pictured above is in white gold. Are there any benefits from this? Like weight perhaps or is it just for the "bling" factor?

I really love that Breguet model as well. I like it so much that I almost bought it instead of the Marine that ended up being my collection's representative from Breguet. The sole reason I didn't get a 5177 is that I feared it'd compete, unsuccessfully, for wrist time with my Patek 3520. So I got the Marine, which I never feel inclined to wear on the occasions when I would wear the 3520.





The 3520 has been my "uber dressy" watch ever since I got it back in the early 1990s (they didn't then cost anything like what the comparable current model, the 5120, does today) and it has that same minimalist vibe, albeit with a neoclassical edge. Then again, neoclassical style/design is very "me." The thing is that I pretty much only wear it with formal attire or very, very dressy suits.

For example, if I were to build another home for myself, it'd look not too different from the West Building of the National Gallery of Art in D.C. I don't know why, but I just love how, at least to my eye, neoclassical lines and themes work well with the designs from the 15th century to the 21st century. I just feel it is both modern and classical at the same time. The 3520/5120 strikes me that way as well, and a bit more so than does the Breguet 5177.

FWIW, there was also an Arabic numeral version of the 3520.



Like the Roman numeral version, it's ~33mm in diameter. A lot of folks these days, presumably because watch companies pushed larger watches beginning around 2000 or so, a lot of folks would think it "too small." There's no question that it's noticeably smaller than are many contemporary watches, but "too small" isn't what I think it is, especially for a simple, un-bejeweled dress watch, which, IMO, is supposed to look nice, be subtly styled so as to "work" with a wide variety of looks, and compliment one's outfit, but not draw attention to itself.

The 3520/5120 does exactly that. Put it on a grosgrain band rather than skin strap and it dresses down quite aptly and looks great with more casual outfits such as khakis (long or short) or jeans and a starched shirt.

This isn't the 3520/5120, but it's close enough that you'll get the idea.




The Nomos you got will have the same sort of sartorial flexibility. If the mood strikes you, give a grosgrain bands or NATO-style bands a try. (J. Press sell lots of different colors of grosgrain bands. Brooks Brothers and J. Crew do too.)



If nothing else, if one plans to wear daily a watch that was delivered with a skin strap, opting to mount it on a grosgrain or NATO-style strap keeps the skin one in good order for when one wants to dress up and be fancy.

I don't know about Nomos' straps, but I do know that sometimes finding a suitable replacement skin strap can be a pain in the butt. I found that I'd put off replacing one that was beginning to show signs of wear and invariably, the time would come when I really wanted a nice, shiny skin strap, but mine was looking a bit long in the tooth. Then I'd find myself having to fit in a rush to some store to get whatever they had that would fit the watch instead of getting one that I really wanted.

(Yes, it's entirely, as they say, a "first world problem." But hey, I spend multiple thousands of dollars on multiple watches, and, at the risk of seeming immodest, I live what, by any standard, is surely a "charmed life." What other kind of problems am I going to have? LOL)

All the best.

[kisho]

Originally Posted by tony20009

You're welcome.

You don't don't owe me anything and your stated thanks is more than sufficient.

Nomos make lovely, well made watches, and I'm sure you'll really enjoy wearing yours. I know the standard Tangente is a manual wind watch. Is the Tangente Norma an automatic version or just a slightly differently styled one? (No need to find out if you don't know...I was just curious.)

I think now is a good time to buy a Nomos for in the past lustrum they've gotten a lot of positive press. Positive press is really, really good for letting manufacturers raise the prices and Nomos' have been creeping up bit by bit. Better to get one while they are still "creeping" instead of running at full tilt. LOL

All the best.

It's a standard manual Nomos Tangente, but instead of a polished stainless steel case, it has a black PVD coated stainless steel case instead. It has also been hardened, based on what I've read in reviews. From what I can tell and based on the research I've done, that's essentially the only difference. They're obviously discontinued now. Production started in 2010, but I didn't find out when it stopped. I purchased #57639, wish I got a nicer number, but that's me being picky.

http://www.clubnomos.de/tangente_norma.htm

Yes! I know exactly what you mean. I haven't been in the watch game long but I've been lusting after a Nomos the moment I accidentally saw a picture of it floating somewhere on the interwebs. I don't even remember where I saw it, but after 6+ months, I finally pulled the trigger. Other than the Tangente, I'm also quite fond of the Ahoi Atlantik and Lambda Deep Blue.

I've also been lusting for Nomos Tangente/Tangomat Bauhaus rival, the Stowa Antea. I'll probably pick up one of those variants as well. However, I'll probably buy a used one as I'm not so fond of their new logo. I think the older one with the enlarged scripted "S" looks more classy.

[kisho]

I think, at least at the moment, I'm more into Arabic numerals over Roman numerals. Though I'm not apposed to owning a Roman numeral faced watch and one, or more, would/will probably find their way into my collection. For the 3520 thought, I like the Roman numerals more than the Arabic numerals. I think it has to do with the fact that the Arabic version has gold hands and numerals. It feels like there's just too much gold While the Roman version has black hands and numerals which give more contrast to the dial/bezel and match with the strap.

I also know exactly what you mean when you mentioned the National Gallery of Art in D.C. It really does relate to the 3520/5120. My brother, who is currently backpacking across Europe, loves architecture and art. So I've been fed a lot of info on the subject and seen many of his drawings. Anyway, back on topic, the Breguet, to me, is just classic/tradition. I don't feel that it's quite modern at all. This is most likely because of the typeset.

I absolutely agree that the current watches are getting larger and larger. I, like yourself, like the smaller watches. For me it's 33-36.5mm, but of course there will be a time that I find a watch that I like and it's only available in 39mm lol. &yes, they shouldn't draw attention to themselves and just work with almost anything.

Yes, that is one of the defining reasons I got the Norma before the standard Tangente. For my first serious watch, at least serious to me, I wanted to have a large amount of versatility. As far as replacement straps go, I've been using www.thestrapsmith.com, he hand makes his straps and I've been very pleased with the quality and the price. Also, standard replacements from Nomos are quite affordable as well, at $110 per set. I'd actually really like to try throwing on the textile strap that comes on the Ahoi onto the Norma, but alas the Norma and Ahoi have different sized lugs, 18/20mm.

Haha yes, many do live quite the "charmed" life, some more charmed than others.

[M_Six]

Originally Posted by kisho

As far as replacement straps go, I've been using www.thestrapsmith.com, he hand makes his straps and I've been very pleased with the quality and the price.

Bookmarked. Thanks for that link. Looks like a great source for straps.

[kisho]

Originally Posted by M_Six

Bookmarked. Thanks for that link. Looks like a great source for straps.

Glad I could help. Rob does fantastic work, he can customize anything to your liking.

Rob also provides some Nato straps, but if you're really into Nato straps, I'd recommend www.natostrapsco.com. They discount based on quantity purchased:

Buy 2 Straps get 10% off each item ($11.25 ea)
Buy 3-4 Straps get 20% off each item ($10.00 ea)
Buy 5 or More Straps get 30% off each item ($8.75 ea)