06-04-2015, 01:12 AM | #89 | |
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More octane allows you to be more aggressive with your tuning with less chance of detonation - explosion on the upstroke of the piston - no bueno. Higher octane primarily gives you a bigger bang and takes heat out of the explosion allowing you to adjust the two biggest things that increase power - timing and boost. Ethanol mixes increase octane and burn cooler but the downside is you need more volume compared to traditional fuels which can be a challenge with the limits of todays direct injection motors. We had to run 30% more Ignite 108 ethanol fuel in our pro drift car but we were able to get over 800 whp out of our S54. The challenge is as you add more octane, more boost and more advanced timing your tune needs to be more precise - the margin of error gets very thin as things escalate. This is where one of the core debates starts - comparing ECU flash tuning and piggyback technologies - which one is technically more more precise as you get closer to the razors edge. Last edited by GSR Technik; 06-04-2015 at 11:00 AM.. |
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06-04-2015, 02:45 AM | #90 | |
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This is what we think we know about the FASTA data logs and the latest Flexray based ECUs. The FASTA logs are not logging all data 100% of the time. If they were that's a crap load of data and you would need a couple of RAID storage arrays in your trunk to store all the data that would be generated between dealer visits. I won’t get into what CARB is trying to do out here in CA where they are proposing a system that would constantly monitor emissions, transmit that data from your car and automatically generate a notice and/or fine if you are out of compliance. I’ll let the privacy advocates tackle that one. FASTA data capture is event based, so something happens that is outside of a parameter which then captures a certain set of data based on logic built into the system. FASTA logging can also be turned on as part of a diagnostic function at the dealer using Group Tester 1 that logs all kinds of data and is typically uploaded to BMW AG for data warehousing and analysis. Now since FASTA data capture is event based, if you change the parameters within the ECU code that is triggering the event the data never gets logged as part of the FASTA data set. Now this is heavily dependent on the knowledge of the tuner. Most of the competitor tuner files we have seen change about 30 variables, ours typically involve more than 130 changes, many of these related not to tuning but eliminating events that trigger data sets that get recorded in the FASTA logs. Now the piggyback fan boys out there that say ECU flash tunes are totally detectable and piggyback tunes can in no way be detected are full of sh!& and really don’t know what the hell they are talking about. The auto clear function in some of those systems is clearing codes out of the ODBII messaging framework but all of that is being recorded as part of the FASTA data sets. Any parameter that the ECU sees as outside of a particular min/max bound is potentially being recorded in the FASTA data set. And I can say there are a lot of events that are setup to trigger based on all kinds of variables the ECU is monitoring. I can say with some confidence that I think we are doing a pretty good job in understanding these new ECUs, how they behave, what events are generating data sets and how to safely get power out of them while leveraging a lot of the safety features already built into the ECU. I can’t say with 100% confidence that we’ve figured out all the things that would generate data that gets captured and reported via the dealer systems. I do feel the piggyback systems are more exposed to the FASTA logs than our tunes. With all our customers I’ve maintained that there are empirical tests that can be done on a car that will demonstrate if certain things have been changed with physical access to the car - things such as driving a car beyond the speed limiter or physically logging boost. Also if a tuned ECU is sent to embedded systems engineer familiar with the ECU code they can determine what binary blocks have been changed. I’d also say there are a lot of crappy ECU tuners (some good) but mostly unknowledgeable that have acquired the technology and stole or bought files from someone else but really don’t know what they are doing. I think that is definitely one of the downsides of being in the ECU flash business – a lot of tuners trying to "fake it til they make it." The benefit of being in the piggyback business is the barrier of entry is much higher because it involves hardware expertise and manufacturing which is not easy to fake. I also stand by my previous statement that ECU tuning is a far better way to tune than piggyback (technically) when it comes down to the core tune BUT piggyback systems have the ability to add some really cool features that are impossible to implement within an ECU flash tune like gauge hijacking and map switching for things like fuel scaling. Nick… Last edited by GSR Technik; 06-04-2015 at 10:57 AM.. |
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06-04-2015, 11:42 AM | #91 | ||
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"Loading a map" onto the JB4 would not be like you used to on the COBB. They are completely different systems. The COBB maps were ECU flashes, while the piggyback is just that a piggy back, a bypass. You can't just load a pro tune map onto a Jb4 that will flash the ECU. The best example is the N54 where you can run a COBB map with a JB4 because the COBB is a flash tune whereas the Jb4 gives you ability to change boost control and guage fun. I just do not see how you can compare the two as the same and say one is shit when they are both very different approaches to achieving more power. Apples and oranges. Not trying to knock you or hate. I just want to clarify the distinction here. They are two different things, and an ECU flash is always better.
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06-04-2015, 11:48 AM | #92 | |
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06-04-2015, 11:56 AM | #93 | ||
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I 100% believe that a pro tune for your specific car is the best possible thing. But that is still an ECU Flash not a piggy back. And to top it off GSR doesn't even pro tune. It's the same off the shelf flash for every N20 it's not a individual engine specific tune for each individual car. Either way the point I was trying to make was that COBB is not a piggyback and it does not equal a JB4 even when you do not consider what maps are used. Period. COBB gave users the ability to flash it themselves. But it's still a flash. It's no different than GSR in the sense that it is an ECU Flash. Now I will say I think GSR's tech and tune is miles ahead of any off the shelf COBB ones that existed. I'm not trying to equate COBBs shitty off the shelf tunes with GSR either. But for those who do not understand the difference it's worth the clarification. Not trying to hurt feelings here. Just wanted to clarify a point which I feel was getting conflated. But the lesson from Charlie is still very very true, specific tunes for your specific engine in your specific car is the best possible route. Period. Off the shelf ECU flash like GSR is the next best thing. Something COBB like that doesn't exist for our engine yet would be next. And then a piggy back. That's the order of best for your individual car if you want to push it to its limits.
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06-04-2015, 12:12 PM | #94 | |
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06-04-2015, 12:17 PM | #95 | ||
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06-04-2015, 01:19 PM | #96 | |
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06-04-2015, 03:21 PM | #97 | |
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Nick... |
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06-04-2015, 03:38 PM | #98 | ||
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And great to know you offer pro tunes as well. Way to be the best in the game. Can't wait to hear what else comes out of your mad genius shop.
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06-04-2015, 03:42 PM | #99 | |
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06-04-2015, 04:02 PM | #100 | |
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So what kind of bottom end upgrades are we taking about for stage 3? Oil baffles perhaps, and new rod bolts? Or do you think new forged rods and maybe pistons will be needed too? Also as far the stage 3 flash is concerned, do you think limiting the boost and torque to 330 - 340 lbft is sensible given the auto tans and engine capabilities, and instead changing the turbo internals to provide more flow later in the rev range to achieve higher horsepower. Do you think 340lbft/340whp is an achievable goal? |
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06-04-2015, 04:08 PM | #101 |
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One of the best discussions I think I've read here yet. Thanks to Nick/GSR and Charlie @ McKenna for their feedback on this topic.
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06-04-2015, 04:09 PM | #102 | |
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GSR Autosport Charlie@McKennaBMWService Thanks for all the input guys
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06-04-2015, 04:55 PM | #103 |
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Always a pleasure to be of service! Whatever inside information I can provide I will never hesitate in doing so!
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06-04-2015, 05:57 PM | #104 |
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06-05-2015, 02:03 PM | #105 | |||
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I wish I lived in SoCal, GSR Autosport Charlie@McKennaBMWService I am really happy there's people like you folks because WE need it, please don't change.
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06-05-2015, 02:50 PM | #106 |
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SoCal is the best Cal, hahaha I kid... Thanks for the kind words.
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06-05-2015, 04:49 PM | #108 |
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06-05-2015, 06:31 PM | #110 |
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Some of the valve train parts started arriving today. We'll be replacing all the valves and valves springs.
*as of now we still haven't taken off the head* |
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