[jackmcclane]

I just wanna know it too, I'm tired of discussing about that when the decision is already made - I haven't got an answer to it from Scott which is okay when the risk for him is to high for giving us an obviously hint.

The S55 would be the perfect choice, they have the engine, just need it to detune it a bit so not much developing costs in contrast to tuning the N55 or a I4.
Why people are believing there could be a high revving I4 when we won't get a high revving I6 anymore? It would be a heavily turbocharged I4 engine without all the benefits of a I6, just a few kilos lighter ...wow these kilos really matter when you look at a 1400-1500kg car.

The only reason pro I4 would be the stupid class differentiation between the M2 and M3/4 ...which could be made much better with less power, with less high tech options available (like they do it already) and of course with less prestige.


...the M235i is just the plan B for me or some other car when they fuck up the M2GC, not only the engine counts, the chassis with wider track, the M-LSD, the weight savings with CFRP, the design etc. as well which you can't get for the M235i from the factory.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by jackmcclane

I just wanna know it too, I'm tired of discussing about that when the decision is already made - I haven't got an answer to the from Scott which is okay when the risk for him is to high for giving us a obviously hint.

The S55 would be the perfect choice, they have the engine, just need it to detune it a bit so not much developing costs in contrast to tuning the N55 or a I4.
Why people are believing there could be a high revving I4 when we won't get a high revving I6 anymore? It would be a heavily turbocharged I4 engine without all the benefits of a I6, just a few kilos lighter ...wow these kilos really matter when you look at a 1400-1500kg car.

The only reason pro I4 would be the stupid class differentiation between the M2 and M3/4 ...which could be made much better with less power, like already made with less high tech options available and of course with less prestige.


...the M235i is just the plan B for me or some other car when they fuck up the M2GC, not only the engine counts, the chassis with wider track, the M-LSD, the weight savings with CFRP, the design etc. as well which you can't get for the M235i from the factory.

Probably cause it would be pretty easy also to re-tune it to M4 levels and kick M4's butt

If you look at the past M5 M3 1M was V10 V8 I6....
next gen is V8 I6 ??? (most likely I4)

[jackmcclane]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Probably cause it would be pretty easy also to re-tune it to M4 levels and kick M4's butt

If you look at the past M5 M3 1M was V10 V8 I6....
next gen is V8 I6 ??? (most likely I4)

But since when BMW does care about tuners?? You can get a faster 1 series hatch than the M5/6 at the moment for sure, but who cares about a car like this?
When you just look at the numbers in combination with downsizing than the comingup M cars will be V8 I6 I4... which would be only the case when BMW cares this much about class differentiation, the other points are all pro S55.

But why the hell some people want a I4? Like I said you can't expect a high revving I4 and a few kilos really doesn't matter for such a car.

You all can buy what you want, I'm not gonna buy a M2 with a I4 engine, it's not 2020 or later. We won't see a natural aspirated one anymore and I accept the points why. I can live with a turbocharged I6 and the S55 will be a really good engine in all aspects.. (..no, no M3/4 for me but people who want that I4 so bad could get a CLA AMG or one of the other thousands of turbocharged I4 engines on the market...)

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by jackmcclane

But since when BMW does care about tuners?? You can get a faster 1 series hatch than the M5/6 at the moment for sure, but who cares about a car like this?
When you just look at the numbers in combination with downsizing than the comingup M cars will be V8 I6 I4... which would be only the case when BMW cares this much about class differentiation, the other points are all pro S55.

But why the hell some people want a I4? Like I said you can't expect a high revving I4 and a few kilos really doesn't matter for such a car.

You all can buy what you want, I'm not gonna buy a M2 with a I4 engine, it's not 2020 or later. We won't see a natural aspirated one anymore and I accept the points why. I can live with a turbocharged I6 and the S55 will be a really good engine in all aspects.. (..no, no M3/4 for me but people who want that I4 so bad could get a CLA AMG or one of the other thousands of turbocharged I4 engines on the market...)

I'm just saying that it would be too much easier to get M4 numbers from an I6 than from an I4... (maybe they will bite the bullet with an I5 lol )

I totally agree with you... I rather see a I6 on the M2.... just not sure it will happen

Just really hope it's not an I3

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

I'm just saying that it would be too much easier to get M4 numbers from an I6 than from an I4... (maybe they will bite the bullet with an I5 lol )

I totally agree with you... I rather see a I6 on the M2.... just not sure it will happen

Just really hope it's not an I3

You can get M3/M4 numbers now though with an N55 motor yet BMW is still putting that in their cars. I just don't see BMW using that as excuse why they wouldn't put an I6 in the car. Maybe for another reason, sure. But not because an outside tune can get the same power. We've been there for years in that regard.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by jackmcclane

But since when BMW does care about tuners?? You can get a faster 1 series hatch than the M5/6 at the moment for sure, but who cares about a car like this?
When you just look at the numbers in combination with downsizing than the comingup M cars will be V8 I6 I4... which would be only the case when BMW cares this much about class differentiation, the other points are all pro S55.

But why the hell some people want a I4? Like I said you can't expect a high revving I4 and a few kilos really doesn't matter for such a car.

You all can buy what you want, I'm not gonna buy a M2 with a I4 engine, it's not 2020 or later. We won't see a natural aspirated one anymore and I accept the points why. I can live with a turbocharged I6 and the S55 will be a really good engine in all aspects.. (..no, no M3/4 for me but people who want that I4 so bad could get a CLA AMG or one of the other thousands of turbocharged I4 engines on the market...)

Why I don't want I6? Because, it won't be the S55, and I don't want a "cheap" N55 tune by M. 325i E30 had I6, M3 E30 had I4 and was better.

[jackmcclane]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

I'm just saying that it would be too much easier to get M4 numbers from an I6 than from an I4... (maybe they will bite the bullet with an I5 lol )

I totally agree with you... I rather see a I6 on the M2.... just not sure it will happen

Just really hope it's not an I3

Yeah that's right, but I think they don't care about this, the M2 just should not step on the M4's toe's when it comes out of the factory.

I don't like the last postings from Scott in which he's talking about an I4 but I think he doesn't know it at the moment too.

Nitschke said they have already the engine (that would be more likely the N55 or S55 when they doesn't made a I4 in the background without someone noticing it.), Scott meant to that the M2 won't come tomorrow too, like a I4 would also take some time to develop, but could they do this in this small time frame?? At least de-/tuning the S55/N55 would be much cheaper.

Please guys, we need more info for shortening the waiting time a bit.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Jockey

You can get M3/M4 numbers now though with an N55 motor yet BMW is still putting that in their cars. I just don't see BMW using that as excuse why they wouldn't put an I6 in the car. Maybe for another reason, sure. But not because an outside tune can get the same power. We've been there for years in that regard.

Not with just a tune....

[jackmcclane]

Originally Posted by Levi

Why I don't want I6? Because, it won't be the S55, and I don't want a "cheap" N55 tune by M. 325i E30 had I6, M3 E30 had I4 and was better.

That's okay, but I'd always take a N55 with cheap tuning by M over a cheap tuned I4 by M. A 8k redline just isn't realistic. (even if it were realistic, I'd take the "cheap" I6.........)

(example is not specially meant for you, since you wouldn't want a N55):
...another point for BMW is: a potential buyer who prefers a I4 and only would get a I6 (N55 or S55), is more likely to buy this car like a potential buyer who prefers a I6 and only would get a I4 which you can get in most of the cars on the market and isn't very special.

And since always one here is talking about the E30 M3 with the I4 ... haven't you noticed that it's the fuckin only I4 in the BMW M lineup so far?? That must be pure coincidence...

[jackmcclane]

Really great to see BMW is popping out cars like popcorn at the moment but a 2 series Gran Coupe and M2/M2GC is years away. The 1 series coupe was very successful and now the competitors already have their small ...sedans (maybe some coupe's will follow?) on the market, from Mercedes the AMG version is already out and Audi won't take much longer for their RS model.

Yeah they will hit the market really hard but very very late which I can't understand, smaller cars are more and more important, the profit margin can't be so much lower compared to the 3 series since it shares the technology and the cars have premium prices.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Not with just a tune....

Have you heard of the JB4 by any chance? So it's just below in terms of HP but way over in terms of torque.

Of course, those are just numbers and by no means the car is comparable to an M car. Just saying though you can get the same power numbers with nothing more than a piggyback or reflash.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Have you heard of the JB4 by any chance? So it's just below in terms of HP but way over in terms of torque.

Of course, those are just numbers and by no means the car is comparable to an M car. Just saying though you can get the same power numbers with nothing more than a piggyback or reflash.

Yes I have... http://www.burgertuning.com/N55_Stage2_Jb4.html
and 60hp+ the stock 300hp is nowhere near the 420hp and new M4 makes...

but it would be much easier for people to just re-tune a detuned M4 engine than getting an an I4 make 420hp

Also a 335 doesn't have same type of M suspension, brakes etc... but between and M2 and M4 the only difference would be mostly on the engine... as both will have similar suspension, brakes, trans.... so you really need to make them different enough to make it worth while to get an M4 over an M2... so if you even put a I6 in both of them... Marketing will have a hell of a job to do to sell M4's

[BimmerMat135]

Anyway if you install most of these tune bmw will void your warranty so they shouldn`t be afraid of people tuning there M2 to M4 specs if they both go on sale with the same engine. Can't beleive they want to go with a 4cyl to save what 70lbs??? Just install a CF roof,hood and trunk and we will get back those 70lbs and we will have the possibility to drive a car with an engine that worth listen to.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Yes I have... http://www.burgertuning.com/N55_Stage2_Jb4.html
and 60hp+ the stock 300hp is nowhere near the 420hp and new M4 makes...

Well, I'm talking about the Stage 3 on an N54 which gives you close to 100+ hp at the crank. http://www.burgertuning.com/jb4_pnp_...nce_tuner.html

And if you read my previous post, I admitted that the HP gains falls a bit short but you get much more torque.

So yeah, my argument still stands about the power.

Originally Posted by pikcachu

but it would be much easier for people to just re-tune a detuned M4 engine than getting an an I4 make 420hp

Also a 335 doesn't have same type of M suspension, brakes etc...

I also addressed this. When has BMW cared about what tuners can do to their cars? BMW doesn't decide on the lineup of their cars because what can be done once a owner gets their hands on the car and decides to start modifying.

Besides, you are making my point about what I've been saying about the M2 all along. The gap between an M2 and the M3/4 would be fairly small to get the M2 over the 2-series that exists now. By having to put a smaller engine in the car to make it "different" enough just goes to show that maybe the BMW lineup is getting a tad saturated. To me, that feels like BMW is trying to force the issue.

With that said, I still think BMW and M can make an M2 different enough from the M3/4 to keep an I6 in it. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Yes I have... http://www.burgertuning.com/N55_Stage2_Jb4.html
and 60hp+ the stock 300hp is nowhere near the 420hp and new M4 makes...

but it would be much easier for people to just re-tune a detuned M4 engine than getting an an I4 make 420hp

Also a 335 doesn't have same type of M suspension, brakes etc... but between and M2 and M4 the only difference would be mostly on the engine... as both will have similar suspension, brakes, trans.... so you really need to make them different enough to make it worth while to get an M4 over an M2... so if you even put a I6 in both of them... Marketing will have a hell of a job to do to sell M4's

The number of people who chip tune their cars is a minuscule percentage in the larger market. Even when you look at a low-volume (relative to something like a vanilla 3-series) vehicle like the M3/M4, the numbers are tiny. I don't think after-market tuning potential will be the primary impetus for engine selection at the BMW round-table. They stand to lose far more sales from customers who are dissatisfied with the package than they do people who buy an M2 because they can tune it to beat an M4 in performance. Don't forget that lots of people buy the M4 for the status alone, so buying an M2 wouldn't even be considered.

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

Anyway if you install most of these tune bmw will void your warranty so they shouldn`t be afraid of people tuning there M2 to M4 specs if they both go on sale with the same engine. Can't beleive they want to go with a 4cyl to save what 70lbs??? Just install a CF roof,hood and trunk and we will get back those 70lbs and we will have the possibility to drive a car with an engine that worth listen to.

I agree with you on the tuning comments. Most consumers are too risk averse to chip their brand new BMW.

However, after having owned an X3 28i with the N20 in it for over a year now, I'm beginning to question my own views on the I6 requirement. The N20 in our X3 has been an absolutely fantastic engine. It's plenty powerful and responsive for a grocery getter. In a smaller car, and with a decent tune, it'd be a potent engine for sure.

The only area it lacks is in sound. It sounds like a damn diesel at idle, and I don't care what kind of exhaust you put on an I4, they don't sound as good as an I6. No matter what.

The 70 lbs weight savings is a big factor though. It's a big factor because of where the weight lies. Even with BMW engine positioning in the chassis, the N20 has some major advantages over the N55. You should see the engine bay in our X3. The engine is literally 90% behind the front strut towers. The ability to get the engine so far behind the front axle makes remarkable changes to the way the car handles.

I drove an X3 35i around a track, and I can tell you that the difference in gross weight and weight distribution has a perceptible impact on the way the car handles. The most apparent metric is turn-in, and turn-in is a major influencer on the way a car feels. When you snap the wheel and the car changes direction and settles in almost immediately, you really get the sense that you're driving a machine designed for a driver.

The X3 is about the worst case in the BMW line up for performance driving, but I think it makes a great platform for feeling the differences in chassis configurations. I feel like the platform accentuates the differences in a way that are really perceptible.

Anyway, I've reevaluated my views a bit. I'm no longer focused on a single dimension. I want BMW to make the choice that results in the best balance and performance. I want a car that handles as well as it performs on paper. If that means a juiced up version of the N20, then go for it. I'll buy it.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I also addressed this. When has BMW cared about what tuners can do to their cars? BMW doesn't decide on the lineup of their cars because what can be done once a owner gets their hands on the car and decides to start modifying.

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

The only area it lacks is in sound. It sounds like a damn diesel at idle, and I don't care what kind of exhaust you put on an I4, they don't sound as good as an I6. No matter what.

The 70 lbs weight savings is a big factor though. It's a big factor because of where the weight lies. Even with BMW engine positioning in the chassis, the N20 has some major advantages over the N55. You should see the engine bay in our X3. The engine is literally 90% behind the front strut towers. The ability to get the engine so far behind the front axle makes remarkable changes to the way the car handles.

I drove an X3 35i around a track, and I can tell you that the difference in gross weight and weight distribution has a perceptible impact on the way the car handles. The most apparent metric is turn-in, and turn-in is a major influencer on the way a car feels. When you snap the wheel and the car changes direction and settles in almost immediately, you really get the sense that you're driving a machine designed for a driver.

The X3 is about the worst case in the BMW line up for performance driving, but I think it makes a great platform for feeling the differences in chassis configurations. I feel like the platform accentuates the differences in a way that are really perceptible.

Anyway, I've reevaluated my views a bit. I'm no longer focused on a single dimension. I want BMW to make the choice that results in the best balance and performance. I want a car that handles as well as it performs on paper. If that means a juiced up version of the N20, then go for it. I'll buy it.

I agree with you on the weight factor but the I4 only has this advantage over the I6 all the rest are disavantages. If BMW need to focus so much on the weight that they are able to justify the presence of a I4 over an I6, then I would only accept it if the car come standart with a full CF body, CF shaft, ceramic brakes, light weight seat, light weight battery, fix light (non the bi-xenon one), option to remove carpet, A/C, infotainement screen and the radio. If they want to play the lightweight game, play it fair! If they put a 4cyl and don`t give us the possibility(at least with option) to have the car with the lowest weight as possible then it would have been pure marketing bullshit. I can accept 4cyl in cars like the alfa romeo 4C or lotus exige those car were meant to be lightweight from the start. On the other hand I'm not sure that the M2 will be meant to be light weight as the F22 M235i weight exactly the same as the E82 135i. The bases for the M2 are already heavy.

[BMW269]

I don't see how BMW M can tune the N55, when the S55 is already that engine tuned by BMW. Also, why isn't an 8.000 RPM I4 possible? The big S63Tu has redline at 7.200 RPM, the S55 has redline at 7.500 if not slightly higher. More than that, the N55, and probably N20 are to be replaced by the new modular block that will start with the 2 Series Active Tourer and its 1.5l I3, already powering the i8. As the S55 is a new engine, its does not depend on the life-cyle of N55. By the time the M2 enters the market, there will be no more N55, it will be replaced by N58. M235i should just get that engine. So there is already no possibility for the M2 to get a tuned N55, and I doubt both the normal N58 and the tuned N58 will hit the market at the same time. Only way is a detuned S55, but that is as unlikely as the M4 would get a detuned S63. BMW have cancelled the X1 M35i and so the Z4 M35i, that was to replace the Z4 sDrive35is badge. The next generation 1 Series/2 Series will be FWD, so no I6 will be possible, top range engines are going to be I4. A new X1 Mxx is coming with a transverse mounted I4 making around 300 PS, lighter than N55. M2 could get that engine. I'm just going to present to two possibilities that are to happen:

1. M2 gets I4 engine based on S55, that means two cylinders less than M3/M4, then engine block is not the same as N20 or N55, it is thus not a tuned N55 or N20. M235i retains its N55 engine or gets the new N58.

2. M235i loses its N55 engine, and gets the new ~300 PS new generation I4 engine found in the FWD-based X1 Mxx, not unlikey, just as the N20 I4 replaced the N53 I6. And here comes the M2 with the new N58 I6 engine. N58 is to be bi-turbo again, and reach power outputs between 360 to 400 PS.

I'm for the first possibility.

PS: Forget the 2GC based on F22, although it was designed, it is not coming.

[Captain_Burgundy]

I thought the M3/M4 engine was basically an N55 but it is definitely not - The S55 is not at all the same as the N55 - It is supposed to rev much quicker like a typical NA M Engine.

Besides being 3 liters they have little to nothing in
common.

Read M3 post here - http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=893611

[jackmcclane]

Originally Posted by Levi

I don't see how BMW M can tune the N55, when the S55 is already that engine tuned by BMW. Also, why isn't an 8.000 RPM I4 possible? The big S63Tu has redline at 7.200 RPM, the S55 has redline at 7.500 if not slightly higher. More than that, the N55, and probably N20 are to be replaced by the new modular block that will start with the 2 Series Active Tourer and its 1.5l I3, already powering the i8. As the S55 is a new engine, its does not depend on the life-cyle of N55. By the time the M2 enters the market, there will be no more N55, it will be replaced by N58. M235i should just get that engine. So there is already no possibility for the M2 to get a tuned N55, and I doubt both the normal N58 and the tuned N58 will hit the market at the same time. Only way is a detuned S55, but that is as unlikely as the M4 would get a detuned S63. BMW have cancelled the X1 M35i and so the Z4 M35i, that was to replace the Z4 sDrive35is badge. The next generation 1 Series/2 Series will be FWD, so no I6 will be possible, top range engines are going to be I4. A new X1 Mxx is coming with a transverse mounted I4 making around 300 PS, lighter than N55. M2 could get that engine. I'm just going to present to two possibilities that are to happen:

1. M2 gets I4 engine based on S55, that means two cylinders less than M3/M4, then engine block is not the same as N20 or N55, it is thus not a tuned N55 or N20. M235i retains its N55 engine or gets the new N58.

2. M235i loses its N55 engine, and gets the new ~300 PS new generation I4 engine found in the FWD-based X1 Mxx, not unlikey, just as the N20 I4 replaced the N53 I6. And here comes the M2 with the new N58 I6 engine. N58 is to be bi-turbo again, and reach power outputs between 360 to 400 PS.

I'm for the first possibility.

PS: Forget the 2GC based on F22, although it was designed, it is not coming.

Do you have some reliable source for this?

That the N55 would get a successor very soon is no surprise, I'm pretty sure the M235i will get the N58. But I forgot about it in my recent thoughts and I haven't heard about a name for it until now. ...so a tuned N58 (like a tuned N54 in the 1M) is very likely in my eyes for the M2, but a detuned S55 would be definitely the better choice.

I've listed a lot of points why the S55 would make sence in my recent posts. Another one would be saving money by using the S55 in more cars instead of developing another one.

We are talking about the current generation of the 2 series. Next generation with FWD and no I6 is sadly quite likely.

To 1.: I'm no expert at this place, but I would say the engine is more likely to be based on the N20 as on the S55. ...but I don't know what you can make out of the N20.
I think a I4 from BMW M would debut in the generation after the F2X, or at least in a possible X1/2 M years away. (Not in a X3/4 because they have RWD and AWD based on that)

To 2.: No, a transverse placed engine from a FWD can't be placed in a RWD car elongated so far I know.
...Bi-Turbo again? I wanna see some source for that. It's possible but I haven't heard anything like that before, 360-400 PS? ...perfect for the M2, if that's true, and for sure the N55 successor will feature more power, we got our M2 engine! Sadly no S55 but a hundred times better than a I4.

And I say there will be a 2 series Gran Coupé, BMW would be just extremly stupid for making all the other niche models and doesn't bring a small RWD based sedan which a large market is screaming for. Imho BMW have no choice, the 2 series will be sold very good, the CLA and A3 sedan too so they have to bring it, and than the M2 Gran Coupé.


PS: I don't know how BMW is doing their market research, but according to this poll, only 2,83% / 13 people out of 460 (remember the M2/GC will be a niche model) wouldn't buy a M2/GC with a I6, but 97,17% or 447 people out of 460 wouldn't buy it with a I4.
And their market research can't come to a completely different result, so only a dumb one at BMW could give green light for a I4 for the M2/GC instead a I6 based on extreme class differentiation since they wanna sell cars.)

So we will see a tuned N58 I6 (N55 successor) or detuned S55 I6 in the M2/GC, mark my words.

[jackmcclane]

They M2 will be the new M3 and there's only one generation left before you can forget it forever when it becomes FWD. So make that last one right and put a damn S55 with 360 PS in it. A 4cyl. just would be a punch in the face of all the true BMW fans out there who are willing to buy one of these, a N58 would be acceptable but with lack of manners you would expect from a last true M. (M2 and M2GC)

[BimmerMat135]

Originally Posted by jackmcclane

They M2 will be the new M3 and there's only one generation left before you can forget it forever when it becomes FWD. So make that last one right and put a damn S55 with 360 PS in it. A 4cyl. just would be a punch in the face of all the true BMW fans out there who are willing to buy one of these, a N58 would be acceptable but with lack of manners you would expect from a last true M. (M2 and M2GC)

X2 and probably the last BMW for me. So please BMW make it with a 6cyl.