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      06-19-2016, 08:04 PM   #1
dalrx
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Save the Manuals!

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I drive a manual 228i and if I get an allocation my next M2 will be a manual, but I understand the automatic route. Supercars just don't have them and this article succinctly says why.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-a-stick-shift
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      06-19-2016, 09:57 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalrx View Post
I drive a manual 228i and if I get an allocation my next M2 will be a manual, but I understand the automatic route. Supercars just don't have them and this article succinctly says why.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-a-stick-shift
Most of my cars have been manuals and I decided to go with the auto on my 2281x. If that is your preference then enjoy it. At age 72 I'm in the comfort zone.
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      06-20-2016, 01:41 AM   #3
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Sad but true, automatics/DCTs are more logical in today's world. Which is exactly why I choose to drive stick.

Just kidding, but IMO there's no way to quantify the lost engagement without a MT, no matter what the statistical performance benefits.
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      06-20-2016, 02:13 AM   #4
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Auto just isn't as engaging for me. That said, I'm visiting my brother in San Jose and there's no way I'd drive a stick as my DD in this traffic. I'd probably own a motorcycle so I can lane split.......bike would be manual lol.
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      06-20-2016, 02:30 AM   #5
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Which modern race cars have manuals now?

If manuals could be improved better than autos they may come back but I don't see this happening.

I would like a manual but BMW New Zealand won't import manuals not even a special order.

These crazy autonomous cars will finish manuals off for good.
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      06-20-2016, 09:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
Auto just isn't as engaging for me. That said, I'm visiting my brother in San Jose and there's no way I'd drive a stick as my DD in this traffic. I'd probably own a motorcycle so I can lane split.......bike would be manual lol.
I think you mean pedual.
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      06-20-2016, 09:48 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi
Which modern race cars have manuals now?

If manuals could be improved better than autos they may come back but I don't see this happening.

I would like a manual but BMW New Zealand won't import manuals not even a special order.

These crazy autonomous cars will finish manuals off for good.
Very true. Very reason the Auto is quicker on up/down shifts.

Furthermore, a Manual does not "Hold Boost" through it's shifts, like a AUTO does !
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      06-20-2016, 09:50 AM   #8
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Drove manuals for a long time, since ISF was my first choice I decided to try to settle for auto....but ended up finding m235i with color and opinions I wanted and it was a manual. So far happy and glad that M2 uses same tranny, just brings 235i that much closer to actual M
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      06-20-2016, 10:07 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
Which modern race cars have manuals now?
None sadly, and it really sucks.
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      06-20-2016, 10:53 AM   #10
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      06-20-2016, 11:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleedy
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentZero View Post
Auto just isn't as engaging for me. That said, I'm visiting my brother in San Jose and there's no way I'd drive a stick as my DD in this traffic. I'd probably own a motorcycle so I can lane split.......bike would be manual lol.
I think you mean pedual.
I call motorcycles bikes lol.
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      06-20-2016, 11:21 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by dalrx View Post
Porsche 911 R !!!!!
+1 and the Cayman GT4 too!
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      06-20-2016, 11:28 AM   #13
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I went auto this time in my 235 due to left knee problems and I like it more than I thought it would.
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      06-20-2016, 01:48 PM   #14
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I won't deny that the ZF, DCT, semi-sequential manuals are faster and are definitely ideal for competitive racing, but IMO, for a street driven car there is not much anything more enjoyable from a driving perspective than rowing you're own gears.

Many automarkers love the automatics because it greatly reduces the chances of operator error that can damage the tranny. They absolutely love having that control or reliability. The automatics are far more expensive to repair and replace and they love that factor has well. For examples, a remanufactured ZF 8AT in the 226/M235 is around $7500-8500 without install. The 6MT in the M235/M2/M3/M4 is ~4,500-5,500 for a remanufactured tranny, new bell housings, new flywheel, and new clutch (not installed). The automakers also love the automatics because it helps with bragging rights in terms of acceleration, Ring lap times, etc. The more they convince the buying public that automatics are the way, the better, in their opinion.

What I really like about the manual is being able to adjust shift firmness, shift speed, skip shift (I routinely do a 1-3-5 shift), etc. It's the "man pedal" and I would have never considered the M235 with the auto. The ZF 8AT is lightening quick on the shifts and looses no boost on the shifts, BUT I've been there and did that for 6 years with a prior car. The novelty of snapping away on paddle shifters around town lost my interest after a year. Faster? Yes. More enjoyable? Only if you're racing for money or lap times. You may disagree and I totally understand.
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      06-20-2016, 02:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
These crazy autonomous cars will finish manuals off for good.
Nevermind manuals. Autonomous cars will finish out human driving for good once the nanny staters succeed in convincing the masses to give it up in exchange for a few less deaths per year.
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      06-20-2016, 02:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
I won't deny that the ZF, DCT, semi-sequential manuals are faster and are definitely ideal for competitive racing, but IMO, for a street driven car there is not much anything more enjoyable from a driving perspective than rowing you're own gears.

Many automarkers love the automatics because it greatly reduces the chances of operator error that can damage the tranny. They absolutely love having that control or reliability. The automatics are far more expensive to repair and replace and they love that factor has well. For examples, a remanufactured ZF 8AT in the 226/M235 is around $7500-8500 without install. The 6MT in the M235/M2/M3/M4 is ~4,500-5,500 for a remanufactured tranny, new bell housings, new flywheel, and new clutch (not installed). The automakers also love the automatics because it helps with bragging rights in terms of acceleration, Ring lap times, etc. The more they convince the buying public that automatics are the way, the better, in their opinion.

What I really like about the manual is being able to adjust shift firmness, shift speed, skip shift (I routinely do a 1-3-5 shift), etc. It's the "man pedal" and I would have never considered the M235 with the auto. The ZF 8AT is lightening quick on the shifts and looses no boost on the shifts, BUT I've been there and did that for 6 years with a prior car. The novelty of snapping away on paddle shifters around town lost my interest after a year. Faster? Yes. More enjoyable? Only if you're racing for money or lap times. You may disagree and I totally understand.
I am not a pro, I read Honda engineers and techs said skipping shifts damages syncro
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      06-20-2016, 02:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
I am not a pro, I read Honda engineers and techs said skipping shifts damages syncro
Did they specify on downshift or upshift? I would understand on downshifting.
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      06-20-2016, 02:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Did they specify on downshift or upshift? I would understand on downshifting.
http://www.s2ki.com/home/2014/09/22/...ifting-is-bad/

upshift
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      06-20-2016, 02:43 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
I could understand if you're trying to skip shift on high rpm shifts, but not at part throttle, low rpms. I've been doing this since I started driving over 25 years ago. I've NEVER had an issue with syncros failing and these are cars that have lived some pretty hard lives. You can feel a resistance in the syncro when trying to do something it doesn't like. If you can't feel that while driving, then you probably should be driving a manual.
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      06-20-2016, 02:58 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
That article is interesting but describes an extreme use case. If I'm skipping on upshifts, it's to get to a higher gear sooner for a more efficient drive....I'm not redlining, or even close to it. And, it's more likely a 4-6 for cruising, with relatively smaller differences. I agree with a more recent post that you can "feel" if you're asking the synchos to do something they don't "want" to do. A gentle upshift with a skip at moderate engine speeds encounters no resistance. Also been doing this for decades with no problems.
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      06-20-2016, 03:06 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
I could understand if you're trying to skip shift on high rpm shifts, but not at part throttle, low rpms. I've been doing this since I started driving over 25 years ago. I've NEVER had an issue with syncros failing and these are cars that have lived some pretty hard lives. You can feel a resistance in the syncro when trying to do something it doesn't like. If you can't feel that while driving, then you probably should be driving a manual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
That article is interesting but describes an extreme use case. If I'm skipping on upshifts, it's to get to a higher gear sooner for a more efficient drive....I'm not redlining, or even close to it. And, it's more likely a 4-6 for cruising, with relatively smaller differences. I agree with a more recent post that you can "feel" if you're asking the synchos to do something they don't "want" to do. A gentle upshift with a skip at moderate engine speeds encounters no resistance. Also been doing this for decades with no problems.
Could be tranny dependent and they did say over long time with much greater wear if done at high RPM. Also published in Service News bulletin by Honda

I do it on occasion but dont have this habit anyway

I guess typical scenario is accelerate through 1-2 maybe 3rd gear and then quickly jump to 6th as you realize you going too fast....I assume thats not good for synchro

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 06-20-2016 at 03:17 PM.
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      06-20-2016, 03:40 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet
I won't deny that the ZF, DCT, semi-sequential manuals are faster and are definitely ideal for competitive racing, but IMO, for a street driven car there is not much anything more enjoyable from a driving perspective than rowing you're own gears.

Many automarkers love the automatics because it greatly reduces the chances of operator error that can damage the tranny. They absolutely love having that control or reliability. The automatics are far more expensive to repair and replace and they love that factor has well. For examples, a remanufactured ZF 8AT in the 226/M235 is around $7500-8500 without install. The 6MT in the M235/M2/M3/M4 is ~4,500-5,500 for a remanufactured tranny, new bell housings, new flywheel, and new clutch (not installed). The automakers also love the automatics because it helps with bragging rights in terms of acceleration, Ring lap times, etc. The more they convince the buying public that automatics are the way, the better, in their opinion.

What I really like about the manual is being able to adjust shift firmness, shift speed, skip shift (I routinely do a 1-3-5 shift), etc. It's the "man pedal" and I would have never considered the M235 with the auto. The ZF 8AT is lightening quick on the shifts and looses no boost on the shifts, BUT I've been there and did that for 6 years with a prior car. The novelty of snapping away on paddle shifters around town lost my interest after a year. Faster? Yes. More enjoyable? Only if you're racing for money or lap times. You may disagree and I totally understand.
I'm with you man. It also reduces development costs drastically. Engineering one transmission option is way cheaper for manufacturers.

At least you lasted almost a year! I was purely manuals for close to 15 years to one automatic and was bored of driving after about 4 months.

I don't know, to me it seems that automatics are just a tiny fraction faster but way more boring to drive.

Just my take but I'm sure some agree.
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