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      05-24-2014, 03:04 AM   #1
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A different performance comparison M235i M/T vs 8-speed

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Hey guys

It seems ever so evident that the auto gets faster acceleration from 0-60, but I came across this chart and wondered for a bit..



I wondered about the standing start 0-1000m, which doesn't seem to differentiate between manual and auto, as other parameters do, so, if the auto gains from 0-60, how and where does the manual make up for it's loss there to achieve the same 0-1000m time!?

Can the longer gear ratios actually take some advantage out of the high torque available on acceleration?? I mean, HP will get you the top speed, but acceleration as more to do with torque, and the auto, with its shorter ratios operates slightly further up the rev range and that's when torque eventually falls...

this is probably a pointless thread, as there's probably no real objective answer we can find, but we could speculate, which is fun and kinda one of the points of forums...

Also, could this assumption also mean the manual would have slightly better acceleration out of a corner, as the longer ratio and lower revs would take better advantage of the torque for a longer time before hitting the red, compared to the higher higher reving auto!?

Hope I could explain the point and start an interesting debate, just for funsies!
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      05-24-2014, 06:11 AM   #2
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Actually interesting - what we need are two graphs - one for an engine on a dyno for auto & manual showing power / torque and another comparing acceleration to maximum for auto & manual.

Wonder if any magazines produced the charts - particularly European mags.
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      05-24-2014, 06:41 AM   #3
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On the manual, the action of shoving the gear level from 2nd to 3rd helps push the car forward.












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      05-24-2014, 06:45 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canaletto View Post
On the manual, the action of shoving the gear level from 2nd to 3rd helps push the car forward.




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      05-24-2014, 07:36 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notime View Post
Actually interesting - what we need are two graphs - one for an engine on a dyno for auto & manual showing power / torque and another comparing acceleration to maximum for auto & manual.

Wonder if any magazines produced the charts - particularly European mags.
That would be quite interesting!!!

I tried to find dyno charts to compare the curves for the manual and auto, but there are little few charts out there, and either of them specify the gearbox...I just found 1 or 2 that said they were auto's!

But you can see on the charts for the auto that torque falls "harder" after 5.000rpm, which is whereabouts the revs drop to on upshifts under hard acceleration. The manual makes the revs fall under that if you upshift on the same revs as on the auto, so maybe that's a reason, or the reason why it can make up for the lost time to 60mph when going 0-1000m. It would definitely help knowing the speed at which both would cross the 1000m mark.

I'm not trying to prove the manual is better than the auto, just exercising the mind and trying to see where the manual scores better, cause neither box is perfect, both have their own pros and cons!
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      05-25-2014, 02:05 AM   #6
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I know this is NOT an objective comparison, as altitude, wind, etc are unknown for both situations, but I find it interesting that the, officially slower manual from 0-100, gets to its top speed faster that the auto on this video! There seems to be a near 2 second gap between the cars take off, but the manual gets to top speed roughly 3 seconds earlier, so one could speculate it gained 1 second to the auto!


Last edited by one1er; 05-25-2014 at 03:12 AM.
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      05-25-2014, 05:32 AM   #7
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Without watching the video the automatic top gear may be almost a fuel saving cruising gear - possible ?
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      05-25-2014, 07:55 AM   #8
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There is just no around the issue: the AT is a faster transmission than manual period. One wonders why all F1 cars now days have computerized shifting rather then manual ones.
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      05-25-2014, 02:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tllucas View Post
There is just no around the issue: the AT is a faster transmission than manual period. One wonders why all F1 cars now days have computerized shifting rather then manual ones.
Like I said on the 1st post...the auto is faster, but that's not the point...the point is the ratios differ, and the manual seems to benefit somehow judging from the 0-1000m time and video above...

and the auto hits top speed in 6th gear!
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      05-26-2014, 04:32 AM   #10
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There is an extraneous gear change in the MT to do the 0-60mph. It is very possible the MT would win a 0-55mph contest by sparing the gear change. Said otherwise, this seems to be a gimmick of the benchmark (0-60mph), rather than an indication of any significant performance difference.
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      05-26-2014, 04:51 AM   #11
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I get what you're saying, and it may be very true!

I'd like to see some times for both going from 40-60 or some other intervals to see how both would react/do!
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      05-26-2014, 05:17 AM   #12
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0.2 of a second here or there makes absolutely no difference in 'real world' driving… The most critical thing for a road car/engine is how it feels when delivering it's power.

The engine in a 235 has an extremely linear delivery which when spread over 8 low ratio gears makes the experience very dull. Extremely fast yes, exciting? sadly not.

The ratios of the 6sp manual makes for a much better delivery
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      05-26-2014, 05:55 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leon1984 View Post
0.2 of a second here or there makes absolutely no difference in 'real world' driving… The most critical thing for a road car/engine is how it feels when delivering it's power.

The engine in a 235 has an extremely linear delivery which when spread over 8 low ratio gears makes the experience very dull. Extremely fast yes, exciting? sadly not.

The ratios of the 6sp manual makes for a much better delivery
It's funny you say that, cause I feel the same way but no one seems to mention it! I mean, I just read about a new golf 400 whatever, with a 10-speed DSG and I was like: 10?!?!? Efficient yadayadayada, but it's just gonna sound awful, almost like a CVT, not to mention satisfaction, excitement and involvement!

You'll just floor it and hear a near constant rpm like on a prius...awful experience! And if you're in manual mode, you'll just blister the hell out of your finger tips from clicking the paddles to death going up and down the gears!
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      05-26-2014, 06:33 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one1er View Post
It's funny you say that, cause I feel the same way but no one seems to mention it! I mean, I just read about a new golf 400 whatever, with a 10-speed DSG and I was like: 10?!?!? Efficient yadayadayada, but it's just gonna sound awful, almost like a CVT, not to mention satisfaction, excitement and involvement!

You'll just floor it and hear a near constant rpm like on a prius...awful experience! And if you're in manual mode, you'll just blister the hell out of your finger tips from clicking the paddles to death going up and down the gears!
I have an 8sp ZF Z4 on loan at the moment whilst my 235 makes it's way over the pond from Germany and it is ridiculous. As an auto it is very good, but manual mode with 8 gears :roll eyes:

I test drove an auto 235 and was left a bit bemused… couldn't fathom how a car a fair bit quicker than my Cayman S felt slower and dull… drove a manual and bingo loved it…
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      05-26-2014, 06:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tllucas
There is just no around the issue: the AT is a faster transmission than manual period. One wonders why all F1 cars now days have computerized shifting rather then manual ones.
there is no such thing as an F1 car that uses a torque converted slushbox. lol. they all use electronically controlled manual gearboxes that still use clutches. The closest thing to this in production cars are sequential or dual clutch gearboxes. The ZF slushbox doesn't come close....
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