THE LARGEST BMW 2-SERIES FORUM ON THE PLANET
2Addicts
2Addicts
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum BMW 2 Series (F22) Forum BMW 2 Series Coupe and Cabriolet (F22/F23) General Forum A different performance comparison M235i M/T vs 8-speed

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-24-2014, 03:04 AM   #1
one1er
Private First Class
3

 
one1er's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i (Yet to come)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Portugal


Posts: 124
iTrader: (0)

A different performance comparison M235i M/T vs 8-speed

BIMMERPOST
     Featured on BIMMERPOST.com
Hey guys

It seems ever so evident that the auto gets faster acceleration from 0-60, but I came across this chart and wondered for a bit..



I wondered about the standing start 0-1000m, which doesn't seem to differentiate between manual and auto, as other parameters do, so, if the auto gains from 0-60, how and where does the manual make up for it's loss there to achieve the same 0-1000m time!?

Can the longer gear ratios actually take some advantage out of the high torque available on acceleration?? I mean, HP will get you the top speed, but acceleration as more to do with torque, and the auto, with its shorter ratios operates slightly further up the rev range and that's when torque eventually falls...

this is probably a pointless thread, as there's probably no real objective answer we can find, but we could speculate, which is fun and kinda one of the points of forums...

Also, could this assumption also mean the manual would have slightly better acceleration out of a corner, as the longer ratio and lower revs would take better advantage of the torque for a longer time before hitting the red, compared to the higher higher reving auto!?

Hope I could explain the point and start an interesting debate, just for funsies!
Appreciate 0
      05-24-2014, 06:11 AM   #2
ScottSinger
Lieutenant
5

 
Drives: M235i 6spd
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Mid-Atlantic


Posts: 421
iTrader: (0)

Actually interesting - what we need are two graphs - one for an engine on a dyno for auto & manual showing power / torque and another comparing acceleration to maximum for auto & manual.

Wonder if any magazines produced the charts - particularly European mags.
Appreciate 0
      05-24-2014, 06:41 AM   #3
Canaletto
Private First Class
4

 
Drives: 4 Wheels
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Somewhere


Posts: 113
iTrader: (0)

On the manual, the action of shoving the gear level from 2nd to 3rd helps push the car forward.












Appreciate 0
      05-24-2014, 06:45 AM   #4
ehagerty
Captain
United_States
8

 
Drives: MY14 F22 MG 8spd Prem Tech
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte


Posts: 620
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canaletto View Post
On the manual, the action of shoving the gear level from 2nd to 3rd helps push the car forward.




Appreciate 0
      05-24-2014, 07:36 AM   #5
one1er
Private First Class
3

 
one1er's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i (Yet to come)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Portugal


Posts: 124
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by notime View Post
Actually interesting - what we need are two graphs - one for an engine on a dyno for auto & manual showing power / torque and another comparing acceleration to maximum for auto & manual.

Wonder if any magazines produced the charts - particularly European mags.
That would be quite interesting!!!

I tried to find dyno charts to compare the curves for the manual and auto, but there are little few charts out there, and either of them specify the gearbox...I just found 1 or 2 that said they were auto's!

But you can see on the charts for the auto that torque falls "harder" after 5.000rpm, which is whereabouts the revs drop to on upshifts under hard acceleration. The manual makes the revs fall under that if you upshift on the same revs as on the auto, so maybe that's a reason, or the reason why it can make up for the lost time to 60mph when going 0-1000m. It would definitely help knowing the speed at which both would cross the 1000m mark.

I'm not trying to prove the manual is better than the auto, just exercising the mind and trying to see where the manual scores better, cause neither box is perfect, both have their own pros and cons!
Appreciate 0
      05-25-2014, 02:05 AM   #6
one1er
Private First Class
3

 
one1er's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i (Yet to come)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Portugal


Posts: 124
iTrader: (0)

I know this is NOT an objective comparison, as altitude, wind, etc are unknown for both situations, but I find it interesting that the, officially slower manual from 0-100, gets to its top speed faster that the auto on this video! There seems to be a near 2 second gap between the cars take off, but the manual gets to top speed roughly 3 seconds earlier, so one could speculate it gained 1 second to the auto!


Last edited by one1er; 05-25-2014 at 03:12 AM.
Appreciate 0
      05-25-2014, 05:32 AM   #7
ScottSinger
Lieutenant
5

 
Drives: M235i 6spd
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Mid-Atlantic


Posts: 421
iTrader: (0)

Without watching the video the automatic top gear may be almost a fuel saving cruising gear - possible ?
Appreciate 0
      05-25-2014, 07:55 AM   #8
Researcher
Private
2

 
Drives: MG M235i / C7 3LT Z51
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Mars.


Posts: 80
iTrader: (0)

There is just no around the issue: the AT is a faster transmission than manual period. One wonders why all F1 cars now days have computerized shifting rather then manual ones.
Appreciate 0
      05-25-2014, 02:09 PM   #9
one1er
Private First Class
3

 
one1er's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i (Yet to come)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Portugal


Posts: 124
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tllucas View Post
There is just no around the issue: the AT is a faster transmission than manual period. One wonders why all F1 cars now days have computerized shifting rather then manual ones.
Like I said on the 1st post...the auto is faster, but that's not the point...the point is the ratios differ, and the manual seems to benefit somehow judging from the 0-1000m time and video above...

and the auto hits top speed in 6th gear!
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2014, 04:32 AM   #10
Meeni
Gateropode
21

 
Meeni's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW 330i 06
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: TN


Posts: 1,837
iTrader: (0)

There is an extraneous gear change in the MT to do the 0-60mph. It is very possible the MT would win a 0-55mph contest by sparing the gear change. Said otherwise, this seems to be a gimmick of the benchmark (0-60mph), rather than an indication of any significant performance difference.
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2014, 04:51 AM   #11
one1er
Private First Class
3

 
one1er's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i (Yet to come)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Portugal


Posts: 124
iTrader: (0)

I get what you're saying, and it may be very true!

I'd like to see some times for both going from 40-60 or some other intervals to see how both would react/do!
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2014, 05:17 AM   #12
leon1984
Private
0

 
Drives: Z4 3.0sDrive
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Surrey


Posts: 59
iTrader: (0)

0.2 of a second here or there makes absolutely no difference in 'real world' driving… The most critical thing for a road car/engine is how it feels when delivering it's power.

The engine in a 235 has an extremely linear delivery which when spread over 8 low ratio gears makes the experience very dull. Extremely fast yes, exciting? sadly not.

The ratios of the 6sp manual makes for a much better delivery
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2014, 05:55 AM   #13
one1er
Private First Class
3

 
one1er's Avatar
 
Drives: M235i (Yet to come)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Portugal


Posts: 124
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by leon1984 View Post
0.2 of a second here or there makes absolutely no difference in 'real world' driving… The most critical thing for a road car/engine is how it feels when delivering it's power.

The engine in a 235 has an extremely linear delivery which when spread over 8 low ratio gears makes the experience very dull. Extremely fast yes, exciting? sadly not.

The ratios of the 6sp manual makes for a much better delivery
It's funny you say that, cause I feel the same way but no one seems to mention it! I mean, I just read about a new golf 400 whatever, with a 10-speed DSG and I was like: 10?!?!? Efficient yadayadayada, but it's just gonna sound awful, almost like a CVT, not to mention satisfaction, excitement and involvement!

You'll just floor it and hear a near constant rpm like on a prius...awful experience! And if you're in manual mode, you'll just blister the hell out of your finger tips from clicking the paddles to death going up and down the gears!
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2014, 06:33 AM   #14
leon1984
Private
0

 
Drives: Z4 3.0sDrive
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Surrey


Posts: 59
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by one1er View Post
It's funny you say that, cause I feel the same way but no one seems to mention it! I mean, I just read about a new golf 400 whatever, with a 10-speed DSG and I was like: 10?!?!? Efficient yadayadayada, but it's just gonna sound awful, almost like a CVT, not to mention satisfaction, excitement and involvement!

You'll just floor it and hear a near constant rpm like on a prius...awful experience! And if you're in manual mode, you'll just blister the hell out of your finger tips from clicking the paddles to death going up and down the gears!
I have an 8sp ZF Z4 on loan at the moment whilst my 235 makes it's way over the pond from Germany and it is ridiculous. As an auto it is very good, but manual mode with 8 gears :roll eyes:

I test drove an auto 235 and was left a bit bemused… couldn't fathom how a car a fair bit quicker than my Cayman S felt slower and dull… drove a manual and bingo loved it…
Appreciate 0
      05-26-2014, 06:39 AM   #15
IEDEI
A change of speed, a change of style
38

 
IEDEI's Avatar
 
Drives: L'Orange 1M
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC


Posts: 2,935
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tllucas
There is just no around the issue: the AT is a faster transmission than manual period. One wonders why all F1 cars now days have computerized shifting rather then manual ones.
there is no such thing as an F1 car that uses a torque converted slushbox. lol. they all use electronically controlled manual gearboxes that still use clutches. The closest thing to this in production cars are sequential or dual clutch gearboxes. The ZF slushbox doesn't come close....
__________________
BMW 1M (VO, #374/740)
Audi TT 225 quattro coupe

BMW 135is (sold)

Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:13 PM.




2addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST