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      06-10-2014, 02:52 PM   #1
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M2 vs Carrera S

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I really hope that they give the M2 the power and handling to compete with cars like the carrera S. Then they could even make "GT" versions of the M2 to compete with porsche GT3s and the like. Maybe I'm just dreaming but this is what I think BMW needs!
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      06-10-2014, 03:02 PM   #2
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I really hope that they give the M2 the power and handling to compete with cars like the carrera S. Then they could even make "GT" versions of the M2 to compete with porsche GT3s and the like. Maybe I'm just dreaming but this is what I think BMW needs!
A Carrera S starts at about $100k...thinking an M2 will compete with it is wishful thinking to say the least!
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      06-10-2014, 03:06 PM   #3
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Thats why I would love it if the M2 was more expensive than the M4. I know BMW marketing won't go for that though.
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      06-10-2014, 03:34 PM   #4
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op, are you drunk by chance?
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      06-10-2014, 03:37 PM   #5
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op, are you drunk by chance?
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      06-10-2014, 03:50 PM   #6
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Maybe
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      06-10-2014, 04:47 PM   #7
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Thats why I would love it if the M2 was more expensive than the M4. I know BMW marketing won't go for that though.
BMW M period wouldn't go for that. Ask yourself, why and how would the M2 using a modded N55, with about 375 hp, LSD, possible carbon bits and around 3,400 pounds (if that) be more expensive than the M3/M4? It doesn't make sense.
Nor does it make sense for it to be a Carrera S competitor when that job is pretty much the M3/M4's. And by the same logic you used, the M2 would be a M3/M4 competitor, so you would have a care competing not only with the Carrera S, but with it's bigger brother as well. BMW/M ain't going for that.
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      06-11-2014, 02:11 PM   #8
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BMW M period wouldn't go for that. Ask yourself, why and how would the M2 using a modded N55, with about 375 hp, LSD, possible carbon bits and around 3,400 pounds (if that) be more expensive than the M3/M4? It doesn't make sense.
Nor does it make sense for it to be a Carrera S competitor when that job is pretty much the M3/M4's. And by the same logic you used, the M2 would be a M3/M4 competitor, so you would have a care competing not only with the Carrera S, but with it's bigger brother as well. BMW/M ain't going for that.
With the size of the F8x platform, I don't see it as a 911 competitor. The 911 is more of a sportscar, the F8x is a GT.
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      06-11-2014, 02:54 PM   #9
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With the size of the F8x platform, I don't see it as a 911 competitor. The 911 is more of a sportscar, the F8x is a GT.
The M6 is the "GT" car. But, I can see what you are saying, even though the M4 is lighter than the e92 M3 coupe, it looks like a mini M6. It tends to be that people step up to the Carrera after the M3 (e92). And performance wise, the Carrera and M4 kinda match up...kinda but not actually. Because as you said the 911 is more of a sports car, and the M4 is more of a Sports version of the 4 series.
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      06-11-2014, 03:02 PM   #10
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With the size of the F8x platform, I don't see it as a 911 competitor. The 911 is more of a sportscar, the F8x is a GT.
The M6 is the "GT" car. But, I can see what you are saying, even though the M4 is lighter than the e92 M3 coupe, it looks like a mini M6. It tends to be that people step up to the Carrera after the M3 (e92). And performance wise, the Carrera and M4 kinda match up...kinda but not actually. Because as you said the 911 is more of a sports car, and the M4 is more of a Sports version of the 4 series.
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      06-11-2014, 08:03 PM   #11
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The M3 and 911 are similar on specs but they are really very different cars. Id like to see BMW make a car with the ultra racy feel of a p-car.
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      06-12-2014, 12:26 AM   #12
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It's going to be hard for BMW to hide 500lbs difference between 911 and M2. M2 will be all about perf numbers, 911 will be driving sensation similar to how M4/3 is
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      06-12-2014, 01:05 AM   #13
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It's going to be hard for BMW to hide 500lbs difference between 911 and M2. M2 will be all about perf numbers, 911 will be driving sensation similar to how M4/3 is
I don't understand: My 1M weighs same /less than 991S. How should a 991S weigh 500lbs less than the oncoming M2?

And the 'driving sensation' similar to M3/4. You're right, the 991 has grown bigger and heavier. Driving sensation is hard to define/describe but I bet the M2 for me will be much more 'sensational' than a M3/4 or 991S.

And people will ask: Why is a 'normal'991S just as fast as a 997GT3 on the Nordschleife. Because it was equipped with special semis which with the first raindrops you'll end up in trees/armco. That's why....

We're not talking GT3 stuff or Cayman GTS here, are we?

Many (German) tests of 1M vs Cayman S(even the new 2014 Cayman S)in the slalom/wedel/G force/braking distances give similar numbers. We all know the Cayman is the 'better'drivers car than a 911, so I don't think an M2 driver will be dissapointed, at all...

I think a 'normal' 911 is overrated since it was born. Having driving >10 in different specs(1972---1986, '89, '92 964RS, 996, 997S, been in a 997 GT3, 996GT3)




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      06-27-2014, 05:00 PM   #14
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I think a 'normal' 911 is overrated since it was born. Having driving >10 in different specs(1972---1986, '89, '92 964RS, 996, 997S, been in a 997 GT3, 996GT3)
Have you ever owned a 911? I ask because it's not a car you "get" quickly or easily. It is a peculiar brand of vodka, but once you get hooked...

As for the Cayman being a "better" driver's car, that depends what you mean. It transitions more quickly, but it doesn't like to hold a slip angle nearly as much. A friend owns one of the fastest Caymans in the country, 3.8L, 2610 lbs, radial slicks, etc. It's hugely effective, but even he admits the 911 is more fun at the limit... Of course I might be biased...
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I really hope that they give the M2 the power and handling to compete with cars like the carrera S. Then they could even make "GT" versions of the M2 to compete with porsche GT3s and the like.
I hope they don't.

I hope they focus on what baby M cars have always been good at: fun factor. If you've driven a GT3 you know it will leave an M3 or 1M for dead in the real world. The problem is, while you might be tripling the speed limit, you don't actually feel like you're going that fast.

That might be a good thing if you're on the autobahn or the track, but on a US street it's actually bad. I'd rather BMW focus on feelings rather than numbers. Unless you're racing against the clock you probably should too...
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      06-27-2014, 05:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
I think a 'normal' 911 is overrated since it was born. Having driving >10 in different specs(1972---1986, '89, '92 964RS, 996, 997S, been in a 997 GT3, 996GT3)
Have you ever owned a 911? I ask because it's not a car you "get" quickly or easily. It is a peculiar brand of vodka, but once you get hooked...

As for the Cayman being a "better" driver's car, that depends what you mean. It transitions more quickly, but it doesn't like to hold a slip angle nearly as much. A friend owns one of the fastest Caymans in the country, 3.8L, 2610 lbs, radial slicks, etc. It's hugely effective, but even he admits the 911 is more fun at the limit... Of course I might be biased...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmpendergrass View Post
I really hope that they give the M2 the power and handling to compete with cars like the carrera S. Then they could even make "GT" versions of the M2 to compete with porsche GT3s and the like.
I hope they don't.

I hope they focus on what baby M cars have always been good at: fun factor. If you've driven a GT3 you know it will leave an M3 or 1M for dead in the real world. The problem is, while you might be tripling the speed limit, you don't actually feel like you're going that fast.

That might be a good thing if you're on the autobahn or the track, but on a US street it's actually bad. I'd rather BMW focus on feelings rather than numbers. Unless you're racing against the clock you probably should too...
THIS.

fun > lap times
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      06-27-2014, 05:28 PM   #16
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Agree with original poster.
M2 should be a killer.
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      06-28-2014, 04:55 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
BMW M period wouldn't go for that. Ask yourself, why and how would the M2 using a modded N55, with about 375 hp, LSD, possible carbon bits and around 3,400 pounds (if that) be more expensive than the M3/M4? It doesn't make sense.
Fully agree! Makes no sense/will not happen. The upcoming M2 is clearly positioned against direct competitors like Audi RS3 (to some extent also Audi TTRS, as long as BMW (M) has no real competitor in the form of a Z 3/4 M which will exist not until the joint Toyota platform is ready), AMG A45.
That means it will exactly meet this price point.

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Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
Nor does it make sense for it to be a Carrera S competitor when that job is pretty much the M3/M4's. And by the same logic you used, the M2 would be a M3/M4 competitor, so you would have a care competing not only with the Carrera S, but with it's bigger brother as well. BMW/M ain't going for that.
Also agree - not at this time at least. The more general question imho is:
When will the M2 replace the M3/4 as the sportiest (in terms of track performance - not straight line performance) BMW?
Despite the talk about weight reduction measures with F8x, BMW faces the problem of the ever increasing size of the base 3/4 series platform. Even with the F8x (according to real weighing tests) BMW "only" managed to stop the weight increase - a real improvement to the E9x has not happened.
That means a M2 WILL be lighter. And since - from a packaging point of view - it does not matter whether you put in a N55 or S55 in the M2, it would be "easy" to make the M2 the car with the better track performance for BMW. So - how long does it make sense to "artificially" limit the M2 compared to the M3/M4?
One theoretical way out could be to create an M2 CSL:
- adopting the S55 engine in the M2 package
- aggressively work on weight reduction (CSL variants are allowed to be highly compromised -> doable)
- price it a bit higher than the M3/M4

This way (CSL), it could be easier for marketing to argue, that M2 is "more" than M4. And for me, it makes much more sense to develop a CSL on a smaller platform (M2) than on a bigger platform (M4) ....

Last edited by manuelf; 06-28-2014 at 05:10 AM.
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      06-28-2014, 06:50 AM   #18
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THIS.

fun > lap times
If it really were like that, the Toyota GT86 would be a world-hit, Mazda would have an MX-5 Coupé, and Lotus would not go bankrupt.
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      06-28-2014, 09:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Have you ever owned a 911? I ask because it's not a car you "get" quickly or easily. It is a peculiar brand of vodka, but once you get hooked...

As for the Cayman being a "better" driver's car, that depends what you mean. It transitions more quickly, but it doesn't like to hold a slip angle nearly as much. A friend owns one of the fastest Caymans in the country, 3.8L, 2610 lbs, radial slicks, etc. It's hugely effective, but even he admits the 911 is more fun at the limit... Of course I might be biased...

I hope they don't.

I hope they focus on what baby M cars have always been good at: fun factor. If you've driven a GT3 you know it will leave an M3 or 1M for dead in the real world. The problem is, while you might be tripling the speed limit, you don't actually feel like you're going that fast.

That might be a good thing if you're on the autobahn or the track, but on a US street it's actually bad. I'd rather BMW focus on feelings rather than numbers. Unless you're racing against the clock you probably should too...
GREAT post !!
And indeed Mazda ..... my 1991 Miata is still a blast !!
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      06-28-2014, 10:19 PM   #20
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If it really were like that, the Toyota GT86 would be a world-hit, Mazda would have an MX-5 Coupé, and Lotus would not go bankrupt.
Um it really is like that, the problem is there isn't enough people out there that can afford a second car or want a no compromise sports car as their only vehicle. Even Porsche almost went bankrupt and really didn't become a powerhouse until they made an SUV.

You want the M2 to compete with a 911? Ditch the turbo, the rear seats, shave a ton of weight, and change the SUV like driving position. But then it would be much slower, wouldn't sell as well and wouldn't look anything like a 2 series. Maybe the new Z5 will be that car, but its too early to tell. BMW makes the best sports sedans in the world, but I'd be shocked if they could make a sports car as good as a 911.
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      06-29-2014, 08:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manuelf
Quote:
Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
BMW M period wouldn't go for that. Ask yourself, why and how would the M2 using a modded N55, with about 375 hp, LSD, possible carbon bits and around 3,400 pounds (if that) be more expensive than the M3/M4? It doesn't make sense.
Fully agree! Makes no sense/will not happen. The upcoming M2 is clearly positioned against direct competitors like Audi RS3 (to some extent also Audi TTRS, as long as BMW (M) has no real competitor in the form of a Z 3/4 M which will exist not until the joint Toyota platform is ready), AMG A45.
That means it will exactly meet this price point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS3andME View Post
Nor does it make sense for it to be a Carrera S competitor when that job is pretty much the M3/M4's. And by the same logic you used, the M2 would be a M3/M4 competitor, so you would have a care competing not only with the Carrera S, but with it's bigger brother as well. BMW/M ain't going for that.
Also agree - not at this time at least. The more general question imho is:
When will the M2 replace the M3/4 as the sportiest (in terms of track performance - not straight line performance) BMW?
Despite the talk about weight reduction measures with F8x, BMW faces the problem of the ever increasing size of the base 3/4 series platform. Even with the F8x (according to real weighing tests) BMW "only" managed to stop the weight increase - a real improvement to the E9x has not happened.
That means a M2 WILL be lighter. And since - from a packaging point of view - it does not matter whether you put in a N55 or S55 in the M2, it would be "easy" to make the M2 the car with the better track performance for BMW. So - how long does it make sense to "artificially" limit the M2 compared to the M3/M4?
One theoretical way out could be to create an M2 CSL:
- adopting the S55 engine in the M2 package
- aggressively work on weight reduction (CSL variants are allowed to be highly compromised -> doable)
- price it a bit higher than the M3/M4

This way (CSL), it could be easier for marketing to argue, that M2 is "more" than M4. And for me, it makes much more sense to develop a CSL on a smaller platform (M2) than on a bigger platform (M4) ....
The current Z4 will grown up and become the Z5. The BMW/Toyota venture will bring to life the up and coming BMW Z7.
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      06-29-2014, 10:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi
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Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
THIS.

fun > lap times
If it really were like that, the Toyota GT86 would be a world-hit, Mazda would have an MX-5 Coup, and Lotus would not go bankrupt.
and yet those cars are way more fun than a 335. who cares about popularity!! all I care about is enjoyment!

look at Alfa Romeo....can't build a reliable car that sells....but we all want one right? right
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