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      03-28-2013, 12:29 PM   #1
Giancarlo
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2 series, A3 sedan, CLA, what are your thoughts?

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I have always been a fan of VW/Audi, was cross shopping the A5 and the 1series. At the end, the A5 had better looks and interior but for the same money it would be a 211hp 4cyl with Quattro and the 300hp 6cyl on the 1 series just seduced me.

I do like certain brands better than others, but would be open to changing if they come out with something interesting.

Before the 1 series coupe was really in a class by itself, since the A3 was a hatchback and MB really didn't have anything to compete with.

BUT, in model year 2014 there will be an A3 sedan, the CLA and the 2 series.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...YORK/130329840

That is the link to the A3 sedan and I really like it.

CLA link: http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...YORK/130329844

The CLA to me just doesn't look right, the front seems to big for the rear and just doesnt look right to me, the AMG version has an interesting power plant, but would not really compete with the M or RS versions.

The 2 series has the advantage of being a true coupe and that will help it look better, but I am really liking the Audi. If they put the 5cyl turbo in the RS3 it could make from 360-380 hp and quattro to help put all the power on the ground, this is looking very interesting to me.

What do you guys think? true competition for the 2 series? or will they flop?
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      03-28-2013, 12:49 PM   #2
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Honestly all are promising cars, never been a fan of the mercs but overall loving the idea of the big Germans bringing great cars down to a level more attainable for all. One of the reasons I love my 1er so much, small car, bigger power and built like a tank.

Gotta say that Audi looks great, really like Audi cars in general and a A3 sedan quattro with the turbo 5 cylinder would be a great combo
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      03-28-2013, 02:05 PM   #3
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I can't say I love an entire line of vehicles, even BMW, but I'm especially put off by the small Merc. It is a jekyll and Hyde car visually. Certain angles make the car hideous and then all of the sudden it's brilliant. Unfortunately for them you judge it from it's worst angle.


I do like the A3, although much more conservatively styled as usual from Audi.
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      03-28-2013, 02:08 PM   #4
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Honestly I'm just dying for the M235i!! My lease is up in Sept and I want one of them. As far as the A3 and CLA, I'm sure they will do just fine since it will put the badge in many households that don't have one now. I just hope these models force BMW to release a 1 series sedan closer to E36/E46 dimensions with similar driving pleasure.
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      03-28-2013, 02:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLSavage View Post
I can't say I love an entire line of vehicles, even BMW, but I'm especially put off by the small Merc. It is a jekyll and Hyde car visually. Certain angles make the car hideous and then all of the sudden it's brilliant. Unfortunately for them you judge it from it's worst angle.


I do like the A3, although much more conservatively styled as usual from Audi.
The Merc is nice all around with the exception of that nose, I just can't get over it along with all that massive wheel overhang.
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      03-28-2013, 04:58 PM   #6
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I agree that this will get all 3 brands into more households.

It's going to be interesting to see who gets the most sales. Audi will have a ton of engine options including diesels (although not in the US) and this might be an advantage in worldwide sales. They are also using a platform that will go into a ton of vehicles so profits will be high or prices lower than BMW or MB.

Competition usually means that the consumer wins, so I'm happy.
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      03-28-2013, 05:20 PM   #7
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I have a feeling the CLA is one of those cars that looks better in person than in pictures. I predict that we will see CLAs everywhere (similar to the number of C-classes on the roads).

The CLA45 is lining up to be a good performance value option.

The S3 at $39k leaves some room for an RS3 under $50k. An RS3 with the 5 cylinder turbo should be a great car. I predict that the S3 will be the practical end to Acura. Audi's generally come nicely optioned (unlike BMWs) and the A3/S3 will price out right in Acura's bread basket.

Audi's turbo cars tend to be "under-rated" ala BMW. My wife's Q5 2.0T is very quick for an SUV and I believe it has to have more than its 211hp rated power (it feels very similar to BMW N20 that is rated as much more powerful).

A few magazines have suggested that essentially all of the German 2.0L turbo and direct injection engines put about the same power (regardless of the ratings) as they have very similar designs. The CLA AMG engine is sure to be a gem.
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      03-28-2013, 08:29 PM   #8
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Maybe the CLA looks better in person, I have seen the A class and just doesn't look right.

I think BMW will have the handlling advantage in the normal models, as the MB and the Audi are FWD, but the S3, 235 will be different but with great performance (MB has nothing in the 300hp range) and then we shall see with the M2 and what engine they end up putting in it, and if the RS3 has the 5cyl turbo that makes the most sense for them.

If the M2 has a 6cyl turbo and audi the 2.5, 5 cyl turbo, I just don't see how the AMG can have a competetive linear power delivery with a 2.0 turbo pushing 26lbs of pressure.

Still really excited about having more cars in this category, wanted to hear what others thought.
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      03-28-2013, 08:38 PM   #9
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Having owned an audi, and spending a lot of time in my mothers a3, i still really like them. The new a3 sedan looks great. I have NEVER been a fan of any mercs except for the very old models. And this new cla is no exception for me.. I'm very excited for the m235I. It will probably be between that and the a3 for my next car.
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      03-29-2013, 03:43 PM   #10
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The rear of the CLA looks like it's melting off the car.
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      03-29-2013, 05:15 PM   #11
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Audi looks awesome. No interest at all in the 2 series - don't want a car with drive mode choices (just be sporty all the time please), electric steering (hydraulic, please), fake engine noise tracks being played through the speakers (just make real noise, please), or start/stop (when I start you, just stay on, please). BUT I'm sure it's going to look awesome. And I'm sure the 2 series Gran Coupe will make me moist.
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      03-29-2013, 06:02 PM   #12
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The CLA's engine is a marvel of engineering. The numbers are extremely impressive.
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      03-29-2013, 06:31 PM   #13
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BMW better bring its "A" game with the next 1-series sedan and 2-series, since Merc and Audi look to be offering pretty well-engineered, value priced and attractive entry level models. I'm seriously considering the S3 next year, unless BMW actually decides to offer a 2-series GC.
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      04-01-2013, 09:48 PM   #14
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The Audi S3 will be my next car. That is unless the next Z4/Toyota venture happens before 2015.
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      04-01-2013, 10:47 PM   #15
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The new S3 is very tempting with 296 hp, quattro, 33 MPG combined, and a starting price around 39,000 in the US. It is hard to beat such a package. It would be interesting to see how BMW prices the M235i.
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      04-02-2013, 03:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Man View Post
BMW better bring its "A" game with the next 1-series sedan and 2-series, since Merc and Audi look to be offering pretty well-engineered, value priced and attractive entry level models. I'm seriously considering the S3 next year, unless BMW actually decides to offer a 2-series GC.
hmm i was not aware that there will be a 1 series sedan...? if it looks anything like the blue 1 series sedan render in the other thread, with same M135 performance + rwd + inline 6 then OMG!! TAKE MY MONEY NOW!! and of course hoping it will make it over here to canada!!
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      04-02-2013, 04:10 PM   #17
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While BMW's timing is clearly awful, and they're so far behind in this game that they're practically beat before they get to the field, let's not forget that the MB and Audi are fwd based. Even when "awd" it's not the same thing as their quattro or 4Matic cars. The CLA45 is fwd until it detects slip and the S3 is likely to be a similar Haldex setup to the Mk6 Golf R which runs a fixed ratio to the back, but it's a very small ratio, around 10% and can allocate more as slip is detected. This is not what most people think of as awd and not like the fixed 40/60 splits that most German cars offer, or what the EVO, WRX or GT-R offer.
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      04-03-2013, 09:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
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. The CLA45 is fwd until it detects slip.
Incorrect. The CLA45 employs a permanent AWD system, powered by a new compact PTU. It functions(at least on the CLA) in 70:30 and can, If the driving dynamics require, split the torque between front and rear axle at a ratio
of up to 50 : 50 percent.

Feel free to Google it, check the press release, or find the white papers that came with it.

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      04-03-2013, 09:55 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Incorrect. The CLA45 employs a permanent AWD system, powered by a new compact PTU. It functions(at least on the CLA) in 70:30 and can, If the driving dynamics require, split the torque between front and rear axle at a ratio
of up to 50 : 50 percent.

Feel free to Google it, check the press release, or find the white papers that came with it.
What I've read does not sound like it's a permanent power distribution (which is odd since Haldex4 and newer have included this and MB is using Haldex). This includes a discussion with the head engineer who says:

"The car can send 50 percent of the drive to the back diff if it needs to, and you vary the torque split with the ESP button. It's normally front-wheel drive with the AWD as a traction support system, but in Sport it moves more torque to the back," Mr. Moers said.

http://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz...oad-test1.html

So best case, it can send 50% of the power to the rear wheels, or still be less rear biased than a 4Matic car (or xDrive or quattro) before it detects slip. Still sounds like a bucket of understeer. Let's wait for actual reviews though.
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      04-03-2013, 11:19 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
What I've read does not sound like it's a permanent power distribution (which is odd since Haldex4 and newer have included this and MB is using Haldex). This includes a discussion with the head engineer who says:

"The car can send 50 percent of the drive to the back diff if it needs to, and you vary the torque split with the ESP button. It's normally front-wheel drive with the AWD as a traction support system, but in Sport it moves more torque to the back," Mr. Moers said.

http://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz...oad-test1.html

So best case, it can send 50% of the power to the rear wheels, or still be less rear biased than a 4Matic car (or xDrive or quattro) before it detects slip. Still sounds like a bucket of understeer. Let's wait for actual reviews though.
Yeah, I believe there is double speak on this from MB. A few outlets are reporting that it is permanent, MB's white paper says it is, but other places and press releases are saying it isn't. MB is saying the new E63 is permanent, however.

BMW just needs to show the 2er sooner rather than later. Show a concept version this summer, the production in the Fall. They are losing mindshare and its hard to be fully excited about a secret.
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      04-03-2013, 12:54 PM   #21
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Agreed, BMW could clean up from a driving dynamics standpoint in this market if they got a rwd car to market against a bunch of fwd based cars. I really don't understand how BMW let things get this far behind. Honestly, I'd be worried that Subaru/Toyota figure out how to make an FR-S/BRZ sedan, which could really stand out in this market.

The E63 is a regular, rwd based 4Matic setup, so it's going to be much more aggressive than the CLA45.
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      04-04-2013, 04:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Agreed, BMW could clean up from a driving dynamics standpoint in this market if they got a rwd car to market against a bunch of fwd based cars. I really don't understand how BMW let things get this far behind. Honestly, I'd be worried that Subaru/Toyota figure out how to make an FR-S/BRZ sedan, which could really stand out in this market.

The E63 is a regular, rwd based 4Matic setup, so it's going to be much more aggressive than the CLA45.
I think you're onto something with Subaru/Toyota. I'm thinking that these German luxury brands are going to find themselves competing with companies and cars they've never had to compete with before. The new Subaru WRX concept looks really nice, and if it makes it to production that way, it will likely be priced slightly under the new 2GC.

I am also eager to see the new S3 in person. Early rumblings are that it will be automatic only, so that could leave some room for BMW to come in with a "pure" RWD small coupe and sedan (gran coupe) with optional 6MT that can at least perform on the same level as the S3. While the CLA might have nice specs, I think it looks awful and the front overhang makes the entire car look disproportionate.
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