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      12-20-2012, 03:32 PM   #111
Antares
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You get it. They fell for it.

Appearance is all

You would hardly believe what various gurus of healthy eating manage to sell to the populace.
Few biochemistry principles of human metabolism were extended to thousands of pages, that fill thousands of books. The "healthy eating" gurus that accuse the food industry are themselves an industry (of words, books and "bio" products) and prime manipulators.

Considering what people send down their blessed throats, I think that this aluminium discussion is really of no big worry.
Imagine if someone would begin to advertise chassis parts in titanium! Or even better vanadium!


For me personally the best car would be a combination of modern high strength steel and carbon fibers.
Regretfully the costs are going to be prohibitive for the next 20 years.
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      12-20-2012, 03:59 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
Wait, that's what I was trying to argue to you...I guess I misread what you wrote. I thought you were trying to say "aluminum will always be less stiff," and my point was that they obviously designed the subframe differently to get around aluminum's inherent softness but it seems that we're on the same page.
Gotcha. We are in agreement then.
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      12-20-2012, 04:06 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Antares View Post
Appearance is all

You would hardly believe what various gurus of healthy eating manage to sell to the populace.
Few biochemistry principles of human metabolism were extended to thousands of pages, that fill thousands of books. The "healthy eating" gurus that accuse the food industry are themselves an industry (of words, books and "bio" products) and prime manipulators.

Considering what people send down their blessed throats, I think that this aluminium discussion is really of no big worry.
Imagine if someone would begin to advertise chassis parts in titanium! Or even better vanadium!


For me personally the best car would be a combination of modern high strength steel and carbon fibers.
Regretfully the costs are going to be prohibitive for the next 20 years.
Agreed on all accounts. Except, I was hoping for door panels made from a Beryllium metal-matrix-composite, lol. 20 gram door panels and, it'll even give you cancer!


I totally agree about the mix of steels and carbon. Although, I don't know if the time frame is really going to be that long. High K carbon fiber will become much more available, once the aerospace manufacturers chill out. I think that will happen before the 20 year mark. The other issue is making carbon fiber uni-bodies that are repairable. I'd hate for my car to be totaled after a deep scratch or, a 15mph bump. But, OMG, imagine an E46 sized M3/M4 with a 350hp all aluminum FI motor, that weighs ~3000 pounds and gets like 35-40mpg.
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      12-20-2012, 04:16 PM   #114
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Agreed on all accounts. Except, I was hoping for door panels made from a Beryllium metal-matrix-composite, lol. 20 gram door panels and, it'll even give you cancer!


I totally agree about the mix of steels and carbon. Although, I don't know if the time frame is really going to be that long. High K carbon fiber will become much more available, once the aerospace manufacturers chill out. I think that will happen before the 20 year mark. The other issue is making carbon fiber uni-bodies that are repairable. I'd hate for my car to be totaled after a deep scratch or, a 15mph bump. But, OMG, imagine an E46 sized M3/M4 with a 350hp all aluminum FI motor, that weighs ~3000 pounds and gets like 35-40mpg.
I'm more excited about a 5 series with a significant weight reduction; the whole luxury package in a car that drives like a 3 series!!
At the moment the 5 series drives like a train wagon; it's just too heavy.

BMW also hoped it would scale down sooner, the investment in that carbon fiber producer is not going anywhere. this and long tech cycles in Auto-motive industry don't make me hope before that 20 years.

Actually I was thinking about how great organic compound based doors would be! Imagine, repairing themselves from scratches! Hmm, how about an complex organic molecular structure (let us say pseudo aromatic) that chelates metallic ions!!!
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      12-20-2012, 04:26 PM   #115
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I'm more excited about a 5 series with a significant weight reduction; the whole luxury package in a car that drives like a 3 series!!
At the moment the 5 series drives like a train wagon; it's just too heavy.

BMW also hoped it would scale down sooner, the investment in that carbon fiber producer is not going anywhere. this and long tech cycles in Auto-motive industry don't make me hope before that 20 years.

Actually I was thinking about how great organic compound based doors would be! Imagine, repairing themselves from scratches! Hmm, how about an complex organic molecular structure (let us say pseudo aromatic) that chelates metallic ions!!!
Yeah, you're right. I wasn't thinking about things holistically. The other problem is that I think most drivers, BMW's bread and butter, the people that don't care about car performance like we do, like the direction BMW is going with the size of their cars.

Good god, BMW's cars are so large. I have to add that I usually see women driving the 7 series and, I have no idea why they like it so much.


Organic compounds, eh? A nice aromia would be sweet (hehe) but, why chelation? You'll just end up with metal road dust in your map pocket.


Actually, now that I think about it, you could pick up some rather precious metals that way. Catalytic converter theft would be a thing of the past, haha.
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      12-20-2012, 04:44 PM   #116
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Yeah, you're right. I wasn't thinking about things holistically. The other problem is that I think most drivers, BMW's bread and butter, the people that don't care about car performance like we do, like the direction BMW is going with the size of their cars.

Good god, BMW's cars are so large. I have to add that I usually see women driving the 7 series and, I have no idea why they like it so much.


Organic compounds, eh? A nice aromia would be sweet (hehe) but, why chelation? You'll just end up with metal road dust in your map pocket.


Actually, now that I think about it, you could pick up some rather precious metals that way. Catalytic converter theft would be a thing of the past, haha.
10 years ago BMW stated, that Mercedes makes long cars and BMW makes shorter sporty vehicles.
Now just look at the 6 series Coupe; a fish formed design.
A sports car must be large and long only enough to fit the seats and the engine.
The same goes for the new 3 series; it got very long. The 3 series should be a car meant primarily for the driver and one front passenger. The car should be made larger and not longer. The front shoulder room feels like in a VW Golf! (where is that luxury feeling of the 5 series on the front seats?)

The women like the comfort of the 7 series.
A friend of mine got the X6 for his wife; she was not satisfied; she said the car drives like a fat bibber, and that she must climb to get inside (quite impossible in a skirt).
So the husband had to part with his limo and he got the X6 (it was sold quite quickly).

I think I know what it needs to make a superior M engine and chassis! Rhenium!
Rhenium is used in superalloys to vastly improve creep strength (jet engine parts)!

Last edited by Antares; 12-20-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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      12-20-2012, 04:56 PM   #117
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10 years ago BMW stated, that Mercedes makes long cars and BMW makes shorter sporty vehicles.
Now just look at the 6 series Coupe; a fish formed design.
A sports car must be large and long only enough to fit the seats and the engine.
The same goes for the new 3 series; it got very long. The 3 series should be a car for the driver and one front passenger. The car should be made larger and not longer. The front shoulder room feels like in a VW Golf! (where is that luxury feeling of the 5 series on the front seats?)

The women like the comfort of the 7 series.
A friend of mine got the X6 for his wife; she was not satisfied; she said the car drives like a fat bibber, and that she must climb to get inside (quite impossible in a skirt.
So the husband had to part with his limo and he got the X6 (it was sold quite quickly).
Well, BMW is definitely out to make money, it's not the automaker it was in 1995.

I'm not a fan of the direction of the new 3 series, either. There is no reason to make it a mini 6 series. And, it's not really a mini version either. I think the tentative dimensions were something like 2 inches shorter than the current 6 series. Ridiculous. The only saving grace is that the 2 series may end up being the correct size.

I've never really spent any time in a 5 series or a 7 series. I know that hte 7 series tends to be at the cusp of new technological and ergonomic developments but, as far as comfort goes, I thought the 5 series was just about a good as the 7. Maybe I'm wrong.

If my wife wore skirts often, I'd make damn sure I watched her climb into an X6 every day. haha.

More seriously, I understand where your friend's wife is coming from. I'm just not yet understanding why the 7 series is preferable.
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      12-20-2012, 05:11 PM   #118
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Well, BMW is definitely out to make money, it's not the automaker it was in 1995.

I'm not a fan of the direction of the new 3 series, either. There is no reason to make it a mini 6 series. And, it's not really a mini version either. I think the tentative dimensions were something like 2 inches shorter than the current 6 series. Ridiculous. The only saving grace is that the 2 series may end up being the correct size.

I've never really spent any time in a 5 series or a 7 series. I know that hte 7 series tends to be at the cusp of new technological and ergonomic developments but, as far as comfort goes, I thought the 5 series was just about a good as the 7. Maybe I'm wrong.

If my wife wore skirts often, I'd make damn sure I watched her climb into an X6 every day. haha.

More seriously, I understand where your friend's wife is coming from. I'm just not yet understanding why the 7 series is preferable.
It's okay that BMW wants to make money; it's needed to prosper. The problem is the direction taken by some guys in the marketing department.
They should use another brand name or badge for the FWD platform. In few years time, when one says "I'm driving BMW" the others are not going to think on a luxury vehicle.
Mercedes innovated the CLS (Coupe sedan) and BMW is now copying this into the 2 Gran Coupe, 4 Gran Coupe, 6 Gran Coupe,...
Where are the body forms of true sports cars? A sedan form with two doors is not a sports car (6er Coupe).

The new 5 series is practically as good as the 7 series.
The wife just got what the husband was driving.

over and out! it's late here in Europe I'm going to saw some wood in my bed
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      12-20-2012, 11:57 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
2013 (E82) 135i length: 172.2 in

2006 (E46) M3 length: 176.9 in

That gives them almost 5 inches to grow, while still remaining shorter than an E46 M3. I'm optimistic.
I think the change in size between the E81 and new 1er will be a good indicator of size.

E46 Coupe
Wheelbase- 107.3 inches
Length- 176.7 inches

1-Series 3-Door Hatchback (E81)
Wheelbase- 104.7 inches
Length- 166.9 inches

1-Series 2-Door Coupe (E82)
Wheelbase- 104.7 inches
Length- 172.2 inches

1-Series 3-Door Hatchback (F21)
Wheelbase- 105.9
Length- 170.2

Estimated F22 Size Based on Change Between E81 and F21
Wheelbase- 105.9 inches
Length- 175.5 inches
Weight*- +20 lbs over E82

* Calculated using the difference in weight between the 116d (F21) and the 116d (E81) which both use the N47D20. This should be roughly accurate for all models using the same engine as their predecessor. Using the difference in weight between the N52 528i and the N20 a528i we can estimate that the 228i might end up weighing about 10 lbs less than the 128i/130i. This would put the 228i at 3,198lbs if my estimations are accurate. Bear in mind that the only thing that is a fact is that I have way too much free time. haha
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      12-21-2012, 02:46 AM   #120
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You don't understand the characteristics of the aluminum and steel alloys that are available to the auto industry. Or, I should say, you don't understand why materials are chosen for specific purposes, and how those purposes influence the design process. And, you need to do a bit of research to understand exactly what stiffness and strength are, with respect to engineering materials. You're confusing them.



The idea that an aluminum part will always be strong and lighter than a steel part is incorrect. Available steels are stronger, stiffer and have higher ultimate and rupture strengths, better fatigue properties, etc. Making the jump from the material properties to a well designed part is tenuous, because design criteria, resources, goals, etc, play a huge part in why certain materials are chosen. However, suffice to say that one cannot just assume that aluminum parts are always going to be stiffer and lighter.


No. You are talking about STIFFNESS per unit weight, not strength. In material property terms, there are many different "types" of strength, the definition of which depend on how you are defining material failure. Wikipedia has a good article on this.


Again, "can" does not mean "always". As you acknowledged, it depends on the design. Usually, in this regard, one characteristic is optimized, while the other is not. It's very rare that a designer can replace a steel part with an identical aluminum one that is lighter and stiffer. Usually, when that happens, it's a consequence of a poor previous design and/or improvements in design and manufacturing technology. To use a more equal comparison, if you were to design optimized parts, one aluminum and one steel, for the same application, at the same time, to the best of your engineering ability, the steel part will be STIFFER and STRONGER but the aluminum one will be LIGHTER.


You're making some serious assumptions about the particulars of the design of the subframes, without knowing anything about them except that BMW is using aluminum. Worse yet, you're comparing subframes from two different generations of BMW cars! There are so many ways to make a subframe for one car lighter and stiffer than a subframe from another, when the two cars are of a different design! The newer car could have a physically smaller subframe, it could be redesigned to be more rigid in torsion, bending, compression, tension, or any other complex loading condition, etc. Saying that the subframe is lighter AND stronger just because it's aluminum is myopic, at best and just downright wrong, at worst.

BMW's marketing department, maybe, or an insider has leaked this information just to pique interest. No one is going to release a full design brief on the subframes, unfortunately. And, that would be needed to fully understand HOW BMW is making the subframes lighter and stiffer. Saying it's just because they switched to aluminum, when aluminum is no where near as stiff, as strong or as fatigue resistant as steel, is just wrong.
I wrote a long response to your rant and it did not upload so you will only get this. You have made several wild assumptions from my casual statement in "round terms". I wrote "don't flame me" to protect me from idiots like you.

I have done material design for loudspeakers for over 20 years on equipment far more expensive than any BMW. I have a CES International Design and Engineering award I can email you a picture of anytime you want to see it. Do you think I might know a thing or two about this subject?

Think about what I said and your reactive and illogical response. When I wrote it would be out of aluminum and stiffer was because I believe BMW knows plenty about subframe design and would never change materials without a through redesign of the parts and in doing so would make it stiffer to be in an M car. Duh! BMW might even know more than you. Heck the rumor I heard could be wrong and it is being made out of steel?

Having added $2500 + of M3 components to my 135 I know the differences between both M and non M subframes and the newer generation F series geometry etc. All I was suggesting is what I heard rumored about the weight savings to benefit everyone and you went off about your materials peeve to try and show off all you think you know. This is a form for enthusiast not an online class. Don't bother to respond to this as I am done with you an your illogical assumptions and rants. Relax dude, take your medication, and have a nice holiday!
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      12-21-2012, 10:16 AM   #121
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.........
Quote:
I wrote a long response to your rant and it did not upload so you will only get this.
Perfect, less crap to respond too.

Quote:
I have done material design for loudspeakers for over 20 years on equipment far more expensive than any BMW. I have a CES International Design and Engineering award I can email you a picture of anytime you want to see it. Do you think I might know a thing or two about this subject?
Whatever accolades you have recieved, I care not for them. I'm concerned only with what you wrote in this thread. Don't waste your time uploading pictures of extreaneous material. We are dealing with simple stuff here, things a first year engineering student understands, things that we can discuss without the need for posturing.

Quote:
Think about what I said and your reactive and illogical response. When I wrote it would be out of aluminum and stiffer was because I believe BMW knows plenty about subframe design and would never change materials without a through redesign of the parts and in doing so would make it stiffer to be in an M car. Duh! BMW might even know more than you. Heck the rumor I heard could be wrong and it is being made out of steel?
This is an entirely different position from your previous, from one that suggested an increase in stiffness of the subframe that was achieved only via the merrits of modern aluminum alloys. What you wrote here actually makes sense. Why you didn't bother to post this the first time, I will never know. You have said you have design experience as a real world engineer? When then, why would you proffer incomplete ideas, when you should be intimately familiar with the machine design process. And, when you know how important percision with words and numbers is to our profession. Saying that the subframe will be stiffer just because its aluminum is a misprepresentation. I very politely and very logically pointed out that your conclusion was incorrect. Then, you say I have to take medication. And, you're calling me reactionary? Right......
I'm not going to suggest you are a bad engineer, since internet forums tend to reduce tacit knowledge to the least common demoninator but, good god. Engineers who behave like this in the work place are dreadful to work with.
This has nothing to do with BMW and their chassis engineers. I was never even talking about how BMW performs their chassis design process. I was talking about you and the assertions you were making about BMW's final product. That bit you have about BMW is just a non sequitur.....

Quote:
Having added $2500 + of M3 components to my 135 I know the differences between both M and non M subframes and the newer generation F series geometry etc.
That's fine. Lots of people here, including myself, have either added M parts to their non M vehicles and/or driver M cars themselves. We all know the chassis in the M cars are better.

Quote:
All I was suggesting is what I heard rumored about the weight savings to benefit everyone and you went off about your materials peeve to try and show off all you think you know. This is a form for enthusiast not an online class. Don't bother to respond to this as I am done with you an your illogical assumptions and rants. Relax dude, take your medication, and have a nice holiday!
Jesus Christ...... This isn't a class room so, you can just post incorrect information? You know laypeople take the engineers word as canon. I'm glad Antares get's it.

Last edited by Jonjt; 12-21-2012 at 10:26 AM.
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      12-21-2012, 10:21 AM   #122
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It's okay that BMW wants to make money; it's needed to prosper. The problem is the direction taken by some guys in the marketing department.
They should use another brand name or badge for the FWD platform. In few years time, when one says "I'm driving BMW" the others are not going to think on a luxury vehicle.
Mercedes innovated the CLS (Coupe sedan) and BMW is now copying this into the 2 Gran Coupe, 4 Gran Coupe, 6 Gran Coupe,...
Where are the body forms of true sports cars? A sedan form with two doors is not a sports car (6er Coupe).

The new 5 series is practically as good as the 7 series.
The wife just got what the husband was driving.

over and out! it's late here in Europe I'm going to saw some wood in my bed
Indeed, indeed. I want them to make money, too. Because, I'm not even sure the M division actually makes money off of the cars they produce. The basal cars need to sell for the halo vehicles to be made.

I do agree that the marketing goons are pushing a lot of these changes but, I don't think they would ever go with another brand. I think they are trying to capitalize on the BMW appeal. Unfortunately, I think all these models, particularly the cheaper FWD models, are just going to dilute the BMW name. We'll see, I guess. (I think you are suggesting the same)

Cool man, I'm going to suggest my mother buy a 550xi, instead of the 7 she was going for. Nice!

Later!
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      12-21-2012, 12:44 PM   #123
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Because, I'm not even sure the M division actually makes money off of the cars they produce. The basal cars need to sell for the halo vehicles to be made.

I do agree that the marketing goons are pushing a lot of these changes but, I don't think they would ever go with another brand. I think they are trying to capitalize on the BMW appeal. Unfortunately, I think all these models, particularly the cheaper FWD models, are just going to dilute the BMW name. We'll see, I guess. (I think you are suggesting the same)

Cool man, I'm going to suggest my mother buy a 550xi, instead of the 7 she was going for. Nice!

Later!
-it's not that important if M division and high end models make money; Rolly-Royce, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Bentley, Lotus, Bugatti... made supreme cars. Their salvation was a mass-producer. Technological development is too expensive for niche vehicles.

-BMW as a name is already weak and is still going down. In Europe you can buy a 114 with 102HP!! The 3 series is not put significantly better.
The BMW appeal is not going to last long, once the market gets inundated with cheap crap. I mean, who cares to ask "what engine do you have?"
People in general ask "what car do you drive?" and are not interested in the optional list or engine specifications.

That's why Porsche explained they're not going below a certain price level with the new models; (they're planning a 5 series equivalent.)

I think that a 550i is a little too thirsty; diesel engines are going to debut in the USA, so maybe you should think in that direction.
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      12-21-2012, 12:54 PM   #124
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-it's not that important if M division and high end models make money; Rolly-Royce, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, Bentley, Lotus, Bugatti... made supreme cars. Their salvation was a mass-producer. Technological development is too expensive for niche vehicles.

-BMW as a name is already weak and is still going down. In Europe you can buy a 114 with 102HP!! The 3 series is not put significantly better.
The BMW appeal is not going to last long, once the market gets inundated with cheap crap. I mean, who cares to ask "what engine do you have?"
People in general ask "what car do you drive?" and are not interested in the optional list or engine specifications.

That's why Porsche explained they're not going below a certain price level with the new models; (they're planning a 5 series equivalent.)

I think that a 550i is a little too thirsty; diesel engines are going to debut in the USA, so maybe you should think in that direction.
You're right, on all accounts. I've never been the type to value brand image when making buying decisions. However, the diluted quality of the new BMW may well force me to other brands. At least, BMW is working hard to save me a lot of money!


The 550xi is very thirsty but, my mother wants a fast vehicle. She doesnt drive much and, gas in the states is cheap so, I think she'll be okay. Maybe I'll even be able to convince her to get a tune.
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      12-21-2012, 01:10 PM   #125
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You're right, on all accounts. I've never been the type to value brand image when making buying decisions. However, the diluted quality of the new BMW may well force me to other brands. At least, BMW is working hard to save me a lot of money!


The 550xi is very thirsty but, my mother wants a fast vehicle. She doesnt drive much and, gas in the states is cheap so, I think she'll be okay. Maybe I'll even be able to convince her to get a tune.
So, while you're thinking what else to buy, you'll in the meantime save some money?
There is not much choice left, if you consider quality. Porsche, Mercedes.
(Audi is one step bellow and other brands are very expensive(Ferrari, Aston Martin) or lack quality(Maserati)).

European and especially BMW diesel engines are very fast and very responsive. Actually they're even more pleasurable to drive.

I never quite understood why you Americans adore such overpowered cars; I mean, the speed limits on the motorways are lower than those on common European roads, if you get caught driving too fast you finish in prison,....
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      12-21-2012, 02:12 PM   #126
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So, while you're thinking what else to buy, you'll in the meantime save some money?
There is not much choice left, if you consider quality. Porsche, Mercedes.
(Audi is one step bellow and other brands are very expensive(Ferrari, Aston Martin) or lack quality(Maserati)).

European and especially BMW diesel engines are very fast and very responsive. Actually they're even more pleasurable to drive.

I never quite understood why you Americans adore such overpowered cars; I mean, the speed limits on the motorways are lower than those on common European roads, if you get caught driving too fast you finish in prison,....
I will indeed save a good bit, waiting while my 335i lives its life. However, the real money savings may come about if I decide to buy a shitbox just to get from A to B.

You're right, after all. There are so few quality brands left. Mercedes doesn't make any manual transmission models anymore. Porsche is too expensive to drive daily, for me. Audi is a step below, offers 4 wheel drive I don't need/want and traditionally doesnt drive as well as BMW's best. I'm not excited by anything the Americans are making and, the Japanese haven't produced anything exciting AND of good quality, aside from the FRS/BRZ. So, I may just buy a POS for daily driving and, save for a few years to get a used 991 or a 997.

I do think that BMW's diesels are rather nice but, it's hard to convince the old lady of that. People her age get stuck in their ways and, worse yet, she doesn't understand automotive technology, at all. To her, diesels of today ar the diesels of old. Loud, slow, ticking, and smelly.

You are touching on a point that I think about everytime I mash the pedal in my car. American roads are generally shitty. American drivers are generally not so great, speed limits are low and, watching for police all the time is rather stressful. And yet, I'm still looking to tune my N54. There is no logical explination for why a daily has to have 300+hp and a stiff chassis. We can't use it safely anywhere. But, we still want lots of horsepower.

In my case, the issue is that it's impossible to get a car with a proper chassis, without spending lots of money and buying a 400+hp motor. The only car I can think of that bucks this trend is the FRS/BRZ. I hope that changes the paradigm because, I really don't need even the N54's HP all the time. Having a sharp chassis is far more fun, at legal speeds, than lots of power. BMW was once the go-to manufacturer for such things but, I'll have to look else where, when I purchase next. If things do go well, I'll buy something like the BRZ/FRS for everyday driving and, have something from Stuttgart or, some garage in the UK, for weekend romping on the backroads and, at the track.
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      12-21-2012, 02:36 PM   #127
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I do think that BMW's diesels are rather nice but, it's hard to convince the old lady of that. People her age get stuck in their ways and, worse yet, she doesn't understand automotive technology, at all. To her, diesels of today ar the diesels of old. Loud, slow, ticking, and smelly.

In my case, the issue is that it's impossible to get a car with a proper chassis, without spending lots of money and buying a 400+hp motor. The only car I can think of that bucks this trend is the FRS/BRZ.
Having a sharp chassis is far more fun, at legal speeds, than lots of power. BMW was once the go-to manufacturer for such things but, I'll have to look else where, when I purchase next. If things do go well, I'll buy something like the BRZ/FRS for everyday driving and, have something from Stuttgart.
I can think only on one car that would satisfy all your needs.
The new Porsche Cayman.
It's affordable (some 56.000 $), it's beautiful, and the way it drives! You almost get the feeling of driving a motorcycle!

BRZ/FRS are totally not usable for driving; like a surf board with wheels; teriible

Your mother is right on one point; diesels stink! With this humid winter weather you turn off the car, go to take something from the back and you have to hold your breath from the acidic penetrating smell; it stinks beyond description.
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      12-21-2012, 07:59 PM   #128
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I can think only on one car that would satisfy all your needs.
The new Porsche Cayman.
It's affordable (some 56.000 $), it's beautiful, and the way it drives! You almost get the feeling of driving a motorcycle!

BRZ/FRS are totally not usable for driving; like a surf board with wheels; teriible

Your mother is right on one point; diesels stink! With this humid winter weather you turn off the car, go to take something from the back and you have to hold your breath from the acidic penetrating smell; it stinks beyond description.
A Cayman, you say? I'm really not familiar with the Cayman. Was a new generation released? Every review i've read/seen said that the Cayman (maybe the old one) was a great track car but, that BMWs FI offerings were superior daily drivers (particularly the 1M). Is the newest one still of a peaky N/A design?

So, what's wrong with the BRZ/FRS? Everyone I know who has one loves it.

I guess I'll have to do a better job with the diesel emission control devices I analysize! haha. Urea injection is a stinky business.
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      12-22-2012, 02:11 PM   #129
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Was a new generation released?

So, what's wrong with the BRZ/FRS? Everyone I know who has one loves it.
Yes, there is a new generation; presented few weeks ago.

BRZ/FRS are practically not usable for everyday life.

Of course, BMW offers much more car for the money.
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      12-22-2012, 08:43 PM   #130
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Yes, there is a new generation; presented few weeks ago.

BRZ/FRS are practically not usable for everyday life.

Of course, BMW offers much more car for the money.
Not a fan of those headlights. I think Porsches should always round headlights.

Anyway, why isn't the BRZ/FRS usable for daily driving, in your opinion?

Man, if I had an 1M, I'd never complain.
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      12-23-2012, 07:05 AM   #131
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Anyway, why isn't the BRZ/FRS usable for daily driving, in your opinion?

Man, if I had an 1M, I'd never complain.
The plastic inside the car is a leftover from old Russian auto industry; you must push with force through the short and "crispy" transmission and the suspension is great only on a freshly asphalted road.

yes, the BMW 1M was great; the concept even better.
They decided to make this 2 Coupe (2 door sedan) instead.
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      12-23-2012, 04:21 PM   #132
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The plastic inside the car is a leftover from old Russian auto industry; you must push with force through the short and "crispy" transmission and the suspension is great only on a freshly asphalted road.

yes, the BMW 1M was great; the concept even better.
They decided to make this 2 Coupe (2 door sedan) instead.
Well, it's a Subaru car, it's going to have a shit interior. The bits about the transmission and the suspension are unfortunate, though. That would make it uncomfortable to drive on nearly every road in the north east US.

The 2 coupe interests me, even though I'm not a huge fan of the way it looks.
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