[Antares]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

What nonsense I have read on this thread.

Nico Huet, the designer of the F20, is not getting fired, because the car has exceeded BMW's expectations and is a success.

The 2er is not back to the drawing board as the car has nothing to do with the 1er in the first place. It will be familiar but executed differently.
We might be coming late to the market but the 6er Gran Coupe shows that when we do we make a lot of noise.

Originally Posted by Sol01

Scott is correct. F20 is doing quite well.

F20 is a success? did BMW hire Jürgen Schrempp for internal motivation courses?


Mercedes sold more than 50.000 new A class vehicles even before the Paris Motor Show.
After the Show, more than 60.000 visitors stormed dealerships all across France. (considering that the french auto market is in free fall...this could be named success)
Not everything is in the sales(many will not buy, however they'll want it and the brand and car perception and desirability are going to skyrocket).

Let me think; BMW has a technologically superior car in a key European market for this type of cars, premium rear wheel drive, superb engines, automatic transmission that can rival a Rolls and? the introduction of F20 was a prime event for those in BMW marketing department (more or less)
What competition did BMW face? OLD VW Golf, and OLD Audi A3.
So, BMW F20 WAS (past term) doing quite well.

Mercedes was against a new BMW F20, a just presented new generation of VW Golf, new Audi A3, new Audi A3 sportback, new Toyota Auris, Volvo V40.
Mercedes is offering a mass market "Golf" FWD car with a Mercedes badge.

BMW F20, technically by far the most advanced compact, got hit my mass market compacts ONLY because of the design.
The designer team is not getting fired, no, no...
The workers will get fired, if the production lowers itself (a). Some (design) visionaries will proclaim success at the same time... Well, it's true that art is difficult and not for everyone to understand,...

(a) (European market is heading towards a collapse next year; today the news just got out, that VW is reducing production of cars bigger than Golf because companies are reducing orders; I think that 70% of BMWs are sold to companies?)

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
About the 2er; familiar to the 1er?
More shoulder room than the 1er, a larger car is needed. And a new dashboard and central console, since the current one is far from premium.

The new 2er is crucial for BMW, to mend things in the compact segment. The only problem being, that is has to go on sale in early 2014.
BMW might get hit very hard on the European market without a 2er sedan.
The second car important for the European market is going to be that BMW 1 Van.
Two cars, each with a mission.


I almost forgot. My friend has the new 7er (bought not leased) and was looking at that 6er Gran coupe. Conclusion? Would buy but I prefer the 7er at this price point. I fully share his opinion; by the way, we are both 30+ years old.
Yes, BMW made lots of noise. When the noise placates, it's to hope that grave silence it not going to reign (aka Maybach).


The picture below is taken from the German Auto-Motor und Sport magazine (article: Designer cars with limited usability).

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Sol01

M sport version of F30 has been out for months. main problem for F30 is price and the fact that others have caught up with it

Not all markets are affected by the US response of the F30.
The car is a success in several markets and will continue to be successful now that the F31 has got off to a great start with a few thousand customers taking delivery of the car immiently.
The 3er Li in China has also got off to a great start.

If you are referring that the C-Klasse and A4 are on the level of the F30? then you are mistaken.
There is a considerable gap between the C-Klasse and even longer one between the Audi A4.
There is even an interview with somebody from Mercedes-Benz stating that they had to start again on several key areas of development because the 3er F30 had changed the rules for the segment.
The 3er is still the benchmark for the segment.

[ovekvam]

I checked some statistics for sales in Norway, which is a rather small market. The X3 is best selling model with a good margin. F20 (1-series) and F10 (5-series) are even on second place, and the F30 (3 series) is only fourth. The 3-series used to be the best seller, and I think it will climb again now that it is available as a Touring (very popular in Norway). While sedans are very popular in USA and China, they are not in Norway.

[Antares]

I think that statistics shows that 3/4 of such sedans as the 3er, VW Passat Caravan (and other brands) are sold in Germany in Touring/Caravan form; such cars are in vast majority company cars.
Other global markets put elegance in the first place, the cars reflect personal taste and not a company "transport", therefore Sedan has a much bigger importance.

Mercedes is in all probability going to heavily answer the expectations of Asian and American markets with the new 2013 S class and the new 2014 C class.

The new 2013 S-class exterior styling reminds me of some retro fluid elegance that was poured into a modern form. This, combined with the sheer size and a yacht appearance, makes a very imponent appearance. The design is restrained, and as such it will look good even after 20 years.
Americans and the Asian market are going to love it.
I personally have only one problem; the command panel patched with a peace of plastic with the navigation/menu screen into a long "info" display. It looks as melded in a cheap Chinese factory.

I saw only renderings/drawings of the new 2014 C-class on a computer screen, so I reserve the final appreciation.
From what I saw, the new car is going to be considerably longer. The front doors are therefore very coupe like, elongated and low, the passenger dome is like a big medieval bow and the butt is short and crisp. The bonnet is very long, the impression comes from it being quite slowly falling into an impressive grill.
The C 2014 class is not a sedan anymore, it is a full limousine.
For European everyday life far too long; I would stuck in the traffic of the Italian cities on the first occasion.
For American roads it's going to be perfect, Asians love such long forms (3er got elongated for the Chinese market as you can remember).

[Antares]

Originally Posted by Sol01

never seen so much rubbish written in a single post.
whichever way you look at it F20 has been a success and certainly has a lot more road presence than both Golf and A3 put together.

BMW 1er has more road presence than BOTH Golf and A3 put together???
Incredible.
So all those hundreds of thousands of sold Golfs are hiding themselves in the woods, considering that Audi A3 alone reaches the numbers of the 1er.

January to May 2012; Germany; only sales to consumers (not companies)
VW Golf 23.383 (end of lifetime)
Mercedes B 13.506
VW Golf plus 11.856 (7 years old model)
Mercedes C class 9.999
Mercedes A class (end of lifetime) 9.586
BMW 1er NEW 7.663

January to May 2012; all sales; Germany
VW Golf 84.293
VW Passat 36.602
Mercedes C class 30.206
BMW 3er 27.923
Mercedes B class 23.540
BMW 1er NEW 22.884
VW Golf Plus 21.746
Audi A3 (end of lifetime; 9 years old model) 19.738

So this F20 success is selling as good as 9 years old prehistoric A3.
Private consumers bought almost twice as much Golf Plus (higher roof model that was thought as a NICHE model) that is also prehistoric, old and it's going to have a successor in a year time.

The majority of our family friends drive BMWs; new models should total some 20 cars.
I wanted a new compact. BMW has the best compact; technologically. However, I'm not going to bring that design in my garage.

[ovekvam]

In Scandinavia people prefer station wagons over sedans because they are practical. Rather few cars are sold as company cars here.

Maybe the women have more of a saying when it comes to cars here as well. They are often the ones who insist on going for a Touring.

[Antares]

The 3 series sales (Europe) give a good lesson: sedan is what we would buy (the emotions), a caravan (practicality) is what gets brought home.
Two completely different things.
A decisive factor also for SUV success.

In addition to the above let's consider the European car market fall and sharp economic climate. Companies (cca. 80% of sales for Audi, BMW) are trimming every expense.
One of the main factors of luxury is how much width interior space is there for driver and passenger. The worst thing in a car is when you have to keep your elbows glued to your body.

A3 Sportback (new) offers 1.453mm front width; Golf VII 1.469mm and BMW 3 series 1.451mm.
A3 Sportback has the same "day to day" use value of a BMW 3 series Caravan, is less long and far less expensive. The interior driver/co-driver space is on the same level.
What do you think is going to get brought home in an economic downturn? Emotions? How well you can speed through road bends on the occasional weekend trip?
By the way, I'm not talking about space on back seats, since I'm not a cab/taxi driver.

The drawing of the 2er Gran Coupe series looks very narrow. The 1 series has a sort of a cramped interior of a VW Polo (small city car). You must keep your elbows between your knees.
So what is this 2er Gran Coupe drawing? a prolonged sleek stylish Polo? The 2er Gran coupe needs to get ENLARGED and that ASAP.

[ovekvam]

If you think the car is too small, you should buy a bigger car. Remember there is a 5 series and 7 series for those who need huge cars. If the smallest car from BMW is also large, then they will miss out on a big market of people who want smallish cars, like me. I think the 1 series is already is a bit on the large side. I would like to see it narrower and lighter. I am 189 cm tall, and there is plenty of room for my elbows.

My wife is complaining about the car being too wide, making it more difficult to park than our previous cars. She would prefer a slightly smaller car next time.

If I had a choice between the Golf and a Polo, I would take the Polo. I also used to prefer the Compact version of the 3 series (E36 and E46) over the sedan/coupe.

[Wolf]

No! Keep the attached headlights-kidney grills to the F30s!

[Antares]

Originally Posted by ovekvam

If you think the car is too small, you should buy a bigger car. Remember there is a 5 series and 7 series for those who need huge cars.
If the smallest car from BMW is also large, then they will miss out on a big market of people who want smallish cars, like me. I think the 1 series is already is a bit on the large side. I would like to see it narrower and lighter. I am 189 cm tall, and there is plenty of room for my elbows.

My wife is complaining about the car being too wide, making it more difficult to park than our previous cars. She would prefer a slightly smaller car next time.

If I had a choice between the Golf and a Polo, I would take the Polo. I also used to prefer the Compact version of the 3 series (E36 and E46) over the sedan/coupe.

I have two cars.
One narrow (and shorter) that I use when I go in the old part of the Italian city nearby, when I go to the garden shop at peak hours (droves of women maneuvering in and out of parking lots) and for similar tasks when I don't care if the s cheap car gets bumped.
The majority of Italians and also French have similar "no-bump worry cars" for their chaotic cities.
I don't see any common sense in stuffing a superbly engineered BMW car into such a mess and in narrow parking lots.
Cheaper mass market cars are meant for such utility purposes.

The other "real" car is then the car of choice.
5 series was made purposefully to have plenty of space for the rear passengers.
Rear seats are so seldom used by me, that I don't need more than provisional rear seats; the rear doors and seats are hugely practical however: the coat, shopping bags, handbags, books and many other things get a ride on them and are at hand. Reason why I would not buy (again) a 2 door car; terribly impractical.

I don't want a long car; and I don't see any reason why would I drive around a bus behind my driving seat.
Long cars are a cliche of the long past, when the loving husband took his wife and all of his children with him for a drive and a picnic. Okay, in Saudi Arabia, where women are not permitted to drive and one man has many wives, the situation is mayhaps different (if the good women don't get into a fight with each other).

There is a huge world market, from Europe to Asia, where shorter Luxury cars are in high demand.
There is a huge difference between a premium car and a luxury car.
Audi is a premium car. Lexus is a premium car.
Both are derivatives of high-end mass market brands and technology.
Technology is going forward, some mass market brands managed to push themselves into High-end mass market brands (like VW).
Next logical step was to make premium derivatives of their technological know-how (Audi, Lexus,...)

BMW and Mercedes overslept the trend. Instead of making a clear boundary and pushing into Luxury they even wanted to compete with the mass-market brands (Chyrsler, Rover).
Maybach showed that Mercedes did not understand what Luxury means. Mercedes stands for high level car engineering; however a good engineer and technical knowledge has nothing to do with the world of aristocratic touch that distinguished a Rolls-Royce, Bentley and other brands.
If you once asked about the engine power of a Rolls you got the answer "sufficient".

Luxury is well defined; and is certainly not a cramped interior.

[ovekvam]

I think most BMW customers don't want a luxury car. What has traditionally been the trade mark from BMW, is that it gives a more involving driving experience than competing brands. That is why so many BMW enthusiasts are upset about BMW making a FWD car. What I (and most of my friends) want from a BMW, is very quick and accurate response from the pedals and steering. It should be practical like a family car, but feel like a sports car to drive. For the last 40 years, BMW has been the best brand to provide this type of car, but the competitors are catching up.

I think a further move towards more luxury would allow other brands to take the role of being the leading sporty family cars.

[Antares]

Well, BMW and Mercedes must be different from Premium brands (as Audi or Lexus). It's their only advantage (they don't have mass-market resources).
Their technology is one step above Premium brands, now it's necessary to show the difference also to the eye and touch.


Mercedes is already on the task.
They're going to divide the brand into two parts.
Luxury cars from C-class and above.
Premium FWD with A, B class, the SUV, CLA 4 door coupe and similar variants.

The new 2014 C-class is not only getting much longer, the interior will remind heavily on the new 2013 S-class interior. The new C-class is going to become a mini S-class; a perfect Mercedes brand-perception solution.

BMW 3 series has a history of its own and a similar idea would be terrible.
Some ten years ago there was an article in a German newspaper, where the BMW CEO at the time said, that BMW was never as long as Mercedes cars and is not going to follow in Mercedes wake.

Now look at the 3 series.
The E36 (year 1991) was 4433mm long, had a 2.700mm long wheelbase (BMW 1series today) and it's interior width was 1.425mm (from driver to co-driver doors).
The new 3 series is 4.624mm long, with a 2.810mm long wheelbase.
The interior width has gone from 1.425mm to 1.451mm; only +2,6cm!!

I understand that BMW could not ignore the competition and not make it's car longer. The new 3 series in now perfect also for rear passengers. No problem.
However, offering the same cramped narrow interior-width of 20 years ago??? No go.
Even a one step lower compact car like Audi A3 offers significantly more elbow room.

The idea of making a 2er Gran Coupe is great.
A revival of the E36 would be marvelous; a much better idea that the CLA that is only Premium (FWD) and is not looking that good in final serial version.
However, if the interior remains as wide as in a sub-compact mass-market car, even the BMW technical content is not going to be enough to make the car stand apart from Audi A3 sedan and Mercedes CLA.

[Majdnoon]

Originally Posted by richardg

I think what is most important is for BMW to keep the upcoming 2 and new 1 the same size forever. They need something small for small families or those who like small cars. Outside of a z4 you have no options with BMW. I know the industry as a whole has made larger cars but there is nothing wrong with a small car. Heck Nissan made the 370 smaller than the 350. If they make a 2 small like an e36-e46 sized car with a nice sleek roof line they can really hit it out of the park in my book. I don't know if that would sell enough to make money but I can hope. I like the size of the 1m but I do think it's a little tall.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. The 3, 5, 7, every single series from BMW has grown in size since their inception, and I'd hate to see the 1&2 suffer from this as well. They're SUPPOSED to be the entry level, light, tossable, sporty cars! The F30 3 series is the same kind of size as an E39 5 series. The cars are growing too much and need to stop!

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by formula M

Personally, I would pay a premium if the new M2 look similiar to the DNA in this M2 hommage...

Awesome!

[turbolag]

Originally Posted by cuiter23

Whats with BMW introducing all these new models? First the 4 series is enough now the 2 series? All these numbers and GT are starting to confuse me. I strongly Mercedes approach, dont just suddenly release completely new model day after day. Build on the 1 series and call it something related to the 1 series i.e. 1 series GT or something, NOT a 2 series... I have a feeling by the end of this decade, BMW will have created AT LEAST up to 10 series.

This totally defeats the whole purpose of the tradition and history that these numbers mean. The 3 series, 5 series, and 7 series have established an extremely successful name throughout history. Now BMW is just bringing out the 2 and 4 series out of nowhere.

1/3/5/7 = sedan/wagon/GT
2/4/6 = coupe/grancoupe

2series is US 1 series.
4series is 3 series coupe/convertible.

[formula M]

Dude, give it up... SCOTT26 is blinded by his own marketing, doesn't realize that people want smaller cars... BMW thinks the 7, or 6 series is relevant... while the whole world is passing them by.