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      10-14-2014, 07:42 PM   #1
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When lightning strikes, thunder will follow: impact of the M2 on the M235i and M3/M4

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Only few info has emerged about the M2, but we all do know that "Pyrat2" has the right potential - if tweaked the right way - to become a serious contender for capturing the (pirate) flag of the segment of compact sports cars.

When lightning strikes (in a spectacular fashion), thunder will follow. The ///M division has full control over setting the timer somewhere between a split-second *kaboom* and a distant rumble.

We can perfectly imagine that the competition is crossing its fingers for the latter and steadfastly continues working on 'answers' to the coming of the M2. Expect some interesting releases in 2015.

But what about the risk of 'friendly fire' casualties ? Will also the M235i and M3/M4 be struck by the M2 lightning/thunder (or its storm) ? Or will this risk cause the ///M Division to "muzzle" the M2 to some extent (think of the 'distant rumble' metaphor), allowing it to only partially live up to the high expectations (maybe leaving some room for possible later (limited?) editions, think GTS or CSL) ?

That question is raised in the following article published this week:
(note: maybe "kill" should be read as "hurt" ).

--------------------------------------------
Will the BMW M2 kill the M235i and the M4?
By Gabriel Bridger | October 13, 2014
http://www.bimmerfile.com/2014/10/13...kill-m235i-m4/
German magazine AutoBild is out this week with some fresh M2 speculation. 374 hp and 400 ft lbs or torque. Further they believe pricing should be right around 56k Euro for the would-be M4 killer. With figures like that, it’s not hard to question who wouldn’t stretch from the M235i to the M2. Further it’s not that hard to see the M2 putting a dent in M4 sales. Obviously we’re not suggesting BMW will kill either car but it’s easy to see how the M2 could nail the sweet spot in price vs performance versus the M235i or M4.
Lets lay out the argument why the M2 may just be the perfect M car for the next decade.

Expected Pricing.
BMW NA has a hard act to follow with the 1M — a car which had an MSRP of $46,135 — has had a massive value increase over the past three years. Currently, prices for low mileage cars are hovering between 60k and 70k (and some over). With only 740 cars imported to the US, you can expect a healthy market for years to come. The puts BMW NA in an interesting position. The M4 is priced at $64,200 on one side, and the M235i is at $43,100 on the other.
Given this, and a much healthier options list than with the 1M, we’d expect a base price of over $50,000 with options pushing potential prices over $60k. In other words the M2 could be anywhere from $11k to $13k cheaper than the M4 and only $8k to $11k more pricey than the M235i.

Engine and Performance.
Under the M2′s hood, we’ll find the N55B30T0 inline six. An iteration of the N55, the N55B30T0 will be available as standard with a six-speed manual transmission, which is likely a variation of that found in the M3/M4 — which itself is a variation of the 1M unit. The biggest addition over the 1M will be an optional automatic transmission. Which automatic? We expect M to utilize the 7-speed DCT from the M3/M4 in the M2 to further distance it from the M235i and properly position it against its competition.
Based on what we’re hearing from sources and good old-fashioned conjecture, we’re expecting the N55B30T0 to have an output around 360 hp in the US. How did we get that figure? For one, we’ve heard whispers of it for a year now and with AutoBild claiming 374 hp or Europe, it lines up well. Secondly, it’s the power-to-weight-ratio that will be key in the M2. Despite the fact that the 2-Series is heavier than the 1-Series that came before it, we expect the M2 to be similar in weight to the 1M (3,296 lbs) if not less thanks to use of carbon fiber. Adding 25-35 hp and increased torque at that weight, the M2 should rocket to 0-60 faster than the 1M with the DCT. In fact, it ought to slot-in just under the M3 and M4 in regard to straight-line performance. Expect 0-60 times of just above 4 seconds with the DCT.
Now keep in mind that $11k-$13k price difference with the M4 and the M2 starts to look like a helluva a bargain. On the other end these figures and the performance that comes with it clearly murders the M235i.

Technology and Light Weight Materials.
This successor to the 1M will follow many of the same paths, with some notable exceptions. While the standard 2-Series is heavier than the 1M, BMW M is working to make the M2 not just lighter than the 135i but also lighter than the 1M. Price-point will surely dictate less of the costly weight-savings measures we see in the M3/M4, but we expect several of the engineering philosophies to carry over on the M2. Notably a CFRP roof could be part of the mix along with other composite components. We also expect some of the M4′s lightweight suspension design philosophy (if not the exact parts) to carry over into the M2.
A car with more power and less weight than the M235i? That’s what we expect. Likewise if the 1M is any indication, we should see the shorter wheelbase and light weight combined with the M4′s suspension and brakes produce a car that begs to be driven hard. Once again the math here adds up to something that sounds more compelling to this BMW enthusiast than either the M235i or M4.

Timing.
Based on sources, the BMW M2 will begin production in November of 2015 with deliveries to start in December throughout western Europe and the UK. US production will begin in March of 2016 with deliveries in late April. Unlike the 1M, production will not be limited in any way other than production dates.
If BMW NA can keep pricing in check as they did with the 1M, could BMW have a massive M car hit on its hands? The figures above aren’t official so there still some time to be disappointed with less output and higher weight. But given what BMW was able to achieve with both the 1M an the M4, it’s hard to imagine the M2 won’t be anything less than spectacular.
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      10-14-2014, 07:55 PM   #2
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I was hoping for 50K starting price (USD). If they really don't want to hurt M4 sales, then they'll price it closer to the M4 unfortunately: because if they're close to the same price than the M4 won't be affected.
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      10-14-2014, 08:24 PM   #3
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Whats with all the M4 killer posts? Do you think BMW would spend the great effort they put in the F8X, only to release a cheaper model with comparable performance within a year? The M3/4 is THE heritage of the M brand and BMW will protect it with an evident advantage in performance (like Porsche does with the Cayman and 911).

IMO this BMW vs BMW debate is pointless. The two models appeal to two different needs. The M2 is the smaller (in size) of the two, with less power, less tech/exotic materials, but more outright fun and a more casual attitude and cheaper. No doubt it'll be an amazing model but it'll never dethrone the M3/4

What I'm more interested in is how the M2 performs against its competitors especially the Cayman S.

Looking forward to my new toy.
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      10-14-2014, 09:06 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
What I'm more interested in is how the M2 performs against its competitors especially the Cayman S.
Next-Gen Porsche Boxster And Cayman Will Get A 395-Horsepower, 4-Cylinder Engine
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-new...-ar162859.html
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      10-14-2014, 11:14 PM   #5
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I'll steal a line from Apple on this one: It's better to cannibalize your own products than to let someone else come in and take customers.

The M2 could be the intro into the BMW halo for many people (myself included).
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      10-15-2014, 07:17 AM   #6
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I think the same question should also be asked of the 1M, particularly in US.
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      10-15-2014, 07:49 AM   #7
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I speculate that the ///M2 will be lighter than the M4, but the M4 will still be the faster car for the track, stock for stock. The M4 will have the horsepower and torque and advantage. Same reason why a 911 Carrera 2S is faster on the track than a Cayman S, yet the Cayman is lighter. The ///M2 however, will be the better dance partner on the track. The latest details are now calling for a de-tuned version of the S55 engine in the M2 and not a beefed up version of the N55 as was earlier thought and as is currently in the M235i Racing Car. This means tunability for the M2 in the future. But don't forget about the future of the M4 either. A Competition Package (ZCP) will be available for the M3/M4 in the future and will most undoubtedly come with a bump in horsepower. This will put the M4 even further ahead in performance than M2. The M2 may get ZCP in far off future too, but that is almost too far ahead to think about right now. Given the cheaper base price of the M2, lighter weight, and more nimble handling, if one were looking for the perfect BMW weekend club racing car, the M2 will be it.
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      10-15-2014, 09:04 AM   #8
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      10-15-2014, 10:02 AM   #9
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Everything seems to be a bit of toss up in terms of info. The leaked production data said N55 auto and manual. Car mag article says S55 but who knows how old their info is.
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      10-15-2014, 10:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
This means tunability for the M2 in the future. But don't forget about the future of the M4 either. A Competition Package (ZCP) will be available for the M3/M4 in the future and will most undoubtedly come with a bump in horsepower. This will put the M4 even further ahead in performance than M2. The M2 may get ZCP in far off future too, but that is almost too far ahead to think about right now.
Indeed. Let's puzzle some info bits and pieces together in an attempt to look a bit through the smoke.

A source pointed out that BMW has (currently) no plans for a future LCI (Life Cycle Impulse = update/upgrade) of the M3/M4: these will continue until end of production of the corresponding F3X body style. Though plans for an M4 GTS exist apparently (http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...99&postcount=1).

In November 2013 Scott26 reported the following about slotting the M2 in Winter 2015-2016 compared to the release of the M235i and M3/M4:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
I have seen some early preliminary sketches although not respondent of what the car will look like but the creativity behind the visual aspects is underway.
Engineering has already commenced.
But I must repeat there will be an M2 but it is not coming tomorrow.
For now this is the M235i's moment. The gap in both cars between will allow appetites to be whet and new ideas to be conceived and thoroughly evaluated.
The gap will also allow the new M3 and M4 breathing space.
And last January he commented:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The timescale works absolutely in favour with the new BMW M3 and BMW M4 Coupe because a gap of two years allows establishment and progress. By this time there will be the Competition Package for the M3 and M4 and there will also be progress for the two cars in an additional specification.
Then you have to think about the next M5 and its leap in technology , lightweight and power increase to just over 600 PS. Granted the M5 won't be on the market at this point but the arrival will be just over twelve months from the G30.
This is where the gap opens for the M2 and there will be ample room for co-existence.
The interesting thing that really shows progress, is that on a presentation briefing between Toyota and BMW on the Z4 Replacement which is the Z3 is the ability to integrate super sports car specifications into that car by extensive use of Carbon Fibre. The Z3 will be the first car , along with its Toyota twin to use a Carbon tub in its price range for a premium manufacturer even undercutting the Alfa Romeo 4C. The bonnet lid and bootlid will also be CFRP and as will areas of the suspension.
It leads to possibly further advances of CFRP on the M2 as the time frame allows for further and extensive application.
The four cylinder[*] resonates with the approach to lightweight application over numbers.
The new BMW M3 and M4 begin the Carbon revolution at M. It's not all about the numbers its about precision through weight reduction.
To understand the significance. Look at that Carbon bodied Maybach at around 1 million dollars. Granted the 7er will not be extensive in application but with all the key panels approached to be fabricated from CFRP it will be far , far less than that Maybach , not even a fraction of the cost. That is how important this is.
Later this year as BMW begin the roll out to the first BMW to adopt a significant lightweight approach their will be media Technology days where you will understand the full outline of how innovative and beneficial this will be for BMW.
Start to get excited.
[*] = before 2014, a 4-cyl was considered for powering the M2; plans seem to have changed around last Winter: exit the 4-cyl plan and enter a 6-cyl engine (N55B30T0, which is also rumored to sport the forthcoming X4 M40i) as the ///M Division's favorite weapon of choice for powering the M2. As regards gearbox/transmission, the same source also confirmed that the M2 will be offered as manual and automatic (http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...99&postcount=1).
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      10-15-2014, 10:28 AM   #11
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I just think it's funny how so many articles talk about getting new customers by hitting a new price point gap. Really the way I see it is with each new redesigned model they get larger and more expensive. They are just refilling an old price point they once filled with a different car.

For instance if the new M2 costs close to $50k-$52k starting price that is slightly higher than the starting price of an M3 from 2006. Although you are getting more performance per dollar it is still that old price point. Even with inflation factored in the estimated M2 pricing is only slightly lower than an 06 M3.

I do completely agree with the performance spec expectations though. I saw all these people popping up saying unrealistic performance numbers that I just couldn't see BMW doing that. I expected it to fall in line with all the other M cars.
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      10-15-2014, 11:05 AM   #12
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I highly doubt you're going to see a curb weight remotely close to the 1M. The standard M235i weighs a whopping 3500lbs here in the states. There is no way they're going to be able to knock off 200lbs with CFRP roof and light weight suspension.
Look at my sig. I've cut 180lbs off my 330 using CF roof, hood and trunk, lighter wheels, exhaust, suspension pieces, brakes and seats. BMW has to stick with OEM quality parts and materials, so I believe the maximum weight reduction will be around 100lbs max. The majority of that weight reduction will not come from the roof either. I changed out my steel roof including the sunroof for a CF piece and it only saved 45lbs. My 330 roof is a bit larger than a 2-series roof, so the weight savings will be less.
I also highly doubt BMW will put on extremely light weight wheels. This is a huge performance part and a major weight savings. I cut 44lbs. just by going to my Advan RS wheels (they are 18", but 0.5" wider in the front ad 1" wider in the rear, but still much lighter than stock).

I'm very interested in this car. I feel the M3/4 has gotten too soft to appease the masses and the M2 will bring back the driving passion. I just hope that they go as hard core as the enthusiasts would like them too. BMW is already pulling the Porsche card by reducing the HP to "protect" it's big brother.
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      10-15-2014, 01:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
I highly doubt you're going to see a curb weight remotely close to the 1M. The standard M235i weighs a whopping 3500lbs here in the states. There is no way they're going to be able to knock off 200lbs with CFRP roof and light weight suspension.
Look at my sig. I've cut 180lbs off my 330 using CF roof, hood and trunk, lighter wheels, exhaust, suspension pieces, brakes and seats. BMW has to stick with OEM quality parts and materials, so I believe the maximum weight reduction will be around 100lbs max. The majority of that weight reduction will not come from the roof either. I changed out my steel roof including the sunroof for a CF piece and it only saved 45lbs. My 330 roof is a bit larger than a 2-series roof, so the weight savings will be less.
I also highly doubt BMW will put on extremely light weight wheels. This is a huge performance part and a major weight savings. I cut 44lbs. just by going to my Advan RS wheels (they are 18", but 0.5" wider in the front ad 1" wider in the rear, but still much lighter than stock).

I'm very interested in this car. I feel the M3/4 has gotten too soft to appease the masses and the M2 will bring back the driving passion. I just hope that they go as hard core as the enthusiasts would like them too. BMW is already pulling the Porsche card by reducing the HP to "protect" it's big brother.
The ironic thing is that the M3/4 is far from soft IMHO. While yes, it might be bigger than I want for a "weekend" car, but too small to be a pure DD (I have 2 big dogs), it's far from soft. The way the car ride, the grip, the brakes. It's all an improvement.

Personally, I don't care that they'll reduce the power compared to an M3/4. Just make it fun, period. I hope that they'll make it 100 lbs lighter than the M235i (I could live with that). At the end of the day, everyone saying that it needs xxx hp might not get the point of this car.

Look at the E36 M3 (US Spec). It makes 240 hp. But it's such a fun car to drive. I'll take the 370hp, and 3400 lbs, as long as it has a hell of a personality. Big girls need lovin too
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      10-15-2014, 02:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
The M3/4 is THE heritage of the M brand and BMW will protect it with an evident advantage in performance (like Porsche does with the Cayman and 911).
I disagree with this line of reasoning. BMW threw all that "heritage" out the window when they changed the name. M4 is totally new, has no heritage and is basically a clean slate.

I think the M engineers are working at cross-purposes from what the BMW engineering team is working toward with the 3 and 4 series in general. The cars are being designed for broader mass appeal and are growing bigger and softer, which is somewhat antithetical to what the M team does.

They can only work with the platform. I think they should make the M2 as good as it possibly can be. If it's faster than the M4, then make it the same price. I have the budget for an M4, but I don't want the size. But I won't buy a car if it is deliberately hamstrung so as not to step on the toes of the "halo car."

My next car will most likely be a Cayman GTS or an M2 (the wait is killing me...) I don't really see anything else out there which interests me as much as those two cars. I could buy a Cayman now... If I wait for the M2, and the Cayman switches to a 4-banger, I won't want it. If the M2 disappoints, I will wish I bought a Cayman... Ahh, first world problems I guess.
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      10-15-2014, 03:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdpauly
Quote:
Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
The M3/4 is THE heritage of the M brand and BMW will protect it with an evident advantage in performance (like Porsche does with the Cayman and 911).
I disagree with this line of reasoning. BMW threw all that "heritage" out the window when they changed the name. M4 is totally new, has no heritage and is basically a clean slate.

I think the M engineers are working at cross-purposes from what the BMW engineering team is working toward with the 3 and 4 series in general. The cars are being designed for broader mass appeal and are growing bigger and softer, which is somewhat antithetical to what the M team does.

They can only work with the platform. I think they should make the M2 as good as it possibly can be. If it's faster than the M4, then make it the same price. I have the budget for an M4, but I don't want the size. But I won't buy a car if it is deliberately hamstrung so as not to step on the toes of the "halo car."

My next car will most likely be a Cayman GTS or an M2 (the wait is killing me...) I don't really see anything else out there which interests me as much as those two cars. I could buy a Cayman now... If I wait for the M2, and the Cayman switches to a 4-banger, I won't want it. If the M2 disappoints, I will wish I bought a Cayman... Ahh, first world problems I guess.
Hmm maybe not. In due time we'll see the result. Whatever the outcome be, I won't be disappointed. As I'll own both the M2 and M4.

Damn you BMW
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      10-15-2014, 04:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by RingMeister01 View Post
Whats with all the M4 killer posts? Do you think BMW would spend the great effort they put in the F8X, only to release a cheaper model with comparable performance within a year?
I think what you're leaving off of the table is that the "great effort" you refer to can easily be adopted to the M2 platform.

This was evidenced by the 1M (ZCP suspension and brakes) and afforded BMW the opportunity to expedite the development process, saving time and money - both wins for BMW.

I don't think it'll be a year, so much as two, but I wouldn't be surprised if the new M3/M4 have a hard time dropping the M2 much like the E90 / E92 did with the 1M.

The M2, by virtue of being cheaper, will be able to benefit from less tech and options. This enables BMW to keep the price competitive compared to the M3/M4, while concurrently providing solid performance by the ''great efforts'' learned through the M3/M4's developments.

It's really a win/win, all they have to do is trickle down their research efforts and profit.

I don't even think the M2 will need much more than the estimated 375hp to make the M3/M4 sweat, but hey - enjoy your individual M4.
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      10-15-2014, 05:25 PM   #17
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I think what you're leaving off of the table is that the "great effort" you refer to can easily be adopted to the M2 platform.

This was evidenced by the 1M (ZCP suspension and brakes) and afforded BMW the opportunity to expedite the development process, saving time and money - both wins for BMW.

I don't think it'll be a year, so much as two, but I wouldn't be surprised if the new M3/M4 have a hard time dropping the M2 much like the E90 / E92 did with the 1M.

The M2, by virtue of being cheaper, will be able to benefit from less tech and options. This enables BMW to keep the price competitive compared to the M3/M4, while concurrently providing solid performance by the ''great efforts'' learned through the M3/M4's developments.

It's really a win/win, all they have to do is trickle down their research efforts and profit.

I don't even think the M2 will need much more than the estimated 375hp to make the M3/M4 sweat, but hey - enjoy your individual M4.
But hey - Im buying both

These different M's fulfill 2 purposes for me and many others here. The M4 is (as was mentioned before) the Bond car. The model that represents the latest technology (not hand me downs as you implied on the 1M) offered by the M division. The car to take on that 4am morning drive. The romantic model of the two. The M2 is the smaller, lighter more agile car. Buying a low optioned affordable performance BMW to drive the piss out of on track. To take it to Tail of the Dragon, to drive Laguna Seca, Nurburgring.. What you're missing from my argument (I should have been more direct) is, it'll be a FANTASTIC car, BUT you'll never be able to say "HA those guys that bought the over priced M4 are so dumb and I'm so much smarter for waiting on this M2", based on performance figures alone. BMW will leave something out.

M2 won't kill the M4/3 It'll just introduce more buyers to the BMW brand and give people access to an M car that may have not been able to before.

Cheers
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      10-15-2014, 06:50 PM   #18
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But hey - Im buying both

These different M's fulfill 2 purposes for me and many others here. The M4 is (as was mentioned before) the Bond car. The model that represents the latest technology (not hand me downs as you implied on the 1M) offered by the M division. The car to take on that 4am morning drive. The romantic model of the two. The M2 is the smaller, lighter more agile car. Buying a low optioned affordable performance BMW to drive the piss out of on track. To take it to Tail of the Dragon, to drive Laguna Seca, Nurburgring.. What you're missing from my argument (I should have been more direct) is, it'll be a FANTASTIC car, BUT you'll never be able to say "HA those guys that bought the over priced M4 are so dumb and I'm so much smarter for waiting on this M2", based on performance figures alone. BMW will leave something out.

M2 won't kill the M4/3 It'll just introduce more buyers to the BMW brand and give people access to an M car that may have not been able to before.

Cheers
Makes the case for the M2 NOT having:

1. Adaptive Suspension
2. DCT

My guess is not even optional for those.
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      10-16-2014, 05:01 AM   #19
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Makes the case for the M2 NOT having:

1. Adaptive Suspension
2. DCT

My guess is not even optional for those.
The M2 will be the least expensive M, we know this. It'll primarily be a buyers introduction to an M car (obviously not limited to, as myself) so its got to be good enough that this buyer will progress to the M4, M6 and so on. DCT IMO, is a very big part of the M experience and not offering an alternative to 6MT will limit the amount of buyers on a volume car. The 1M was a limited edition and it' is very different to the M2.

DCT will most likely be replaced with the 8ZF (this is my biggest uncertainty) but I think it'll have to have the adaptive suspension. There won't be a ceramic brake option and there won't be a carbon roof.

Edit: More thought on DCT. The unit in the M4 is that of the M5. It certainly weighs more than the E92 unit and I don't think this extra weight would come welcome in the M2. Also to keep cost down, it makes sense to keep the 8ZF unit for simplicity and packaging. The 6MT from the 1M shouldn't be an issue at all.
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      10-16-2014, 06:39 AM   #20
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Makes the case for the M2 NOT having:

1. Adaptive Suspension
2. DCT

My guess is not even optional for those.
I have a very hard time believing that it won't at least have adaptive as an option. Every BMW can be had with it.

I can also understand if they don't do DCT, but I'd think at least AT would be available as to not narrow the market so much. This isn't a limited car like the 1M after all.

Regardless, it doesn't affect me as I'd go MT and passive anyway
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      10-16-2014, 07:03 AM   #21
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I have a very hard time believing that it won't at least have adaptive as an option. Every BMW can be had with it.

I can also understand if they don't do DCT, but I'd think at least AT would be available as to not narrow the market so much. This isn't a limited car like the 1M after all.

Regardless, it doesn't affect me as I'd go MT and passive anyway
I'm just going off some of these hints from recent M Division interviews. If they offer the same options as you get on the M3/M4, why would people go for an M3/M4 when they can get a fully optioned M2 for probably mid $60kish (assuming it starts in the low 50s)? Especially if its barely any slower, but lighter and handles just as good?

Something has to be left to the upper M cars. Whether that's DCT, adaptive suspension, carbon fiber, etc... is anyone's guess right now.
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      10-16-2014, 07:22 AM   #22
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They have to be careful to not persuade buyers out of an M2 and into rivals such as Audi and Mercedes.

M2 in manual form is a no-no for me. And no EDC the same.

Could force buyers into the used market where there is no profit for BMW either.
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