[Diver]

Whenever the topic of 6MT vs automatic of any kind comes up it seems like the world is made up of at least 50% MT drivers. Automotive journalists are fond of making statements like it is a waste to get some car or other with an automatic transmission.

The reality at BMW is the take rate for 6MT is in the low single digits and automotive journalists drive beat up Accords and Camrys when they are not working. I bet they are not driving those manual transmission test cars from the suburbs to a downtown office in rush hour traffic every weekday.

[SmallTownBoy]

Originally Posted by nachob

If I had to go automatic for some handicap, I would be very happy with it. But as long as my left leg works fine, I enjoy the MT.

Does "old and grouchy" qualify as a handicap?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by SmallTownBoy

Does "old and grouchy" qualify as a handicap?

Nope! I'm 60!

[scottomfg]

Always so funny for me to read these people saying the 8-speed is so amazing and fun . . . I settled for one (with paddles) for my wife's car because I had to, and sure, it's pretty good relative to other slushboxes. But that's like being the world's tallest midget. It doesn't deliver anywhere near the driving experience, for me, that a manual does. As in, not even close.

The driving experience is so so so different with auto vs manual, in my mind there is no point in even comparing them. If you like auto, that's awesome, congrats--no reason to compare it to a manual. Some people like to eat good food at restaurants, and others prefer to make the good food themselves--good food is being eaten either way. But you can't really compare cooking your own food and someone cooking it for you.

[tccox]

Glad to see this has turned into another my trans is better than your trans thread. Can never have enough of those.

[Vervain]

Originally Posted by Diver

Whenever the topic of 6MT vs automatic of any kind comes up it seems like the world is made up of at least 50% MT drivers. Automotive journalists are fond of making statements like it is a waste to get some car or other with an automatic transmission.

The reality at BMW is the take rate for 6MT is in the low single digits and automotive journalists drive beat up Accords and Camrys when they are not working. I bet they are not driving those manual transmission test cars from the suburbs to a downtown office in rush hour traffic every weekday.

[Diver]

Originally Posted by Anodite10

Sory, I don't know what that means.

[mjposner]

The issue is different compared to say 20 or even 10 years ago. Traditionally manual cars were faster. Now with dual clutch trannys and the amazing ZF 8 speed, the automatics have overtaken the manual as the performance drivers preferred method of driving. faster, better control (two hands on wheel at all times), better launches etc. Sure rowing is fun (I own to manuals), but the issue has shifted.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by mjposner

The issue is different compared to say 20 or even 10 years ago. Traditionally manual cars were faster. Now with dual clutch trannys and the amazing ZF 8 speed, the automatics have overtaken the manual as the performance drivers preferred method of driving. faster, better control (two hands on wheel at all times), better launches etc. Sure rowing is fun (I own to manuals), but the issue has shifted.

The benefits have been re-arranged but the core issue remains the same - what does each of us enjoy the most for whatever reasons we prioritize.

[Vervain]

Originally Posted by Diver

Sory, I don't know what that means.

It means that I totally agree

[Diver]

Originally Posted by mjposner

The issue is different compared to say 20 or even 10 years ago. Traditionally manual cars were faster. Now with dual clutch trannys and the amazing ZF 8 speed, the automatics have overtaken the manual as the performance drivers preferred method of driving. faster, better control (two hands on wheel at all times), better launches etc. Sure rowing is fun (I own to manuals), but the issue has shifted.

All of the above and usually lower fuel consumption on government tests which is becoming increasingly important. I have owned many manuals including a '60's era BMW. Back then 4 speeds was all you got. Also I had a C4 Vette with a clutch so stiff I had to buy rubber soled shoes to drive it in traffic, plus a couple of RX7's.

In fact, it is probably fuel consumption more than anything else that has fueled the development of 7, 8 and 9 speed automatics. Computer technology has given us faster shifts and launch control at a lower cost than analog hydraulic controls.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Diver

All of the above and usually lower fuel consumption on government tests which is becoming increasingly important.

23/36 automatic v 22/34 stick (per BMW site for 228i) is not, for me, a deciding factor. Those differences get lost in driving style. Show me a 5mpg difference and I start to pay more attention.

[G-Mann]

The auto is a very nice, crisp, quick and precise but if you really prefer the manual experience then get the manual and don't look back.

You have a flex work schedule and you only drive 8k miles a year has manual transmission written all over it IMO.

I got my laundry list of reasons why a auto makes sense for me and why I would get an auto again but if I did not have that laundry list.....

[mjposner]

I will also add that the addition of paddle shifting is also a factor, as it allows a driver to feel more involved in driving. Unless you have driven a good dct you do not have grounds to compare, and the 8 speed is pretty close. Also, on most modern cars the automatic is a better match for the cars power. With a take up rate south of 10%, why waste money on fine tuning, and in Germany where they do not like manuals, I am sure it is given even more short shrift as they know that most manuals go to Americans (which I am sure drives them crazy given their idea that we are all fat with 128 oz. big gulp cups in one hand a fast food in the other, how do we even shift??).

[mike@tpc]

Originally Posted by mjposner

in Germany where they do not like manuals,.

I don't know where you get that from. In my time all across Europe, it seems like 90% of all cars on the road are manuals.

[mjposner]

From BMW. While it is true that at the low end the cars are manuals, at the high end the buyers want auto boxes. For example, the M5 only had smg until the US buyers demanded a manual.

"Frolich also confirmed that for the foreseeable future, the manual transmission is safe at BMW, both in M Division cars and regular non-performance models. “Of course, with a manual you are slower, but it is more emotional; it now says ‘I am a serious driver, I am a connoisseur’. So, we will continue [to offer a manual] even if only ten per cent of customers want it. That is why we offer a manual M5 sedan in North America. It is stupid – the development costs are huge – but we will keep doing it as long as the customer wants it.”

another quote from BMW:

BMW says manual transmissions are on the way out, insisting that fuel efficiency and performance benefits are no longer an advantage for the do-it-yourself system.

Speaking with CarAdvice at the launch of the 2014 BMW X5 in Vancouver last week, the company’s product line director, Peter Wolf, hinted that BMW doesn’t view manual transmissions as a big part of its future.

“It is no longer a question of sportiness as the automatic and dual-clutch gearboxes are quicker now [than manual transmissions],” Wolf said.

“They are also more efficient, which is a big advantage too. I don’t think we will see a manual gearbox much more in the future.”

"In Europe, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi are the top three manufacturers with the highest uptake of automatic transmission vehicles respectively, with Germany leading Europe in the move towards self-shifting vehicles."

"The BMW M5 is only available with a manual transmission in North America where, surprisingly, market demand has led BMW to put a six-speed gearbox in its 5 Series performance flagship as a no-cost option to the seven-speed dual-clutch transmission."

[Diver]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

23/36 automatic v 22/34 stick (per BMW site for 228i) is not, for me, a deciding factor. Those differences get lost in driving style. Show me a 5mpg difference and I start to pay more attention.

I agree that at the consumer level it is not a deciding factor but for the manufacturer who is working hard to exceed regulatory limits it is. These incremental improvements actually have a cash value as they can be sold to another manufacturer that is not meeting their requirements. So money goes to develop new automatics and BMW does not charge extra for the auto in the US.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Diver

I agree that at the consumer level it is not a deciding factor but for the manufacturer who is working hard to exceed regulatory limits it is. These incremental improvements actually have a cash value as they can be sold to another manufacturer that is not meeting their requirements. So money goes to develop new automatics and BMW does not charge extra for the auto in the US.

You are absolutely correct. In the 25 years I spent at a US auto company, I watched engineers just about sell their firstborn to achieve a tenth of an mpg improvement, as CAFE penalties loom large on the horizon, and on each of their annual personnel appraisals. This is a major reason we no longer have spare tires. I remember early internal research on weight saving via RFT about ten years ago. And, as you noted, CAFE credits may be exchanged between companies.

The pricing for the automatic is in the feature value build up for the base car. Over history (although I don't know ZF recent internal financials), the variable piece cost of a manual EXCEEDED that of an automatic, just another example of where cost and price have little to no relationship. Selling automatics over base manuals has been one of the industry's great economics boons for decades. Cost drops and revenue increases. By pricing the car with an automatic, BMW is covering the likely higher variable piece cost of the manual for those who take the "no credit" option".

I don't doubt that sticks are on the way out. Good reason to buy one now and take great care of it. Those of us with this preference are in the minority. According to a database I can access, future industry intention for manual is 6%, and for BMW, 8%, so the inevitable will become apparent.

[gulshan]

AT vs MT is subjective in the new world of 8 speed ZF, DCT etc..
Like playing coin operated real pin ball vs playing pin ball on the computer. The lights and sound are as real as it gets and you can even bump on the sides on the computer. AT fun factor may wear off and you will start hankering for MT. Never other way round unless you get some pain/injury in your left leg or right hand...in the USA

[GMe90]

The novelty of the auto will wear off quickly and you will miss the MT if you are a true manual die hard.

[Cavpilot2k]

I too am a diehard manual fan, but the M235 I test drove with the 8AT was incredibly impressive!. Best AT I've ever driven, and undeniably faster on the shift than my 25 years of manual rowing experience can pull off.

That said, I envision a day when I will no longer be able to get the cars I want in MT, so I am going to keep getting them while I still can. I drive in stop-and-go commute every day in the Boston area and I still don't mind MT. To me that's just driving. I feel more engaged. However, I am also a helicopter pilot, so having both hands and both feet on the controls is second nature to me and not fatiguing in the least.

So, 6MT for me, but that 8AT is so good I would never give anyone a hard time for choosing it if it felt right to them.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by mjposner

From BMW. While it is true that at the low end the cars are manuals, at the high end the buyers want auto boxes. For example, the M5 only had smg until the US buyers demanded a manual.

"Frolich also confirmed that for the foreseeable future, the manual transmission is safe at BMW, both in M Division cars and regular non-performance models. “Of course, with a manual you are slower, but it is more emotional; it now says ‘I am a serious driver, I am a connoisseur’. So, we will continue [to offer a manual] even if only ten per cent of customers want it. That is why we offer a manual M5 sedan in North America. It is stupid – the development costs are huge – but we will keep doing it as long as the customer wants it.”

another quote from BMW:

BMW says manual transmissions are on the way out, insisting that fuel efficiency and performance benefits are no longer an advantage for the do-it-yourself system.

Speaking with CarAdvice at the launch of the 2014 BMW X5 in Vancouver last week, the company’s product line director, Peter Wolf, hinted that BMW doesn’t view manual transmissions as a big part of its future.

“It is no longer a question of sportiness as the automatic and dual-clutch gearboxes are quicker now [than manual transmissions],” Wolf said.

“They are also more efficient, which is a big advantage too. I don’t think we will see a manual gearbox much more in the future.”

"In Europe, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi are the top three manufacturers with the highest uptake of automatic transmission vehicles respectively, with Germany leading Europe in the move towards self-shifting vehicles."

"The BMW M5 is only available with a manual transmission in North America where, surprisingly, market demand has led BMW to put a six-speed gearbox in its 5 Series performance flagship as a no-cost option to the seven-speed dual-clutch transmission."

But as you said in your own words: "high end buyers" increasingly want autos. The M5 market is tiny. In Germany, you have to be able to drive a manual to get your full driver's license - if you only take the test in an automatic, you are only allowed to drive autos.
Also, in all of my trips to Europe, you have to pay an upcharge to get an automatic rental, otherwise you get a manual (opposite of the 'States where you can't even get manual rentals).
Bottom line: Europe is still VASTLY more manual-centric than the small % of manual drivers in the US. Including in Germany, where M5s are as rare as they are here, and everyone can at least drive a manual, whether they choose to or not (and far more do over there than here).
I'm not arguing the auto vs. manual debate, just making sure we have our facts straight about who drives more manuals (Europeans).
Don't believe me? go there for yourself.