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2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum BMW 2 Series (F22) Forum BMW 2 Series Coupe and Cabriolet (F22/F23) General Forum Autocar compares M235i vs. M4 and Alpina B4... which is the real modern day M3 coupe?

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      08-30-2014, 08:47 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imserious View Post
This article demonstrates how BMW's move toward turbos allows tuners to easily match performance of higher priced models.

The M2 with a tune will be the car to beat.
True. An M2 with a tune will likely out gun a stock M4.
But then, an M4 can be tuned too.

Throw enough money at most cars and they can match or better many higher priced cars that have already done the work for you and give you a warranty to go along with that higher level of performance.

Tune the M2 and it'll be faster. Tune the M4 and then that tuned M2 will need more tuning and more parts, like a larger turbo, better flowing exhaust, and then there's the suspension........

Then there's the whole other thing that gets missed, the M4 is a BMW.
With that, BMW doesn't just set out to make a fast, great handling sport coupe. It sets out to make a fast, great handling sport coupe along with the luxury level of the base model.
That interior costs money. The whole cost doesn't just go into the go fast bits. Then there is the sweet looking body and that costs more too.

Sure, you can get an M235i to go as fast as the M4 if you throw money at it.
You can probably get it to handle as well and even better if you throw more money at it. You can make it look nicer inside and outside if you throw more money at it. In the end you have a quite expensive customized car, nothing wrong with that for those who want something personal and unique.
Or, you can get an M4 that already has those things done for you, and it will have a very nice warranty along with really good resale value.
The highly customized M235i not so much.

It's awesome that the M235i is so highly praised in comparison to the M4.
If I go with the M235i next time around I'll be very happy.
But it gets that praise for the performance to dollar value, not because it's the better car.
M3/M4 buyers don't just buy the performance they want a BMW with high performance and one that looks as good as it does inside and out.
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      08-30-2014, 08:59 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
Dead in water..?

Odd.. if you gave me a M4, I would take it to the dealer and trade it in on a M235i..

Coincidentally, I would rather own a M2, than a M4 and so would most people... the only people who want a M4, are the people who want lux... not top performance..!
How do you know "most" people would want an M2 over an M4?
You don't.
But that's cool. It's the internet so we can all play.

There isn't an M2 by which to measure and know if it will outperform the M4.
Maybe it will, maybe it wont'.

M4 people want lux and NOT top performance?
Now you're just being argumentative.
It's much more likely that M4 buyers want luxury AND top performance and that is what the M4 has over the M235i.

If I got a free M4 there is NO way I'd trade it in on an M235i.
If you would really do that, then I'd say you don't know what you're doing.
But it's your choice to make bad decisions.
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      08-30-2014, 09:11 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
Right^, the M3/4 is an ultra-tech, non-sports car... that allows you to adjust things to your liking..! (ie: lux). Whats the prob?


Oddly, not^ what the M-Division was known for just 10 years ago..
Don't tell me M division was known for making sports cars 10 years ago.
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      08-30-2014, 09:14 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DML View Post
M4 creeping closer to 911 dollars... 2 makes much more sense as BMW has lost it's price way.
A quick look gave this.
Optioned 911 Carrera as close as an M4 without everything.
Base no extra cost paint for both.

911 MSRP: $101,930
M4 MSRP: $70,875

Not very close at all.

A base, base 911 Carrera w/out automated MT has an MSRP of $85,295.
And that 911 doesn't have
bi-xenon lights
basic audio system
no power sport seats
no sunroof
and other things that the M4 has at that optioned price.

Just the dual clutch AT costs $4080 for the 911.
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      08-30-2014, 09:19 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tke743 View Post
I think you miss the point. This is not an apples to apples comparison. The things I want are more closely tied to the M235i. I am looking for a daily driver I can take to the track, not a track car that I can drive daily. The M235i fits this better. I think the review in the op showed that is the criteria they were using too. If it was just a lap time rewiew, yes the M3/M4 would win. Again not apples to apples.

The two are functionally the same price for me and I chose the M235i.

On your second note, I too am over 6' and I prefer a car closer to the size of the e46 (which this is) and not the e60 sized M3/M4
You made some strongly opinionated points however.
Now, it seems you're backpeddling a bit and saying that the M235i is what you are looking for.
Well then stick with that instead of attempting to make it seem as if your M235i is the superior performance car and it costs less, and if given a free M4 you'd trade it for an M235i, presumably because it's the better car.

Your M235i is a great choice for very nice sport coupe, great choice.
But your other comments were in a different direction.
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      08-30-2014, 10:53 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
True. An M2 with a tune will likely out gun a stock M4.
But then, an M4 can be tuned too.

Throw enough money at most cars and they can match or better many higher priced cars that have already done the work for you and give you a warranty to go along with that higher level of performance.

Tune the M2 and it'll be faster. Tune the M4 and then that tuned M2 will need more tuning and more parts, like a larger turbo, better flowing exhaust, and then there's the suspension........

Then there's the whole other thing that gets missed, the M4 is a BMW.
With that, BMW doesn't just set out to make a fast, great handling sport coupe. It sets out to make a fast, great handling sport coupe along with the luxury level of the base model.
That interior costs money. The whole cost doesn't just go into the go fast bits. Then there is the sweet looking body and that costs more too.

Sure, you can get an M235i to go as fast as the M4 if you throw money at it.
You can probably get it to handle as well and even better if you throw more money at it. You can make it look nicer inside and outside if you throw more money at it. In the end you have a quite expensive customized car, nothing wrong with that for those who want something personal and unique.
Or, you can get an M4 that already has those things done for you, and it will have a very nice warranty along with really good resale value.
The highly customized M235i not so much.

It's awesome that the M235i is so highly praised in comparison to the M4.
If I go with the M235i next time around I'll be very happy.
But it gets that praise for the performance to dollar value, not because it's the better car.
M3/M4 buyers don't just buy the performance they want a BMW with high performance and one that looks as good as it does inside and out.

Here's is my take and please pardon the long post.
I went to my BMW dealer to to compare ordering an M3 ED vs getting one when deployed through military sales.I bought my E90 M3 from them in 2009 with a sticker price of $63kfor $55K .I was planing towards a stripped model I know I could get for $57Kthrough military sales and wanted to know if it would be close with ED
I have alway struggled with paying more than $55 K for a car and I guess $60 k is my threshold.I would quite frankly rather have 2 cars that cost $50 K than one that cost $100k
I had traded my 5 yr old E90 M3 last winter for an S4 and was longing to get back in an M3.
I drove to the dealer in my modded 2011 GT500,that made 700 rwhp and ran the quarter in high 10's.I had seen an M235 on the lot that I thought looked stunning.My guy( who has now sold me 3 Cars) suggested we take the M235 for a spin- suggesting it may give me a "feel of what the new M3 may be like.
I knew that was BS but went along anyway as I was curious.
i know he was just trying to sell me the M235 since he had one and was trying to discourage me doing ED or getting an M3 through military sales.

I was blown away !The size was just right.It felt nimble ,"tossable" and fast in straight line even compared to the Shelby! I had always thought they would bury me in the Shelby but I started thinking about trading it in after he offered me more money than I ever thought I would get for it(ended up selling it privately to an SVT forum member for almost 5k more so glad I did not trade it then).
I bought the car and later decided against keeping the shelby(planing on a 2015 GT to which I may add "twins" or the GT350.)
My wife was pleased as I finally got rid of one of the mustangs(for now)she called my pets-I kept the 800 rwhp 5.0!- it is not worth half of what I have put in so truly stuck with it for life...... What's my point?
Well last month they got an M4 and I was kind of mad I did not wait when I saw it. It looked stunning and kind of made my "cute" looking M235 look cheap !
However when I took it for a test drive I was glad I got the M235!
Yes ,it felt fast but I hated how it sounded .It may be the same weight but it sure felt huge I guess compared to the M235!
I have since spent roughly $600 on a JB4 plus some money on cosmetics like a lip,spacers,springs and MPE. I think the car looks and sounds great and even though still not as good looking as the M3/M4. I still stare longingly at times any time I see another newly delivered M3/M4 but spend more time driving the car then looking at it .The M235! honestly "feels" like one of the fastest car I have drive. on the street and sound awesome.Inam considering a down pipe but since the wife also likes driving the car(even though she learnt how to drive with a stick she hated my manual E90 M3 and would not even consider driving the Shelby)I may hold off If I can get the car to run a high 11 without one .
I love the drag strip( I know that is not the cars strongest point) and the car holds it own runing 12.40 112.5.This is my first auto car and I love it.
No stress drag racing.i love the look on the faces of my Mustang brethren when the car outruns shelbys(stock and in need of driver mod!)
It will also hang with bolt on 5.0's.
The best I ever ran in my manual E90 M3 was a 13.4- I only went once or twice and was kind of embarrassed to go back .Yes I am sure it would shine on a track- but that I never did(afraid to add other car related addiction that would be 10 times more expensive than drag racing!)
As a daily driver it is perfect( looks like the S4 is going to be limited to winter use -may be I will trade that for an x drive "for my daughter")I never thought I would feel this way about an automatic but the lower end torque is so intoxicating.Also convinced me turbo charging my next mustang using small twin turbos is the way to go vs supercharging which I have always done.

I don't even miss shifting myself ... That much.I do occasiony use manual mode and although it is not quite the same at least there is still a "stick" and I don't bother with he paddles.Most times I just leave it sport "double plus" I know it does not make a difference from "just plus" but I like the way it up shifts for a moment when I do.
Loving the car!

Last edited by olaosunt; 08-30-2014 at 11:15 PM..
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      08-31-2014, 10:52 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
the only thing the M235 is....is the modern 135i. Nothing more....nothing less.
The 135i is no longer.
The M235i is it's replacement.
It is also the better car as it's newer and more refined.
Lucky for us BMW didn't mess up with the new model.

I had a 135i, '03, and it was a fun car, but it needed improvements in the handling department and BMW did that.
For the AT the ZF is leaps and bounds better over the older 6spd.
Conclusion, the M235i is a better car over the former 135i, more and more.
newer is not always better. The E30 was a more enjoyable car than the E36 and the E46 was a more enjoyable car than the E9X....IMO.

Continuation is progression, but it doesn't necessarily mean 'more enjoyable'. That is a matter of opinion and the desires of the consumer. I want a simple and fun driving experience....everything else is secondary....to me.
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      08-31-2014, 11:30 AM   #162
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Performance asde, the front of the Alpina is a hot mess. I didn't think you could make a front fascia look worse than the M4, but I was wrong. Hate to say it, but from the front, the 235i actually looks best.

Auto-only in the Alpina is another WTF moment... No thanks, pass.

Too bad they don't shoehorn the M4 drivedrain into the 235i. Then we'd have a real monster.
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      09-01-2014, 10:12 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
How do you know "most" people would want an M2 over an M4?
You don't.
But that's cool. It's the internet so we can all play.

There isn't an M2 by which to measure and know if it will outperform the M4.
Maybe it will, maybe it wont'.

M4 people want lux and NOT top performance?
Now you're just being argumentative.
It's much more likely that M4 buyers want luxury AND top performance and that is what the M4 has over the M235i.

If I got a free M4 there is NO way I'd trade it in on an M235i.
If you would really do that, then I'd say you don't know what you're doing.
But it's your choice to make bad decisions.

Because MOST PEOPLE don't need a M4 to stroke their ego.

They can easily buy a pure track car like the M235i and throw some extra bits on it to get it to perform like they want... not withstanding BMW artificially lower it's siblings performance, because Lawyers & Doctors like to have #'s saying their lux-bomber M4 is "better"..!

Nobody thinks the new M4 is quintessential BMW... nobody! I would not own one if you gave it to me.. I'd sell it and buy a more proper BMW, like the M2, or a modified M235i.. why not?

Nothing wrong with that, it is just a different focus & direction than previous generations. Also, the smaller, lighter M-car will always pick up the track duties.



To me, BMW M has always had a spartan level of lux (see 1M, plz), just great engineering & craftsmanship. But now, since BMW's focus is less motosports, they now have focus more on features & lux to sell their M-cars..

Last edited by w3rkn; 09-01-2014 at 11:14 AM..
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      09-01-2014, 12:33 PM   #164
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I know this thread has gone onto arguments of the merits of M3/4s over the M235i. Trends noticed:
- Feelings of M235i owners who wish they could own the bigger M cars
- Defense of M235i owners who bought their cars for a reason

I won't contribue to either. But my thoughts on my purchase:
- The M 3/4 are too big for me. Coming from an Audi A4 (B8), I wanted to downsize.
- The M235i hits a sweet spot - reminds me of my 318ti long ago and E46 after that.
- That sweet engine ... wow, I just fell in love with it on the test drive. Unlike my Audi, it had torque all over, smooth a silk, and such a growl.
- 99% of the time, my A4 was not the family hauler, but just my wife and I. We got her a Q5 TDi. Her upgrade meant more room for my down-size
- The A4 has become tired. I still think mine looks great, but its big and there are a ton of them out now, far too common for my liking. I knew it would happen eventually though.

In the end, the M235i just fits me, my life at the moment, and my desires. The M3/4 are gorgeous, almost shamelessly so. But I'm not at that place in my life were I would want one of these in my garage. Maybe after my first retirement - I just don't think M cars should be Daily Drivers - they should be special events, in and of themselves. With the new Q5, kid prep for college, I could not see having 2 toys in the garage. So the M235i will be my awesome DD and maybe I will get a track toy at a later date.
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      09-01-2014, 09:42 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
newer is not always better. The E30 was a more enjoyable car than the E36 and the E46 was a more enjoyable car than the E9X....IMO.

Continuation is progression, but it doesn't necessarily mean 'more enjoyable'. That is a matter of opinion and the desires of the consumer. I want a simple and fun driving experience....everything else is secondary....to me.
True, newer isn't always better.
I didn't like the E90 3 series compared to my E46 so I went Audi that time.
But for the 1 to 2 series change the new changes improved the car.
So for this model newer is better, imo.
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      09-01-2014, 09:51 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olaosunt View Post
Here's is my take and please pardon the long post.
I went to my BMW dealer to to compare ordering an M3 ED vs getting one when deployed through military sales.I bought my E90 M3 from them in 2009 with a sticker price of $63kfor $55K .I was planing towards a stripped model I know I could get for $57Kthrough military sales and wanted to know if it would be close with ED
I have alway struggled with paying more than $55 K for a car and I guess $60 k is my threshold.I would quite frankly rather have 2 cars that cost $50 K than one that cost $100k
I had traded my 5 yr old E90 M3 last winter for an S4 and was longing to get back in an M3.
I drove to the dealer in my modded 2011 GT500,that made 700 rwhp and ran the quarter in high 10's.I had seen an M235 on the lot that I thought looked stunning.My guy( who has now sold me 3 Cars) suggested we take the M235 for a spin- suggesting it may give me a "feel of what the new M3 may be like.
I knew that was BS but went along anyway as I was curious.
i know he was just trying to sell me the M235 since he had one and was trying to discourage me doing ED or getting an M3 through military sales.

I was blown away !The size was just right.It felt nimble ,"tossable" and fast in straight line even compared to the Shelby! I had always thought they would bury me in the Shelby but I started thinking about trading it in after he offered me more money than I ever thought I would get for it(ended up selling it privately to an SVT forum member for almost 5k more so glad I did not trade it then).
I bought the car and later decided against keeping the shelby(planing on a 2015 GT to which I may add "twins" or the GT350.)
My wife was pleased as I finally got rid of one of the mustangs(for now)she called my pets-I kept the 800 rwhp 5.0!- it is not worth half of what I have put in so truly stuck with it for life...... What's my point?
Well last month they got an M4 and I was kind of mad I did not wait when I saw it. It looked stunning and kind of made my "cute" looking M235 look cheap !
However when I took it for a test drive I was glad I got the M235!
Yes ,it felt fast but I hated how it sounded .It may be the same weight but it sure felt huge I guess compared to the M235!
I have since spent roughly $600 on a JB4 plus some money on cosmetics like a lip,spacers,springs and MPE. I think the car looks and sounds great and even though still not as good looking as the M3/M4. I still stare longingly at times any time I see another newly delivered M3/M4 but spend more time driving the car then looking at it .The M235! honestly "feels" like one of the fastest car I have drive. on the street and sound awesome.Inam considering a down pipe but since the wife also likes driving the car(even though she learnt how to drive with a stick she hated my manual E90 M3 and would not even consider driving the Shelby)I may hold off If I can get the car to run a high 11 without one .
I love the drag strip( I know that is not the cars strongest point) and the car holds it own runing 12.40 112.5.This is my first auto car and I love it.
No stress drag racing.i love the look on the faces of my Mustang brethren when the car outruns shelbys(stock and in need of driver mod!)
It will also hang with bolt on 5.0's.
The best I ever ran in my manual E90 M3 was a 13.4- I only went once or twice and was kind of embarrassed to go back .Yes I am sure it would shine on a track- but that I never did(afraid to add other car related addiction that would be 10 times more expensive than drag racing!)
As a daily driver it is perfect( looks like the S4 is going to be limited to winter use -may be I will trade that for an x drive "for my daughter")I never thought I would feel this way about an automatic but the lower end torque is so intoxicating.Also convinced me turbo charging my next mustang using small twin turbos is the way to go vs supercharging which I have always done.

I don't even miss shifting myself ... That much.I do occasiony use manual mode and although it is not quite the same at least there is still a "stick" and I don't bother with he paddles.Most times I just leave it sport "double plus" I know it does not make a difference from "just plus" but I like the way it up shifts for a moment when I do.
Loving the car!
I can dig it.
It's always true that each person makes his own decision based on his own preferences, wants, and needs.
For you the M235i sounds like the better choice.
I too have a limit as to how much I'm willing to spend on a car, so the M3/M4 wasn't and isn't on my list.

The only thing I'm saying is that the M4 is a fine automobile, and of the 2 it is the better tested performer.
Numbers don't lie.
But the majority of us don't always buy by the numbers, case in point, your particular experience.

All I and others are saying is that the M4 is the higher performing car along with being the more "luxurious" car.
For those who want those things BMW has built a car for them, and those people will spend that kind of money.
The M235i is not a direct lower cost replacement for the M4.
But it sure is a great lower cost car so that we can enjoy a performance level that beats previous M3's, and that's a great situation for us.
Sub 5 second 0-60 and a nicely optioned car for under $50K, that works for me.

But if someone gave the option of a free M235i or an M4, well, I'm in the M4.
Aren't fantasies grand!?
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      09-01-2014, 09:58 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
Because MOST PEOPLE don't need a M4 to stroke their ego.

They can easily buy a pure track car like the M235i and throw some extra bits on it to get it to perform like they want... not withstanding BMW artificially lower it's siblings performance, because Lawyers & Doctors like to have #'s saying their lux-bomber M4 is "better"..!

Nobody thinks the new M4 is quintessential BMW... nobody! I would not own one if you gave it to me.. I'd sell it and buy a more proper BMW, like the M2, or a modified M235i.. why not?

Nothing wrong with that, it is just a different focus & direction than previous generations. Also, the smaller, lighter M-car will always pick up the track duties.



To me, BMW M has always had a spartan level of lux (see 1M, plz), just great engineering & craftsmanship. But now, since BMW's focus is less motosports, they now have focus more on features & lux to sell their M-cars..
You are not everybody. Your assumptions are soundly based on your preferences and world view, and that clearly is not "every body" nor "nobody".

And this, "...pure track car like the M235i "
That's a grand example of hyperbole.
Again, it's the internet, a vast land of unsubstantiated, unsupported, self imposed reality, where everyone is an expert on everything and facts are simply barriers made of clouds, and we can all play in it.
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      09-03-2014, 01:58 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
True. An M2 with a tune will likely out gun a stock M4.
But then, an M4 can be tuned too.

Throw enough money at most cars and they can match or better many higher priced cars that have already done the work for you and give you a warranty to go along with that higher level of performance.

Tune the M2 and it'll be faster. Tune the M4 and then that tuned M2 will need more tuning and more parts, like a larger turbo, better flowing exhaust, and then there's the suspension........
To clarify my perspective. I know that all cars with enough money will be able to outperform other cars with less money invested.

My point was that turbos make cars so much easier to tune for power that there is less of a distinction between them (powerwise). I think (I hope) the M2 will be a better platform than the M4 due to its more compact size and hopefully less weight. The M2 will be a better platform than the M235i because of the chassis and suspension tuning that make M cars, M cars. [Hopefully the M2 follows the 1M tradition and gets essentially all of the M3 suspension bits.]

Therefore, for me, the M2 is the car to look out for. Both stock and modified.
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      09-08-2014, 11:54 PM   #169
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I dunno guys. I think they're both great cars. I also think they are totally different. And here's my short novel on why....

I test drove the M235i first really to get an impression of the new electric power steering since my e92 335i obviously has the hydraulic. I had been toying with the idea of getting an M235i next as well and had to see what it was about. I walked away from the experience thinking I couldn't justify getting rid of my 335i for it, to me they were too similar to justify extending my car debt a few more years (I don't buy all my cars with cash...you ballers). I'm not saying it's not better than an e92 335i but it didn't feel overwhelmingly better (mine is the M-sport)...not HOLY SH*T I HAVE TO HAVE THIS CAR better.

So a while down the road my dealership got it's first M4, striking car in Sakhir Orange. I drove it, it was absolutely amazing. I will agree the dimensions were a little weird to me but man that engine and chassis are just sweet sweet things. There is no comparison at all in my book as far as driving dynamics go. The ride was noticeably more compliant than my 335i, I mean I am constantly getting beat up in my car and taking the M4 on some familiar rough roads it was WAY smoother, but at the same time it handled like an M car. Amazing. So I guess I don't get the whole argument about the M235i being a better daily, I just don't see that at all. Next I drove the M3. The dimensions on the M3 made more sense to me, plus it's super practical; it is the ultimate in performance combined with daily driveability. If money is no factor then M3 it is in my opinion.

I feel like there may be a lot of people here that haven't driven all of these cars and are simply regurgitating things from other sources/stat racing. If you have driven them all and actually prefer the M235i then good on ya, it is a wonderful car. If you haven't driven them all then maybe you should before you start forming opinions.

Oh, if any of you that think the S55 = N55 check this out: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1015603 Second document, starting at page 5, pretty informative.

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      09-10-2014, 11:20 PM   #170
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[QUOTE=BimmerEngineer;16518399]

Sorry BMW but until you can get back into the sporting, fun drivers car business (BMW has gotten very soft), I'm possibly migrating. That ugly fat forehead nav screen needs to retract someplace. It's darn right ugly and ruins the rather so, so interior. The old 1'ers interior had more personality then this. QUOTE]

(1) Everyone's getting softer to please the Chinese market--biggest in the world now--that wants cars like that. (2) These kind of nav screens are popping up (no pun intended) to prepare us for cars that no longer come with nav or entertainment systems: you will simply place your iPad in that location and get all your input through your smartphone...
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