[G-Mann]

Thanks for the response Dinan it is a sweet setup, I cannot wait for the head to head tests to come out. Is that something you will be sponsoring? Regarding the warranty, what are my warranty options once the manufacture/Dinan warranty have expired?

Nice work, glad to see the development for the platform.

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by G-Mann

Thanks for the response Dinan it is a sweet setup, I cannot wait for the head to head tests to come out. Is that something you will be sponsoring? Regarding the warranty, what are my warranty options once the manufacture/Dinan warranty have expired?

Nice work, glad to see the development for the platform.

Once the big turbo package is complete the M235i (and most likely our 435i as well) will be going out for a press run with various magazines and blogs including Car & Driver and they will run it through the tests that they normally do. I'm sure they will do some comparisons....

In regards to warranty options after the new car warranty... there really isn't any as 99% of the extended warranties out there strictly forbid aftermarket performance products. I will stop short of saying all extended warranties will preclude performance parts as I am sure there is some sketchy outfit out there that will. We actually attempted to provide our own extended warranty about 5-7 years ago and it just never really went anywhere or caught on like we had envisioned so it was abandoned.

[rwalker]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

Upgraded turbo would be part of the package. It is not on the site as the Intercooler, stage 3 / 4, and the big turbo are not yet available as they are still awaiting production pieces and getting the associated tuning tweaked.

Makes sense, thanks for the visibility. No comment on partner for turbo? Everybody has their favorite

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

Not much to speak of other than camber plates...

Any more info on these? Will Dinan offer something that works with stock struts and springs?

[Bee Pee]

Originally Posted by rwalker

Any more info on these? Will Dinan offer something that works with stock struts and springs?

Ditto re whats quoted on the Dinan S3 blog "S3 includes revised lower control arms" ??

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by rwalker

Makes sense, thanks for the visibility. No comment on partner for turbo? Everybody has their favorite

Any more info on these (camber plates)? Will Dinan offer something that works with stock struts and springs?

No comment on the Turbo partner. =)

My understanding is the camber plates would work with the OE setup as well as an aftermarket suspension but honestly its just a bunch of heresay at this point as no official information has been passed down. Just random water cooler talk...

Originally Posted by Bee Pee

Ditto re whats quoted on the Dinan S3 blog "S3 includes revised lower control arms" ??

The revised lower control arms the article is making mention of is the monoball kit that has been on the market for about 4-6 months. Product listing can be found HERE.

[Bee Pee]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

The revised lower control arms the article is making mention of is the monoball kit that has been on the market for about 4-6 months. Product listing can be found HERE.

Are these monoball kits for both LCA's and tension struts or LCA's only ?

Are they sold in pairs or 2 x pairs for both arms on both sides ?

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by Bee Pee

Are these monoball kits for both LCA's and tension struts or LCA's only ?

Are they sold in pairs or 2 x pairs for both arms on both sides ?

LCA's only. Sold as a kit with a pair of replacement bushings/ball joints.

[mvallido]

Thanks for the update Dinan. I'm so happy with my stage 2 power package and so ready for stage 3. Can't wait!

[abdiel]

Any planned transmission upgrades for the ZF 8HP45?

[Pparana]

I do not think the pricing is or (will) be that bad, People who buy dinan like the warranty, dealer ext.

Also It is all tested verified, ext. Personally I like JB4, and my own tuning, but most people just want plug and play.

Kind of reminds me of computers in the mid 90s. Think of Dinan as Dell, and JB4, and sourcing all the bolt ons as building your own computer.

Dell works out of the box, and a brand name. That does it for a lot of people.

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by abdiel

Any planned transmission upgrades for the ZF 8HP45?

Not to my knowledge. The transmission in all of our testing thus far has been pretty bullet proof.

[mpizutti]

Is Dinan going to offer a down pipe

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by mpizutti

Is Dinan going to offer a down pipe

No. Never will. We aim to have a 100% emissions legal product line-up. Just look at VW's recent woes and you can understand why.

[mpizutti]

Thanks

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by MrBimmerM235i

I can't fucking stand all this hate and bla bla bla for Dinan. Guys... you can't affort it? BUY SOMETHING ELSE. There's A LOT of different options in the market. If you don't have anything positive to say then STFO!!!

I doubt it is an affordability issue for most. I think it is more of a WTF are they thinking for what are essentially mediocre performance gains.

Basically, they are the Renntech of the BMW world and think they can crap in a jar, put a Dinan label on it along with a price tag of $1,000. I believe most "Dinan haters" are just trying to protect other owners from a complete raping by suggesting other suitable alternatives.

[F80Boost]

Originally Posted by mc3456

I doubt it is an affordability issue for most. I think it is more of a WTF are they thinking for what are essentially mediocre performance gains.

Basically, they are the Renntech of the BMW world and think they can crap in a jar, put a Dinan label on it along with a price tag of $1,000. I believe most "Dinan haters" are just trying to protect other owners from a complete raping by suggesting other suitable alternatives.

Dinan, prove us wrong.

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

Upgraded turbo would be part of the package. It is not on the site as the Intercooler, stage 3 / 4, and the big turbo are not yet available as they are still awaiting production pieces and getting the associated tuning tweaked.



Not much to speak of other then camber plates, custom Koni shocks/struts and our own electronic shock system (for cars not equipped with M Adaptive suspension) are all in various stages of development. While the electronic shock system is cool I have no idea how they plan on making it practical within a realistic price point.

If you break it down in general even with the approximate inflated pricing on the intercooler and the turbo everything is realistically within the current market place and is not staggering largely above that. The intercooler at 1k (again a high estimate) is about $200 above the top of the line name brand as an example but we are pretty confident it will out-perform it quite handily in head to head tests. The turbo kit at the $2500 price point is well within the market as that pricing would include install kits, core charges, etc. Not to mention the big sell point on the turbo being is that it is intended to be, and will be submitted to be, emissions legal. The only item that is priced out of line of the competition is the tuner itself which is partly due to extensive R&D, emissions legality, and warranty coverage, all of which are unique unto the product so it just naturally is going to be more expensive. The other thing that people (typically non-Dinan customers) seem to always miss in reference to pricing is that the upgrades in the stages are only charged the difference in cost. If you have stage 2 and ware going up to stage 4 you are just paying $500 for the upgraded tune not a full amount.

I don't want to be overly critical of Dinan, but I've yet to see any tangible proof why one should pay such an extreme premium for the product. I am definitely the type to pay up for better product, but unless Dinan can prove it to the marketplace in a more independently tangible way, there will always be "haters" (doubters in actuality).

I've read the pro-Dinan puff blog articles, and I've also read the ones that show nary a difference of improvement for the investment. If you want to dominate the marketplace and silence all the haters/doubters, in my mind, you really have two options:

1.). Bring pricing on the tune more into line with market. Remember, a tune is the gateway drug to further mods. Firsthand experience usually breeds loyalty and further purchases. Prime Example: Burger. Let's face it, they are essentially selling beta product, but the pricing is what hooks people first, gets the product into their hands, and creates positive buzz.

BTW...please don't rely on the standard BS Dinan has a warranty reply, because if you are truly convinced of how great and well-engineered your product is, you would not even have to offer a warranty promise, nor reserve funds for potential claims...hence, financed by higher out of market pricing. Just my two cents.

2.) Supply a modified car for independent instrumented comparison testing done by a major publication (R&T, C&D, Motor Trend, etc). Dinan-friendly anecdotal puff pieces by Autoblog are pretty much useless. They raise more doubt in my mind.

Lastly, I heard a Dinan Exhaust for an F80 yesterday at my local dealer, and I was impressed by the sound, but really dislike the design of the exhaust tips. They basically look like a sawed off and chromed piece of ordinary stainless pipe. Very unimpressive. Make a double-walled tip version or slanted tip version and even I will seriously contemplate selling my MPE and replacing it with Dinan.

See...many of us want to believe in Dinan products, but the price points and lack of independent testing are major obstacles in opening up our collective wallets.

[F80Boost]

Originally Posted by mc3456

I don't want to be overly critical of Dinan, but I've yet to see any tangible proof why one should pay such an extreme premium for the product. I am definitely the type to pay up for better product, but unless Dinan can prove it to the marketplace in a more independently tangible way, there will always be "haters" (doubters in actuality).

I've read the pro-Dinan puff articles, and I've also read the ones that show nary a difference of improvement for the investment. If you want to dominate the marketplace and silence all the haters/doubters, in my mind, you really have two options:

1.). Bring pricing on the tune more into line with market. Remember, a tune is the gateway drug to further mods. Firsthand experience usually breeds loyalty and further purchases. Prime Example: Burger. Let's face it, they are essentially selling beta product, but the pricing is what hooks people first, gets the product into their hands, and creates positive buzz.

BTW...please don't rely on the standard BS Dinan has a warranty reply, because if you are truly convinced of how great and well-engineered your product is, you would not even have to offer a warranty promise, nor reserve funds for potential claims...hence, financed by higher out of market pricing. Just my two cents.

2.) Supply a modified car for independent instrumented comparison testing done by a major publication (R&T, C&D, Motor Trend, etc). Dinan-friendly anecdotal puff pieces by Autoblog are pretty much useless. They raise more doubt in my mind.

Lastly, I heard a Dinan Exhaust for an F80 yesterday at my local dealer, and I was impressed by the sound, but really dislike the design of the exhaust tips. They basically look like a sawed off and chromed piece of ordinary stainless pipe. Very unimpressive. Make a double-walled tip version or slanted tip version and even I will seriously contemplate selling my MPE and replacing it with Dinan.

See...many of us want to believe in Dinan products, but the price points and lack of independent testing are major obstacles in opening up our collective wallets.

took the words right out of my brain

im in the market for a Dinan tune, and as soon as i see proof of its potential, im in.

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by mc3456

I don't want to be overly critical of Dinan, but I've yet to see any tangible proof why one should pay such an extreme premium for the product. I am definitely the type to pay up for better product, but unless Dinan can prove it to the marketplace in a more independently tangible way, there will always be "haters" (doubters in actuality).

I've read the pro-Dinan puff articles, and I've also read the ones that show nary a difference of improvement for the investment. If you want to dominate the marketplace and silence all the haters/doubters, in my mind, you really have two options:

1.). Bring pricing on the tune more into line with market. Remember, a tune is the gateway drug to further mods. Firsthand experience usually breeds loyalty and further purchases. Prime Example: Burger. Let's face it, they are essentially selling beta product, but the pricing is what hooks people first, gets the product into their hands, and creates positive buzz.

BTW...please don't rely on the standard BS Dinan has a warranty reply, because if you are truly convinced of how great and well-engineered your product is, you would not even have to offer a warranty promise, nor reserve funds for potential claims...hence, financed by higher out of market pricing. Just my two cents.

2.) Supply a modified car for independent instrumented comparison testing done by a major publication (R&T, C&D, Motor Trend, etc). Dinan-friendly anecdotal puff pieces by Autoblog are pretty much useless. They raise more doubt in my mind.

Lastly, I heard a Dinan Exhaust for an F80 yesterday at my local dealer, and I was impressed by the sound, but really dislike the design of the exhaust tips. They basically look like a sawed off and chromed piece of ordinary stainless pipe. Very unimpressive. Make a double-walled tip version or slanted tip version and even I will seriously contemplate selling my MPE and replacing it with Dinan.

See...many of us want to believe in Dinan products, but the price points and lack of independent testing are major obstacles in opening up our collective wallets.

I appreciate the feedback. The fact of the matter is we will never be able satisfy everyone. We aim to produce a highly engineered, high quality, warrantied product that does not jeopardize the life of the vehicle while providing increased performance. Some people want all of these things but don't want to pay the cost necessary to produce that product. These are not our customers. Some people just want max power and don't care about warranty or life of the vehicle. These are not our customers. Would we like them to be? Sure, but we do not cater to their SPECIFIC wants and needs so the chances of that happening are small. We believe if these people got behind the wheel of a Dinan tuned vehicle they would enjoy it and appreciate the quality of the experience. This is why we encourage all of our dealers to have demo vehicles on hand; to show the Dinan difference first hand. If the local dealer (Gallery I presume) had an exhaust on a vehicle I can guarantee a tune was on their as well. Ask them for a test drive and I am sure they would oblige. That's what its there for. A personal experience / interaction is worth more then any media article that could ever be made in my opinion.

To your specific points: The cost is the cost. While you don't appreciate the warranty added cost and we do believe in our engineering, quality, etc it does have an associated cost. It just does. I'm sure BMW believes in their engineering and products but they still have a warranty as well and you can be sure that cost is passed along to you in that purchase price. The fact of the matter is we are the ONLY vendor with a factory matching warranty.If other vendors believed in their product like we do why don't they offer a warranty for no added cost? The other cost associated with Dinan is emissions legality. For some this is a moot point and they don't care. That's fine, but regardless, it isn't a cheap process to go through and does add an expense. Not the answer you wanted to hear I am sure but its 2 of the most costly reasons why our tune is more expensive.

We do supply cars to C&D, R&T and the like. Currently there is a C&D article on our M4 on the docket that should be making it to press at some point in the near future. If you rely on them for accurate data and the end all be all then your logic is flawed there though as well (although I admit at least it gives you some reference point). They quite literally destroy the car in their testing. They do things to the car to get the best time that no one in there right mind would do to their own vehicle. Sure they get these great times but matching them in the real world is pretty close to impossible. Also, this is a prime example of Dinan being held to a different standard. We are demanded to supply these things and have independent testing from major publications but no such demands have ever been given to other vendors (as far as I have ever seen). We do these things anyway as part as our process but it is also time consuming and means the car is not in development for a minimum of a month. Ultimately what this means is the car is only supplied for media drives when everything is done for it as doing so otherwise means that development and product releases come to a screeching halt.

In regards to the exhaust tips... To each their own. There seems to be 2 camps on tips; those that like the doublewalled tips / rolled tips w/ notched cutouts and all that jazz and those that like the thin walled versions that Dinan has always used. Goes back to not being able to please everyone. It's been one of our trademarks for 30 odd years so I personally don't see that changing. For an exhaust though isn't the most important thing the sound though? =)

[G-Mann]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

To your specific points: The cost is the cost. While you don't appreciate the warranty added cost and we do believe in our engineering, quality, etc it does have an associated cost. It just does. I'm sure BMW believes in their engineering and products but they still have a warranty as well and you can be sure that cost is passed along to you in that purchase price. The fact of the matter is we are the ONLY vendor with a factory matching warranty.If other vendors believed in their product like we do why don't they offer a warranty for no added cost? The other cost associated with Dinan is emissions legality. For some this is a moot point and they don't care. That's fine, but regardless, it isn't a cheap process to go through and does add an expense. Not the answer you wanted to hear I am sure but its 2 of the most costly reasons why our tune is more expensive.

=)

I can't help but wonder if you were to lower your prices by say 30% what effect that would have on your bottom line? 100, 200 400% increase in sales? Seems like a win win.

[Dinan_Engineering]

Originally Posted by G-Mann

I can't help but wonder if you were to lower your prices by say 30% what effect that would have on your bottom line? 100, 200 400% increase in sales? Seems like a win win.

I can only assume the bean counters and all the investment groups have done that analysis. Lowering prices is one thing but then keeping the overhead means we would have to sell X amount to recoup the "losses" we would have had at the beginning of just having the higher cost. Would we offset that? Who knows. While it has never been done directly with DINANTRONICS I know back last year that we did an experiment of lowering some prices (up to 25%) on certain exhausts and other goods to see what affect it would have on the sales of those units. The answer was there was absolutely NO increase in sales on those goods over the course of 4 months. So we were losing money just to lose money with no additional sales in those particular cases.

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering

I appreciate the feedback. The fact of the matter is we will never be able satisfy everyone. We aim to produce a highly engineered, high quality, warrantied product that does not jeopardize the life of the vehicle while providing increased performance. Some people want all of these things but don't want to pay the cost necessary to produce that product. These are not our customers. Some people just want max power and don't care about warranty or life of the vehicle. These are not our customers. Would we like them to be? Sure, but we do not cater to their SPECIFIC wants and needs so the chances of that happening are small. We believe if these people got behind the wheel of a Dinan tuned vehicle they would enjoy it and appreciate the quality of the experience. This is why we encourage all of our dealers to have demo vehicles on hand; to show the Dinan difference first hand. If the local dealer (Gallery I presume) had an exhaust on a vehicle I can guarantee a tune was on their as well. Ask them for a test drive and I am sure they would oblige. That's what its there for. A personal experience / interaction is worth more then any media article that could ever be made in my opinion.

To your specific points: The cost is the cost. While you don't appreciate the warranty added cost and we do believe in our engineering, quality, etc it does have an associated cost. It just does. I'm sure BMW believes in their engineering and products but they still have a warranty as well and you can be sure that cost is passed along to you in that purchase price. The fact of the matter is we are the ONLY vendor with a factory matching warranty.If other vendors believed in their product like we do why don't they offer a warranty for no added cost? The other cost associated with Dinan is emissions legality. For some this is a moot point and they don't care. That's fine, but regardless, it isn't a cheap process to go through and does add an expense. Not the answer you wanted to hear I am sure but its 2 of the most costly reasons why our tune is more expensive.

We do supply cars to C&D, R&T and the like. Currently there is a C&D article on our M4 on the docket that should be making it to press at some point in the near future. If you rely on them for accurate data and the end all be all then your logic is flawed there though as well (although I admit at least it gives you some reference point). They quite literally destroy the car in their testing. They do things to the car to get the best time that no one in there right mind would do to their own vehicle. Sure they get these great times but matching them in the real world is pretty close to impossible. Also, this is a prime example of Dinan being held to a different standard. We are demanded to supply these things and have independent testing from major publications but no such demands have ever been given to other vendors (as far as I have ever seen). We do these things anyway as part as our process but it is also time consuming and means the car is not in development for a minimum of a month. Ultimately what this means is the car is only supplied for media drives when everything is done for it as doing so otherwise means that development and product releases come to a screeching halt.

In regards to the exhaust tips... To each their own. There seems to be 2 camps on tips; those that like the doublewalled tips / rolled tips w/ notched cutouts and all that jazz and those that like the thin walled versions that Dinan has always used. Goes back to not being able to please everyone. It's been one of our trademarks for 30 odd years so I personally don't see that changing. For an exhaust though isn't the most important thing the sound though? =)

Here's where I don't buy the "we charge more because we are better" argument...if you are providing such a more highly-engineered product, why are your much more expensive performance gains so vastly similar to what your competitors obtain for far less money? Surely they are not cutting corners to only get similar performance gains. Also, some of your claims are for much higher horsepower, so wouldn't you be stressing systems more for those gains? Basically, you can't have it both ways.

Also, if your product has such amazing safeguards of not stressing the engine, why are you so concerned about the magazines fully testing your product? If you have gone to such great lengths to not take great risks for gains, then the cars should not be compromised. Call me crazy, but I tend to like objective data when making decisions involving money. Might those be the same sorts of analyses that your beancounters are also doing?

Here's the thing, you can discount all the potential customers who are not yet convinced of the Dinan value proposition as not being true customers, but for many they are true potential customers in so far as they want to be certain that the promised Dinan Premium Value Proposition is actually real and not just a bunch of BS to justify screwing unwitting buyers. Having demo cars available is certainly a smart move, but as we all know, anecdotal seat of the pants impressions are not as accurate as instrumented tests. If they were, you'd be selling a S-load more "pretty" CAI intakes, right?

Lastly, regarding the design of your tailpipes, they may be 30 years old, but at the same time, they are 30 years old. Time to evolve a bit when you are charging premium prices, just as BMW's engineering in the cars has. Worst case scenario, you can offer several tip options for different tastes to broaden the market for your product. To not do it just plain stupid/lazy. Again, it's about designing what the customer wants, not what is cheapest and easist for Dinan to produce. Candidly, the sawed off single wall pipe looks cheap as hell, and certainly not worthy of gracing a $50-120k car. Though I thought the brief sound bite was decent, the hacky looking pipes are just something I personally can't get past. Change those to something of higher quality, and I will gladly sell my MPE and install Dinan. Hate to state the obvious here, but all your competitors are outselling your exhaust systems based on the tip design just as much if not more than the sound alone.

Pulling for your M4 to show some actual performance gains in that upcoming C&D article (couldn't care less about blogs), but I am a bit skeptical based on prior "more anecdotal" articles I've seen before that show hardly any marked peformance gains.

Again, if you actually accomplished/evidenced something in instrumented tests to justify the premium priced Dinan value proposition -vs- a stock M4 in a head to head test, then I'll gladly dump my Turner bits and pay your out of market pricing.