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      01-20-2014, 11:00 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattgfx View Post
A question that i haven't seen answered quiet yet, Whats happens if the electronic steering fails? Do you loose all steering?
No. It's not "electronic steering" (i.e. steer-by-wire which AFAIK is only available in the Infiniti Q50 as of today) it's just electrically assisted steering. An electric motor helps you turn the wheel, versus a hydraulic pump that would do the same thing.
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      01-20-2014, 11:20 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psuibmw
I like the profile of the M235 in this pic really a lot
I believe that's a 228i
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      01-21-2014, 12:42 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Sam, have you ever driven a Z4M or have any comments on how it would compare to the M235i? Not just in steering but overall.
Hi Chris,

I have spent some time in a Z4M Roadster. I would say it's quite a different animal from the M235i.

Several reasons for this:
1. The Z4M Roadster/Coupe have quite a different driving position from the 2. They are quite unconventional by BMW standards. Long hood, driver towards the rear wheels, sunken in the car. That long nose, big power and eagerness to swap ends seems to dominate the driving experience. The 2 series is much more like a conventional BMW. Upright, driver forward, taller, more refined, easier to drive at the limits.

2. The Z4, like the Z3 before it, are quite crude dynamically by BMW standards. They are a riot and very fun in their own way, but do not have the chassis sophistication and body control that have made BMW famous.

3. The Z4M retains the screaming S54 engine that we all remember so fondly. Naturally aspirated, high redline, inline 6, this is what old school BMWs are all about. If you already have a Z4M and still enjoy it, don't be in too much of a rush to get rid of it. They are rare and hold value for a reason.

The Z4M does not feel as heavy as the M235i, which is a great thing, but it also does not share its breadth of ability or its dynamic polish. As a fun toy and a characterful experience and a collectible item, it is great. As a car to feel comfortable in and take on many many different tasks satisfyingly, it is not as good. But what is good and bad in this context depends entirely on you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devon K
As someone who's also had some time behind the wheel of an FRS I'd be interested in hearing some more comparisons between that and the 2 in terms of ride and handling.
Hi Devon,

The FRS and M235i are quite different as well.

1. The FRS is much lighter, more tossable, and more responsive to changes in direction. It is also far more eager to drift. It is an absolute drift machine and for that reason, an absolute riot. However, it does not have the level of sophistication and dynamic polish of the Bimmer. It does not have the superb ride or the infallible body control over poor surfaces.

2. The FRS's engine is quite peaky. There is nothing exciting below 4krpm. When the fireworks do arrive, it is rough, crude, an absolute chainsaw but a lot of fun. The BMW is a torquey, smooth, revvy turbine in comparison. Not as crude, not not as raw, but far more powerful. It will dust the FRS in a straight line!

3. The FRS is a reinvented 90s car. The M235i is current day, for better or for worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland
The bonnet is elongated in that shot because of the spherical distortion of the camera lens.
Very astute observation. I shot that at 24mm on a full frame, so yes, what you see here is a much longer, flatter version of what a 228i normally looks like. The giveaway is in the edges of the frame where objects are stretched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls
Most if not all reviews have praised the 991's electric steering. I personally haven't driven one but one doesn't have to such an extreme to see what good EPS. The R56 MINI has a good steering setup and I find it's a lot better than the initial F30 setup. For me that's what annoyed me when I test drove the F30. It wasn't like the F30 was BMW's first attempt at it, they already had it in the R56 and to see what they did to the F30 was disappointing. Now there are other factors to consider like suspension and the MINI has a hard one which helps provide better steering but this maybe furthers the idea that perhaps BMW made the 3 a bit too soft because even in sport mode, it's still not as good as the MINI.

Just my 0.02.
In my opinion, the new 991/981s are not the current benchmark for EPS. The current benchmark is the GT86/FT86/FRS/BRZ.

Porsche's system is stupendously precise, very responsive, very cohesive with the chassis, but I've spent a lot of time driving the 991 and 981 on both track and street, and it often feels very numb. It's similar to the BMWs in that under light lateral load, there is very little road texture to be felt or weight to push against. This makes it feel a bit digital and like a game controller.

As soon as you up the commitment, it does spring to life, but Porsche seems to have taken a page out of the BMW book where low speed, friction free, effort free steering is concerned.

However, word on the street is that the new GT3 features a completely different calibration and even the most angry of enthusiasts are now pacified. I think I will want to sample one to find out on my own.

Again, it's all in the tuning. I think we will see these systems improve very quickly in the coming generation. EPS is not a deal breaker, but until we see manufactures optimize them fully, it will also be the first thing people blame when we experience a less than ideal steering. That's not to say we can't enjoy the current crop of cars as is. The M235i was very enjoyable and the 991/981 are both very enjoyable.
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      01-21-2014, 01:12 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam@Bimmerpost View Post
When the fireworks do arrive, it is rough, crude, an absolute chainsaw but a lot of fun.
Very apt metaphor. First thing I'd do if got a BRZ is plug up the sound tube, makes it much more livable.
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      01-21-2014, 02:31 AM   #49
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Great review and nice to see "official" bimmer post journalists !!

This site is becoming more and more the one and only voice of the BMW enthusiast community

If you are getting paid, then you my friend have my dream job.
Scratch that, you have my dream job even if you're not paid !!
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      01-21-2014, 03:02 AM   #50
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Great review, thank you for that.

Any idea why there was only really row upon row of Melbourne Red?
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      01-21-2014, 06:40 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland
Quote:
Originally Posted by psuibmw View Post
I like the profile of the M235 in this pic really a lot
The bonnet is elongated in that shot because of the spherical distortion of the camera lens.
True ... It reminds me of the Z4 especially the hood
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      01-21-2014, 09:01 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramos
Great review and nice to see "official" bimmer post journalists !!

This site is becoming more and more the one and only voice of the BMW enthusiast community

If you are getting paid, then you my friend have my dream job.
Scratch that, you have my dream job even if you're not paid !!
Indeed!!!!
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      01-21-2014, 09:45 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unintelligible
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattgfx View Post
A question that i haven't seen answered quiet yet, Whats happens if the electronic steering fails? Do you loose all steering?
No. It's not "electronic steering" (i.e. steer-by-wire which AFAIK is only available in the Infiniti Q50 as of today) it's just electrically assisted steering. An electric motor helps you turn the wheel, versus a hydraulic pump that would do the same thing.
Oh ok, so it doesn't use fluid at all? It's not a hybrid system correct.
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      01-21-2014, 09:51 AM   #54
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Sam, any interesting tidbits on the LSD?
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      01-21-2014, 10:11 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattgfx
Quote:
Originally Posted by unintelligible
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattgfx View Post
A question that i haven't seen answered quiet yet, Whats happens if the electronic steering fails? Do you loose all steering?
No. It's not "electronic steering" (i.e. steer-by-wire which AFAIK is only available in the Infiniti Q50 as of today) it's just electrically assisted steering. An electric motor helps you turn the wheel, versus a hydraulic pump that would do the same thing.
Oh ok, so it doesn't use fluid at all? It's not a hybrid system correct.
Correct x2
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      01-21-2014, 11:19 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattgfx View Post
Oh ok, so it doesn't use fluid at all? It's not a hybrid system correct.
A great resource on electric assisted vs hydraulic assisted.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...n-test-feature
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      01-21-2014, 11:41 AM   #57
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I have been wondering…..What happens to the M Adaptive settings for the suspension if you change it to the M Performance suspension?
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      01-21-2014, 01:04 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feli_330i View Post
I have been wondering…..What happens to the M Adaptive settings for the suspension if you change it to the M Performance suspension?
You lose the adaptive function, it just becomes regular passive suspension.
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      01-21-2014, 08:57 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psuibmw View Post
I like the profile of the M235 in this pic really a lot
The car in the pic is a 228i, not a M235i. Also looks like it has the base pkg (No sport line).

I do agree that Glacier Silver is nice. Im still debating this or MG...
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      01-22-2014, 09:35 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
A great resource on electric assisted vs hydraulic assisted.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...n-test-feature
There's a chart in the data section showing effort vs lateral g that says it all. Hydraulic has the stronger ramp-up in effort before it goes light right before the limit, while electric is just a straight line with a very mild slope. The only weird thing was that C&D seemed to praise this linear behavior as better, but I disagree. That buildup in effort with increasing cornering forces and wheel going light right at the limit *IS* steering feel. It's how the steering communicates to the driver how hard the front tires are working and when they are about to let go.

I certainly hope it is getting better because our 2013 F30 with DHP/VSS is frickin awful. In terms of effort it's the automotive equivalent of a weak handshake or dancing with a partner who doesn't push against you to make a frame. Driving 2 E90s back to back with it was an absolute revelation.

I agree that Sam's article has what we need to know written between the lines. That commitment to friction free and very low effort around town is the sad part. If we keep apologizing for it and heaping faint praise at it, then the terrorists have won.
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      01-22-2014, 01:29 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptt127 View Post
There's a chart in the data section showing effort vs lateral g that says it all. Hydraulic has the stronger ramp-up in effort before it goes light right before the limit, while electric is just a straight line with a very mild slope. The only weird thing was that C&D seemed to praise this linear behavior as better, but I disagree. That buildup in effort with increasing cornering forces and wheel going light right at the limit *IS* steering feel. It's how the steering communicates to the driver how hard the front tires are working and when they are about to let go.

I certainly hope it is getting better because our 2013 F30 with DHP/VSS is frickin awful. In terms of effort it's the automotive equivalent of a weak handshake or dancing with a partner who doesn't push against you to make a frame. Driving 2 E90s back to back with it was an absolute revelation.

I agree that Sam's article has what we need to know written between the lines. That commitment to friction free and very low effort around town is the sad part. If we keep apologizing for it and heaping faint praise at it, then the terrorists have won.
The up-side is that you should be able to completely alter that input torque curve through software. The EPS programming we've seen so far focuses on "solving" the "problems" with hydraulic systems. The thing is, for enthusiasts, these aren't problems, they're desirable traits.

There's nothing inherent about an EPS system that requires it behave this way. With a hydraulic system, the effort is controlled by a spring operated valve. This spring is tuned to provide feedback based on the application. A weakly sprung valve will provide more assist. A stiffly sprung valve will provide less. Now, I'm simplifying greatly here, but I'm hoping this gets the idea across. The input effort in a hydraulic system naturally tracks the feedback from the front tires, because there's a spring directly between you and the front wheels that is providing the feedback loop.

EPS systems use a torque sensor instead of a spring. The input effort is fed to the steering assist computer, along with a TON of other data, such as steering input angle, speed, yaw, etc. We don't really know exactly what the input criteria are, but I've read somewhere that the computer factors in over 60 criteria. The result is this perfectly linear steering load-up. Numbness is engineered in to the product!

On the flip side, if you shift priorities, and you want to preserve steering feel, EPS has an advantage that hydraulic systems don't: switch off the power to the assist motor and you've got a manual rack. You'll have some additional drag from the electric motor that spins as you rotate the steering wheel, but that's no where near as much load as operating a hydraulic rack that has lost pressure.

What the engineers need to do is dial back the smoothing algorithms. Let the feedback from the wheels travel backward up the column. I believe they can do this, and the greater degree of variability allowed by the electronics will ultimately result in a superior driving experience.
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      01-22-2014, 03:37 PM   #62
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So disappointing that this car is so heavy: 3535 lbs (Auto), only 75 lbs lighter than a 435i. Unbelievable that a car such more smaller would weight almost the same. And it's so much heavier than the outgoing 135i....
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      01-22-2014, 06:04 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
On the flip side, if you shift priorities, and you want to preserve steering feel, EPS has an advantage that hydraulic systems don't: switch off the power to the assist motor and you've got a manual rack. You'll have some additional drag from the electric motor that spins as you rotate the steering wheel, but that's no where near as much load as operating a hydraulic rack that has lost pressure.
Would deactivating EPS on a permanent basis be a realistic and/or desirable option for those of us who want to retain a feeling of connection to the road? How would this be done?
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      01-22-2014, 06:09 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scanepa View Post
So disappointing that this car is so heavy: 3535 lbs (Auto), only 75 lbs lighter than a 435i. Unbelievable that a car such more smaller would weight almost the same. And it's so much heavier than the outgoing 135i....
M235i weights the same as 135i when identically equipped
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      01-22-2014, 11:38 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelwright View Post
M235i weights the same as 135i when identically equipped
Still disappointing...
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      01-23-2014, 01:56 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptt127
That commitment to friction free and very low effort around town is the sad part.
I'm loving the discussion above.

I questioned a BMW engineer about the inclusion of Servotronic type assists that reduce effort and feel at low speeds and his short answer is that they were responding to customer requests. He told me that when they used to send customer surveys out, the one overriding request was for lighter steering so that the cars would be easier to park.

Even as far back as the E39 M5 I questioned the inclusion of Servotronic assistance. It was also there in the E90 M3. Ironically, the non-M E90s were Servotronic free and had greater effort and meatiness even at low speeds and to me, they felt more satisfying as a result. They did not have the steering response or the precision of the M3, but they had better 'feel' at those everyday velocities. It's easy to forget this when hammering around a race track, but most of our daily driving is at low speeds and at light loads.

In other words, this is all our fault. The buyers cried. BMW responded. And remember, this commitment to lightness at low speeds happened well before BMW went EPS!

By the way, Porsche now offers 'power steering plus' with exactly the same intent as Servotronic. When I was at the Road Show, I asked a staff member if they could offer me a 'power steering minus' to increase effort. He didn't think I was very funny, but the other attendees did.

My final thought is that with EPS, they now do have the flexibility of having two entirely different steering tunes in the same car. One tune could feel exactly as guys like us would want it, and the other for the rest of the buyers. I haven't driven the C7 'Vette, but I hear that its steering changes quite dramatically depending on the sport driving mode selected.

I will reiterate again... for EPS uncertainties, please test out a Toyota GT86/FRS/BRZ. The car as a whole is not as fast or as powerful or grippy or refined or polished or dynamically accomplished as a BMW and it has a chainsaw for an engine, but feel that steering. It is satisfying and full of feedback and feel even at 5mph. You could almost drive this car blindfolded. I challenge any manufacturer to try this steering and tell me they it's not the most satisfying EPS in existence right now.

The technology is here to maintain great steering in our enthusiast cars. The only question is intent.
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