[Beef Supreme]

Originally Posted by speeddeacon

Wow, really? That's quite a statement. You are 100% correct about it sounding snobby. I would agree with you, perhaps, regarding a "Tuner Car" like a hot hatch, WRX STi or that ilk. That is a very youthful culture. But the Ford Focus RS and Volkswagen Golf R may be really good driver's cars and I might have to take it back if I did.

There are plenty of mature, highly compensated adults driving Mustangs and Camaros. They were a part of our youth way back when (OK, maybe not in mid 70's to mid 80's for the Mustang) just as they are to the some of the current generation of youth. I'm thankful for that. Honestly, I doubt many of them grow up saying, "when I'm all grown up and have a high paying job, I want to buy a BMW 2 Series." I could be wrong about that.

Our company President drives his Mustang to work everyday. One of our professionals drives a V6 Camaro. I drove a Shelby GT500 to work everyday for 4 years. Honestly though, most of the highly compensated professionals are driving SUVs these days. If you want to look the part of a professional, buy an X5 or Lexus, or maybe a 5 Series or an E class would suffice if you want to be more traditional. The only people I know who drive a 1 or 2 series, other than my BMW salesman who drives a 1M, are women. Evidently they have really good taste in driving machines.

I've owned multiple BMWs, including M cars, but none of them brought any attention to me. When I took a different job, I was concerned about the perception others might have of my 6 series, so I sold it and bought "just a Mustang" in the form a GT500. I don't think I ever filled its gas tank without someone coming over to look at it, talk about it, ask how much it cost, how fast it was and if I would rev the engine. I had much more anonymity in my 6 series. I guess everyone thought I was a snob. Perhaps I am because all the attention got really annoying at times in the Mustang.

You mention perception and then say you aren't a snob though. Some people don't make that disclaimer and it never ceases to amaze me how people perceive other people on the forums. On the Porsche boards, many view BMW owners as somehow being inferior, seeking only some sort of status but being basically ignorant about driving and cars in general. For example, I recently read on a Porsche forum, someone referring to the M2 or M4, I don't recall which, as being "only a BMW".

On this very board, I think it was the M3 forum, someone made the statement that anyone who chose a convertible over a coupe wasn't a real enthusiast because coupes were far superior and safer for high performance driving. He said he automatically assumed anyone in a convertible was a poser because convertibles were only for women. This led to a nice little reprimand about Miata racing series, Shelby Cobra's, Ferrari Spider's and even F1 and Indy cars. He then made another idiotic statement that at some point some cars are so fast the coupe/convertible argument doesn't apply. I think he had a test to study for perhaps because he never returned to the conversation.

If a person enjoys driving, they should buy what they prefer to spend on a car that thrills them each time they start the engine. If that is a track prepared Camaro 1LE or a Mustang GT with the track package, so be it. If it is a 2 Series, so be it. If it is an M2/3/4/5/6, that's great too. It would be a shame to miss the thrill and sound of that LS4 V8 because they chose a 228i just because it was a BMW. A person comfortable in their own skin doesn't buy a car based on how other people will perceive them, with the notable exception of not wanting to drive an expensive car that might give an undesirable impression of wealth. In that case the Camaro 1SS might be a better choice than a Cadillac CTS-V for example.

For me, I will buy what I like the most for the intended purpose. It could be a 240i, an M2, a 1SS with the 1LE package or ZL1 or maybe something I haven't even considered yet. Figuring it out is a big part of the fun for me.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not casting aspersions on Mustang or Camaro drivers. I've owned two Mustang GTs and they were likely the favorites of any cars I've owned. I'd love to have a 5.0 GT track car for the weekends. It doesn't change the fact that 90 percent of the Mustang drivers I see are under 25. Many people simply perceive them as teenager racer cars.

Like it or not, perceptions matter. I routinely meet with clients, and although I tend to think it's BS, they do make assumptions based on the car I drive. I'm strongly considering a 240 for my new car because of the great performance wrapped in a car that -- whether right or wrong -- presents a certain demeanor to clients.

[speeddeacon]

Originally Posted by Beef Supreme

Don't get me wrong. I'm not casting aspersions on Mustang or Camaro drivers. I've owned two Mustang GTs and they were likely the favorites of any cars I've owned. I'd love to have a 5.0 GT track car for the weekends. It doesn't change the fact that 90 percent of the Mustang drivers I see are under 25. Many people simply perceive them as teenager racer cars.

Like it or not, perceptions matter. I routinely meet with clients, and although I tend to think it's BS, they do make assumptions based on the car I drive. I'm strongly considering a 240 for my new car because of the great performance wrapped in a car that -- whether right or wrong -- presents a certain demeanor to clients.

Ahh, I certainly see your point there. I had a financial advisor once who always drove a Toyota Camry. I never could decide if that was good or bad, LOL. Was he just very responsible with money (good) or struggling to make a living (bad)? Part of me was glad to see it, another part wanted him to be driving something expensive.

I agree about the 240 also. I think it will be my next DD. I wanted to hold on to my wife's 335i but we needed to sell it to clear up some budget items so we could lease her new 750ix. Even though it was her car, it was such a joy to drive to work on those occasions. A 240i will be even better for me, particularly if I go with a RWD 6sp. Then a chargepipe, downpipe, catless exhaust and JB4 and I'll have all the street performance I crave.

[rjm98119]

I know this thread is getting long in the tooth, but I just sold my '14 Cayman S and in the process drove a lot of things, including a 2016 Camaro SS a few months ago (both auto and manual) and ultimately went with an M235 for a couple of years until things settle with the M2 (and I can test the 718 Porsches), so this might be something to help someone.

I know the Camaro is built on ATS platform, but while I liked the ATS I drove 2 years ago, I hated the Camaro. The beltline and visibility are WAY different, and though I can't swear to it, I think the seating position is, too.

To me, especially coming out of the Cayman, it felt like a giant, ponderous tank. I know it puts up good track numbers in some hands, but there's much more to the experience than numbers would suggest. I'm also not a large person, so the car feels a little outsized.

The SS was fast as all get out in a straight line, though, and sounds great. Feels a little cheap inside and out. I know journalists praise how much better than the interior is and, compared to my 1995 Camaro Z28 or 2000 Trans Am, it's true! But not up to standards of some of the imports or, say, Cadillac in their CTS. I guess that's to be expected for the price (though my M235 after discounts only penciled out a little more expensive than the higher up SS I was testing ).

In the end, they are WAY, WAY, WAY different cars, so you gotta get behind the wheel. If you like bigger cars and/or were seriously considering an M4, where they're more beefy and brutish (I don't mean that in a bad way... it is what it is) you should definitely at least try the SS. You might like it and save a load of cash.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by Beef Supreme

Don't get me wrong. I'm not casting aspersions on Mustang or Camaro drivers. I've owned two Mustang GTs and they were likely the favorites of any cars I've owned. I'd love to have a 5.0 GT track car for the weekends. It doesn't change the fact that 90 percent of the Mustang drivers I see are under 25. Many people simply perceive them as teenager racer cars.

Like it or not, perceptions matter. I routinely meet with clients, and although I tend to think it's BS, they do make assumptions based on the car I drive. I'm strongly considering a 240 for my new car because of the great performance wrapped in a car that -- whether right or wrong -- presents a certain demeanor to clients.

No doubt the car you drive says something about you. But are you actually going to lose clients or client contracts because you drive a Mustang/Camaro rather than a BMW?! Sure, they might think of you differently if you pulled up in a yellow Mustang or Camaro rather than a conservative white M240i, but is your business outcome going to be any different either way?

It actually could work the other way too - where some might consider you pretentious or snobby with the BMW, while the Mustang/Camaro might make you seem more practical and value-minded. Not everyone has a negative opinion of Mustang/Camaro owners.

[sgmpw]

Originally Posted by rjm98119

I know this thread is getting long in the tooth, but I just sold my '14 Cayman S and in the process drove a lot of things, including a 2016 Camaro SS a few months ago (both auto and manual) and ultimately went with an M235 for a couple of years until things settle with the M2 (and I can test the 718 Porsches), so this might be something to help someone.

I know the Camaro is built on ATS platform, but while I liked the ATS I drove 2 years ago, I hated the Camaro. The beltline and visibility are WAY different, and though I can't swear to it, I think the seating position is, too.

To me, especially coming out of the Cayman, it felt like a giant, ponderous tank. I know it puts up good track numbers in some hands, but there's much more to the experience than numbers would suggest. I'm also not a large person, so the car feels a little outsized.

The SS was fast as all get out in a straight line, though, and sounds great. Feels a little cheap inside and out. I know journalists praise how much better than the interior is and, compared to my 1995 Camaro Z28 or 2000 Trans Am, it's true! But not up to standards of some of the imports or, say, Cadillac in their CTS. I guess that's to be expected for the price (though my M235 after discounts only penciled out a little more expensive than the higher up SS I was testing ).

In the end, they are WAY, WAY, WAY different cars, so you gotta get behind the wheel. If you like bigger cars and/or were seriously considering an M4, where they're more beefy and brutish (I don't mean that in a bad way... it is what it is) you should definitely at least try the SS. You might like it and save a load of cash.

Thx for the post (everyone actually...) the Cayman is a little beyond the budget and practicality I need now but is definitely in my future. It helps to get the perspective of someone with similar tastes...now if I can just get my hands on the M240i order sheet...

[supernova72]

Originally Posted by rjm98119

I know this thread is getting long in the tooth, but I just sold my '14 Cayman S and in the process drove a lot of things, including a 2016 Camaro SS a few months ago (both auto and manual) and ultimately went with an M235 for a couple of years until things settle with the M2 (and I can test the 718 Porsches), so this might be something to help someone.

I know the Camaro is built on ATS platform, but while I liked the ATS I drove 2 years ago, I hated the Camaro. The beltline and visibility are WAY different, and though I can't swear to it, I think the seating position is, too.

To me, especially coming out of the Cayman, it felt like a giant, ponderous tank. I know it puts up good track numbers in some hands, but there's much more to the experience than numbers would suggest. I'm also not a large person, so the car feels a little outsized.

The SS was fast as all get out in a straight line, though, and sounds great. Feels a little cheap inside and out. I know journalists praise how much better than the interior is and, compared to my 1995 Camaro Z28 or 2000 Trans Am, it's true! But not up to standards of some of the imports or, say, Cadillac in their CTS. I guess that's to be expected for the price (though my M235 after discounts only penciled out a little more expensive than the higher up SS I was testing ).

In the end, they are WAY, WAY, WAY different cars, so you gotta get behind the wheel. If you like bigger cars and/or were seriously considering an M4, where they're more beefy and brutish (I don't mean that in a bad way... it is what it is) you should definitely at least try the SS. You might like it and save a load of cash.

Another Seattleite I see. Great writeup and I'll keep an eye out for you. Zip for me is 98116 (west seattle). Believe it or not I tested a Chevy SS (The sedan Aussie import car) with a 6MT prior to deciding on the M235i. The SS was fast and loved the V-8 sound but for now if I need that I'll take the 72 Nova out. Lol. Cheers.

[rjm98119]

Originally Posted by supernova72

Another Seattleite I see. Great writeup and I'll keep an eye out for you. Zip for me is 98116 (west seattle).

Seattle in the house! 98109 here. White/coral, actually left the chrome kidney's (vs black), kinda like 'em.

Originally Posted by supernova72

... if I need that I'll take the 72 Nova out. Lol. Cheers.

There ya go! My step-brother had a 70-something Nova that he worked on night and day and thing was insane.

[e46m3lol]

Don't really have a comparison between what the OP is asking but I thought I would share my kill video of a stock Camaro SS vs my fbo 228i. Not to brag but my 228 was faster than some FBO 235s until of course I blew the motor

[G-Mann]

Some really good deals on 2016 models right now. I checked locally and found several available for 9 to 10k off sticker. WOW!!

[GrayM235]

I like my M235, its more tame & refined, but I'd be driving a 2SS or SS 1LE if it wasn't for my wife and kids. That sweet LT1 with dual mode exhaust, mag shocks on an Alpha platform - the performance, sound, feel are on an entirely different level.... and it costs thousands less.

[sgmpw]

Originally Posted by GrayM235

I like my M235, its more tame & refined, but I'd be driving a 2SS or SS 1LE if it wasn't for my wife and kids. That sweet LT1 with dual mode exhaust, mag shocks on an Alpha platform - the performance, sound, feel are on an entirely different level.... and it costs thousands less.

Did you drive one? You're totally right on the 'gotta have it' aspects but the visibility/size are huge barriers - even now that they've made the deal even sweeter.
I'm (im)patiently waiting for my M240 to arrive...

[GrayM235]

Took 2 extended, 'livability' test drives (30-40min), plus another 2 'normal' test drives. <$43k, fully loaded 2SS 6mt. Fell in love with it, was ready to buy, only to have my hopes crushed by wife (hated it) & kids (couldn't fit). I did consider leaving them for a second

[G-Mann]

Originally Posted by GrayM235

Took 2 extended, 'livability' test drives (30-40min), plus another 2 'normal' test drives. <$43k, fully loaded 2SS 6mt. Fell in love with it, was ready to buy, only to have my hopes crushed by wife (hated it) & kids (couldn't fit). I did consider leaving them for a second

Ha ha,

This crazy pricing and stock availability is tempting me to take a test drive. Did I say 9 -10k off , I did not notice the additional discounts that bring it to 13k off sticker. I believe if you trade in a mustang you can get another 2k off. Insane.

http://www.friendlychevy.com/new/Che...a1c3b05f35.htm

[Kolyan2k]

I like BMW styling. I tried to like new Mustang but couldnt. Both Mustang and Camaro always used to look like shit inside and out until recently. While they both look nice, I think BMW and Audi are way ahead in this game (MB got nice designs in new models too). New Corvette on the other hand has killer looks

PS. I am talking about just some BMWs and Audis, I dont like 3s and 5s sedans, A3s and A4s are nothing special as well. 2-seires looks nice, M4, S5 etc

[XutvJet]

I like muscle cars and totally respect the new Camaro's amazing performance. BUT you couldn't pay me to own a current gen Camaro. The current gen Mustang is far more cleanly styled and with the times. The Camaro looks a life sized Hot Wheels car. Apparently I'm not alone in this as the Camaro's sales are downright terrible now. Chevy really should have taken a new styling direction with the car and gone cleaner, sleek, and less gawdy.

[Dylan86]

Was behind a new ZLT/LTZ (or w.e it's called) yesterday with the track package, rear spoiler etc. It was nice sounding and looked cool in it's orange scheme. But I don't think I could live with that car every day. Visibility looks horrid just being behind it.. It's just an unpractical looking car, and more of a "sports" car IMO than an every day sports coupe, which is why I grabbed the m235 vs an M car.

It may have some great performance, at a lower cost than a German equivalent, but it'll never feel as classy, look as classy or hold it's visual character like a German car, IMO. It'll always be a Camaro, or a Mustang, which also seems to get a major facelift every few years for some reason. Something like the 2 series or 3 series coupe can fly under the radar for the most part, and in some cases outperform most domestic coupes that scream "performance sports car".

Flash back 16 years. When I see a '00 E46 coupe, I still see a modern'ish German car that has some class, style, and sportiness. When I see an '00 Camaro, I puke. My $.02

D

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

Something like the 2 series or 3 series coupe can fly under the radar for the most part, and in some cases outperform most domestic coupes that scream "performance sports car".

You definitely fly under the radar with a 2 or 3 Series compared to a Camaro or Mustang. But outperform them? I don't think so.

Especially the Camaro. The SS 1LE just beat the M2 in Car and Driver's Lightning Lap, same track, same day, same drivers. No excuses for the BMW. It wasn't even close - the Camaro beat it by 7 seconds. The M235i/M240i would be even further behind. I don't see any case where the 2 or 3 Series will outperform the current 6th generation Camaro, unless you're talking about the V6 model.

[augerpro]

Originally Posted by wjones14

The SS 1LE just beat the M2 in Car and Driver's Lightning Lap, same track, same day, same drivers.

It wasn't the same drivers. The guy who drove the M2 was some nitwit shuffling the steering wheel in the corners. The guy who drove the Camaro looked like the best of the 3 drivers that day.

[ORIGIN M.]

The Bone-Marrow is huge!

No thanks !!

[Rayscott]

I could have gotten a 2016 Vette for a little more than I paid for my 228ix loaded vert. I don't like the Camaro. The Vette can hang with the Camaro and is very nice inside and out (finally) but I don't care about that. I don't need all of that power so the 228 suits me better. It is simply a matter of choice. At my age gobs of power and a loud exhaust are not important anymore. My wife loves to drive it and so do I. IMO that is what matters most to us and why there are choices.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by augerpro

It wasn't the same drivers. The guy who drove the M2 was some nitwit shuffling the steering wheel in the corners. The guy who drove the Camaro looked like the best of the 3 drivers that day.

Oh I see. So had they switched drivers, the M2 might have overcome the 7 second deficit and beat the Camaro?

Let me ask this - the Camaro was within a second of the Cayman GT4. Was the same nitwit driving the Cayman?

[augerpro]

Originally Posted by wjones14

Oh I see. So had they switched drivers, the M2 might have overcome the 7 second deficit and beat the Camaro?

I didn't say that. I'm just pointing out the facts. It is unfortunate they used 3 different drivers with what appeared to me to be different skill levels.