[Spitfi-r]

Originally Posted by Ramos

It will never catch up to hydronic because it will always be simulated/fake/filtered feedback

It's like saying video games will catch up to real driving !!

I disagree, it's not steer by wire. The steering wheel is still connected directly to the front wheels. They just have to improve how the assist works and is programmed.

[DanG]

I do prefer the steering in my M3, but this isn't too bad. It is a lot better than when I had a 3 series loaner.

[grant]

Originally Posted by Spitfi-r

I disagree, it's not drive by wire. The steering wheel is still connected directly to the front wheels. They just have to improve how the assist works and is programmed.

I am not yet convinced that EPS has the inherent ability to be as natural and feelsome as the best hydraulic systems (not to mention manual), no matter how it's programmed. I think the added friction and inertia of the motor is problematic.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by Spitfi-r

I disagree, it's not drive by wire. The steering wheel is still connected directly to the front wheels. They just have to improve how the assist works and is programmed.

I would actually argue that even by-wire steering could one day be indistinguishable from unassisted rack and pinion steering. Our ability to simulate reality is always improving--it's just a matter of time.

[grant]

Originally Posted by danimal

I would actually argue that even by-wire steering could one day be indistinguishable from unassisted rack and pinion steering. Our ability to simulate reality is always improving--it's just a matter of time.

I'm sure you and your robot wife will really enjoy that car some day

[danimal]

Originally Posted by grant

I'm sure you and your robot wife will really enjoy that car some day

Guess I watched too much STTNG in college

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by grant

I'm sure you and your robot wife will really enjoy that car some day

Lol

[grant]

Originally Posted by danimal

Guess I watched too much STTNG in college

Indeed

(For anyone else like me who didn't know, STTNG is Star Trek the Next Generation).

[bernstem]

Originally Posted by grant

I'm sure you and your robot wife will really enjoy that car some day

Hey, I like my robot wife. She doesn't complain, always has dinner ready and likes to do the same hobbies as me. You should seriously think about getting one.

[Ritz42]

Originally Posted by grant

I am not yet convinced that EPS has the inherent ability to be as natural and feelsome as the best hydraulic systems (not to mention manual), no matter how it's programmed. I think the added friction and inertia of the motor is problematic.

Have you ever driven an S2000? They had probably the best EPS system I have ever experienced. Perfect feedback, weighted just right, natural response. Frankly I'd say that the s2000 EPS from the early 2000s provided more feedback than some BMW hydraulic setups.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Ramos

It will never catch up to hydronic because it will always be simulated/fake/filtered feedback

It's like saying video games will catch up to real driving !!

I have to disagree with you on that.
The Honda S2000 had electric assist steering and that car had excellent feel.
The Acura NSX also had electric assist and it too had great feel.

Electric assist can be tuned. Plus the actual steering rack is a primary aspect to how the steering feels. That too will become updated in future versions, along with better programming and application of electric assist.
BMW has even updated the steering rack and reprogrammed the electric assist in the F30 3 series.
I'll guess that those tweaks have been applied to the 2 series as well.
My 335i Msport was in the first wave of Msports to the US, but the rack and programming changes came a few months after I got my 335i Msport. My 335i has had software updates that include the newer programming and there was a change in steering heft. Feel remains though as the rack is still the same unit in my 3.

Electric steering is not drive by wire. DBW is completely artificial as there is no direct connection between the steering wheel and the front tires.
With non DBW eletric assist, the "assisting" is done by an electric motor instead of a hydraulic or electric pump. There is still a direct connection to the wheels even with electric assist.
I hope we NEVER go to DBW steering or braking.

[Ramos]

Totally agree, I will never buy a car with DBW steering or braking if I have a choice or can help it, but I'm afraid it's coming

MB had DBW brakes on the SL (failed experience and they stopped it) and Infiniti has DBW steering on the G37 with universally horrible reviews

[Researcher]

Just like a jet fighter with advance fly by wire electronics will never feel like a WW2 fighter. But technology must move forward. Purists can fly the WW2 plane; give me the F22 fighter!

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by Researcher

Just like a jet fighter with advance fly by wire electronics will never feel like a WW2 fighter. But technology must move forward. Purists can fly the WW2 plane; give me the F22 fighter!

The question is not technology moving forward, but how you want it to move forward, and what is fun. If we're talking airplanes, my most unforgettable flying experiences have been in a sailplane, not in a 777 (as a passenger). And the sailplane was not a low tech machine.

A so called 'purist' isn't anti-technology, they want interaction in the sensory experience of piloting/driving whatever craft. For example, a reliable 10k redlining NA engine made with exotic materials, instead of investing in drive by wire crap.

So yeah, give me a WW2 inspired plane built with modern materials, and standards of reliabilty, over a overly complicated, expensive F22.

[Squddie]

Originally Posted by Researcher

Just like a jet fighter with advance fly by wire electronics will never feel like a WW2 fighter. But technology must move forward. Purists can fly the WW2 plane; give me the F22 fighter!

FWIW, the Infinity Q50 felt better to me than the 4-series and that one has an actual fly-by-wire system.

BMW screwed up big time, IMHO, although I think Audi is worse with the support curve they picked.

[Bahuba]

After taking my M235 on a 1000Km road trip last weekend that included ~100km of some of the twistiest roads I've ever driven on, I am very impressed with the steering feel and variable response. I'm also really appreciating the dual nature of this car: comfort mode for the highways and sport+ for the twisties.

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by Bahuba

After taking my M235 on a 1000Km road trip last weekend that included ~100km of some of the twistiest roads I've ever driven on, I am very impressed with the steering feel and variable response. I'm also really appreciating the dual nature of this car: comfort mode for the highways and sport+ for the twisties.

I agree, I love the 2 diff personality of the car

[Lucky13]

I drove my son's E93 yesterday for the first time in 3 months since I got my M235 and it felt like driving a tank at low speeds. The M235 steering is better at low speeds, maybe not as much feedback all the time but driving back to back I don't miss the hydraulic steering. I actually like the electric steering a lot in my wife's X1 28 sdrive M Sport even though people bash it. I think people bash it because there is a perception hydraulic is so much better but not always.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

I drove my son's E93 yesterday for the first time in 3 months since I got my M235 and it felt like driving a tank at low speeds. The M235 steering is better at low speeds, maybe not as much feedback all the time but driving back to back I don't miss the hydraulic steering. I actually like the electric steering a lot in my wife's X1 28 sdrive M Sport even though people bash it. I think people bash it because there is a perception hydraulic is so much better but not always.

Same experience for me driving my E90 for the first time after a few days in my new 228i. Steering felt crazy heavy at slow speeds. At freeway speeds, it felt just right but it's hard for me to say it was noticeably better than the 2's. I haven't driven them back-to-back in the twisties. That would be a better test.

[dwvcfii]

I laugh when you guys complain about modern BMWs and their "heavy" steering feel. You have no idea what "heavy" steering feel is. I grew up driving cars with manual steering racks...with feel so heavy that you actually had to move the car before you could turn the wheel with any realistic force.

You know what got me to buy a BMW for the first time almost 20 years ago? The fact that its steering was "heavy" and precise -- everything that the steering on the average domestic vehicle at the time was not.

Please stop encouraging BMW to lighten the steering feel on these cars. It's already too light. Can't turn the wheel at low speeds? Seriously? Take off the skirt you pansies.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by dwvcfii

I laugh when you guys complain about modern BMWs and their "heavy" steering feel. You have no idea what "heavy" steering feel is. I grew up driving cars with manual steering racks...with feel so heavy that you actually had to move the car before you could turn the wheel with any realistic force...Can't turn the wheel at low speeds? Seriously? Take off the skirt you pansies.

Did you also have to walk to school uphill both ways through mud, rivers, and quicksand?

Just to clarify my opinion, I'm not saying the E90's heavy steering at low speeds is bad, it just really surprised me. After driving the E90 for 7 years, I never really thought the steering was overly heavy (except when I was healing from a broken wrist and trying to park one handed), but after driving my new 228i for a couple days then jumping back in my E90, I suddenly found myself going, whoa, this is so. much. heavier.

(Incidentally, the shift effort on my E90 is also much heavier, but the brakes, not so much...when I first applied the brakes, I almost threw myself through the windshield they are so overboosted. The brakes are thankfully much firmer on the F22, so at least they are going in the right direction with that.)

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by danimal

Did you also have to walk to school uphill both ways through mud, rivers, and quicksand?

Just to clarify my opinion, I'm not saying the E90's heavy steering at low speeds is bad, it just really surprised me. After driving the E90 for 7 years, I never really thought the steering was overly heavy (except when I was healing from a broken wrist and trying to park one handed), but after driving my new 228i for a couple days then jumping back in my E90, I suddenly found myself going, whoa, this is so. much. heavier.

(Incidentally, the shift effort on my E90 is also much heavier, but the brakes, not so much...when I first applied the brakes, I almost threw myself through the windshield they are so overboosted. The brakes are thankfully much firmer on the F22, so at least they are going in the right direction with that.)

I didn't have to walk uphill BOTH ways, just one way.
But I did have to walk to school.
Now, kids are picked up by a buss even if they live within walking distance.
Progress, I guess.

There is nothing wrong with electric assist technology.
It has the potential to give various drivers different levels of assist.
The problem is BMW's implementation of the technology, and that's a rarity with BMW, or it used to be.

The failure is in the tuning of the system, in terms of steering heft/effort.
That can be dialed in and BMW does give us 2 levels we can choose, though not completely independent of other adjustable driver items, and that sucks.
The main issue is the actual steering feel, more so, how the driver feels what is going on with the tires at the front.
That has more to do with the steering rack and system more than the electric assist of the steering effort.
The new steering racks and steering system feels less connected, at least it does to those of us who really liked how BMW's steering used to feel.
My 2003 325i had sublime steering and feel.
My 2013 335i not so much. Yes, it's accurate and direct and effective, but it's also disconnected and numb in comparison.

I'm sure it'll get better. If not, then at least make a different steering system for the sport/Msport versions.
I might even pay extra for it, maybe.