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      01-31-2014, 09:33 PM   #1
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Why can't small cars be top of the line?

Am I the only person who is pulling their hair out about manufactures like BMW and Audi refusing to make top of the line small cars?

The 1M < M3 < M5

Who decided that bigger is better?

I would pay $120,000 for an M2 with the best possible interior trim, exterior trim, and performance in the BMW brand.

Seriously. BMW has actual people in it's company saying "No let's not give the M2 an alcantara roof because that will make the M4 grand coupe look bad!", "No it can't have ceramic brakes those are only for the M3 or better!", "No we must cheapen the headlights to make it look worse".

There are serious executives at BMW making serious design choices that are all centered around making their cars less appealing. It makes me want to throw up.

Here's a better idea:


BMW M2 $54000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

BMW M3 $57000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

BMW M4 $58000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

BMW M4 Grand Coupe $60,000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

As someone who likes smaller more tossable cars I really don't appreciate the dumbing down of smaller cars. Small does not mean bad BMW.
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      01-31-2014, 10:13 PM   #2
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While I don't disagree, it comes down to perception. And, we in the USA have it different than in Europe. In Europe, BMW, MB, Audi are all full-line cars, and you can get a plebeian 5-series, E-series, or A6 that might work well in taxi service, but you cannot buy those here. The (misguided) thought that the 'higher' series car must cost more and offer more amenities is just ingrained in the USA, where in Europe, they have grown up over generations with the realization that you can have a 5-series BMW with cloth interior, a 4-cylinder engine without a sunroof or many options that doesn't necessarily cost a fortune.

Until we get a world view and lose some of our snobbishness, the years of building up BMW, MB and Audi as luxury cars will mandate bigger gets the better toys. That nobody 'wants' to buy a 5-series and have their neighbor buy one that costs $40K less...it just dilutes their perceived status and value of the thing - they want the exclusiveness that has been built into the brand's position in the marketplace, whether deserved or not.
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      01-31-2014, 11:39 PM   #3
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You want a small sports car, go to Porsche if money is no object .. But to your point even they restrict the cayman not to overstep the bigger 911
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      02-01-2014, 01:08 AM   #4
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if im gonna pay $120,000 for an M2(or any small sports car), I would rather buy porshe
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      02-01-2014, 01:24 AM   #5
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I do agree with Legion5 in the sense that a car like BMW, Audi and MB can easily use prime materials in their smaller cars. Look at the 2 series example, it's way better built now "material wise" than its predecessor the 1 series coupe, this is a proof that it can be done, and it could be done even better. A perfectly built 2 series won't compete with a perfectly built 4 series. They are different cars for different budgets. Build quality has nothing to do with options though, I want my car to be perfectly built! rattles free and that has nothing to do with options and features. As Jad said, in Europe and here in my country, one can order a stripped from almost all option BMW, its a good thing because that way we can afford buying a bigger engine without selling our kidneys! In the US. It's no necessary because car cost is ridiculously cheap. m235 here costs 90,000! With that money you guys in the US can buy an m6 no???
I always take Apple computer as an example, look at what they do, no product is less perfect than the other, their slowest smallest portable is as perfect and superbly designed and built as their top-of-the-line beast. They pay attention to the smallest detail, even a power adapter should look awesome to apple designer. It's a philosophy thing. I think BMW is on the way to get there, probably after one or 2 car generations.
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      02-01-2014, 08:11 AM   #6
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Legion5.....I hear where you are coming from. Echoing others, however, I think much has to do with the market. In Taiwan, a f30 318i retails for $65000, and a 335i goes for $105000. In the US,the difference from a 328i to what a m3 would cost makes me wonder why everyone doesn't buy a m3! Well, more seriously, the price difference between a 335 to m3 in the US seems insubstantial.

The other issue, aside from market factors and marketing could be manufacturing costs. The assembly cost of 2 series is probably quite similar to that of a 3 series, yet that cost is spread over a smaller base price. Adding more options and variability to the manufacturing process would increase costs even more.

Just my two cents. I'm all for awesome small cars too!
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      02-01-2014, 08:52 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Am I the only person who is pulling their hair out about manufactures like BMW and Audi refusing to make top of the line small cars?

The 1M < M3 < M5

Who decided that bigger is better?

I would pay $120,000 for an M2 with the best possible interior trim, exterior trim, and performance in the BMW brand.

Seriously. BMW has actual people in it's company saying "No let's not give the M2 an alcantara roof because that will make the M4 grand coupe look bad!", "No it can't have ceramic brakes those are only for the M3 or better!", "No we must cheapen the headlights to make it look worse".

There are serious executives at BMW making serious design choices that are all centered around making their cars less appealing. It makes me want to throw up.

Here's a better idea:


BMW M2 $54000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

BMW M3 $57000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

BMW M4 $58000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

BMW M4 Grand Coupe $60,000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

As someone who likes smaller more tossable cars I really don't appreciate the dumbing down of smaller cars. Small does not mean bad BMW.



Totally agree. I really don't like big cars unless it is a BMW 7 Series or an Audi Q7.

If we had both M2 and M4 with same engine, same amount of CF lightweight saving (M2 being smaller will obviously be +100 kg lighter), I'd pay same price for the smaller. If both 981 and 991 had the same 3.8l Boxer 6 but were priced the same I'd get the 981. The "extra" you get in these performance cars is so minimal (5 cm more rear leg room for example) that I really don't care.

I also hate that BMW did not make the 2 Series lower. Why could they make it as high as a 6 Series?

I like to be tight in a car, really wish small cars had all the good things of the bigger cars. I have the same problem with smartphones. Why can't 3.5-4 inch smartphones get the best tech? I'd pay a premium price, but I don't want the big screens. For me bigger is not better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rori zahr View Post
I always take Apple computer as an example, look at what they do, no product is less perfect than the other, their slowest smallest portable is as perfect and superbly designed and built as their top-of-the-line beast. They pay attention to the smallest detail, even a power adapter should look awesome to apple designer. It's a philosophy thing. I think BMW is on the way to get there, probably after one or 2 car generations.
No, BMW will never do that. Proof for that is that the very best BMW to come (M3/M4) don't have full LED lighting, while Audi A4, and C Class have. BMW will only get that at facelift.

Last edited by BMW269; 02-01-2014 at 08:59 AM..
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      02-01-2014, 11:26 AM   #8
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Why doesn't a 70" HDTV cost less than a 24", makes about as much sense as this thread.
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      02-01-2014, 02:40 PM   #9
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Totally agree with the OPs point. Nearly wandered to porsche just for this reason. Small should still be same fut and finish!
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      02-01-2014, 03:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky13 View Post
Why doesn't a 70" HDTV cost less than a 24", makes about as much sense as this thread.
Even that scenario works in this context. A 70" 720p no frills tv could cost less than a 24" 4K, 3D CAPABLE, smart tv that also massages your feet. Just because it is smaller doesn't mean that it necessarily has to be cheaper or that it should have less features.
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      02-01-2014, 03:36 PM   #11
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But what about the price structure of the rest of the range? 120d and 420d and 520d all the same price?
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      02-01-2014, 04:58 PM   #12
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This thread makes no sense. Sorry! lol
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      02-02-2014, 11:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky13 View Post
Why doesn't a 70" HDTV cost less than a 24", makes about as much sense as this thread.
The primary selling feature of an HDTV is it's size. The primary selling feature of a luxury sports car, it's it's luxury and how it drives.

When is the last time a car enthusiast said: My car has 80% more horsepower than yours, half the stopping distance, twice the downforce, and 3 inches more wrist room on the armrest in the back seat!

When is the last time a designer said: My car is more beautiful than yours, the wheels are nicer, the material on the interior is hand picked Australian ash wood, the leather is woven to create a texture, and it has 4 inches more neck room!

It's stupid.

Apple has figured out how to make products properly. Both the iPad Mini Retina and iPad Air have the exact same finish, the exact same materials, the exact same resolution, and the exact same processor.

That's the right way to make two differently sized products.


Quote:
Originally Posted by M.barnes View Post
But what about the price structure of the rest of the range? 120d and 420d and 520d all the same price?

No, the PROFIT margin would be the same. The quality, fit finish, performance, and optional amenities would be the same. You'd just pay slightly more for the bigger car. Same idea as an iPad an an iPad mini Retina, or an iPad 2 vs iPad mini.
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      02-03-2014, 12:22 AM   #14
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Well I for one wouldn't buy a 2 series if it had all the equipment of a 4 series and generated the same margins as a 4 series as it would cost pretty much the same as a 4 series and the extra space / size would be a benefit worth paying the extra £1k for
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      02-03-2014, 12:32 AM   #15
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I agree, I don't see why 2er just doesn't get an individual treatment.
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      02-03-2014, 02:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.barnes View Post
Well I for one wouldn't buy a 2 series if it had all the equipment of a 4 series and generated the same margins as a 4 series as it would cost pretty much the same as a 4 series and the extra space / size would be a benefit worth paying the extra £1k for
Yes, but 2 Series would be smaller and lighter, and thus quicker and faster.
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      02-03-2014, 01:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rori zahr View Post
I do agree with Legion5 in the sense that a car like BMW, Audi and MB can easily use prime materials in their smaller cars. Look at the 2 series example, it's way better built now "material wise" than its predecessor the 1 series coupe, this is a proof that it can be done, and it could be done even better. .
I am not sure why you say the 2 is way better 'material wise'. I can't order the 2 with the same dark grey wood my 135 has and for me the additional matte chrome plastic bezels and details only add fussiness.

If, like Porsche, BMW had a nice list of added leather, cool stitching, special paint, etc I would be the first to add special touches. I would also happily pay to have factory LSD included, a performance boost (incl. bigger intercooler), lighter flywheel, how about carbon fiber panels, exhaust, etc.

Finally, what idiot came up with active sound? It may be fine with some though for those that do NOT want it they bury it into the settings along with unlock 1 door of 2, 1 blink or 3, and other preferences. PLEASE.
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      02-03-2014, 03:08 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Am I the only person who is pulling their hair out about manufactures like BMW and Audi refusing to make top of the line small cars?

The 1M < M3 < M5

Who decided that bigger is better?

I would pay $120,000 for an M2 with the best possible interior trim, exterior trim, and performance in the BMW brand.

Seriously. BMW has actual people in it's company saying "No let's not give the M2 an alcantara roof because that will make the M4 grand coupe look bad!", "No it can't have ceramic brakes those are only for the M3 or better!", "No we must cheapen the headlights to make it look worse".

There are serious executives at BMW making serious design choices that are all centered around making their cars less appealing. It makes me want to throw up.

Here's a better idea:


BMW M2 $54000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

BMW M3 $57000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

BMW M4 $58000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

BMW M4 Grand Coupe $60,000 - Profit Margin $10,000

0-60 3.7 seconds - Nurbergring Time 7:20 - Top of the Line Exterior and Interior, all features.

As someone who likes smaller more tossable cars I really don't appreciate the dumbing down of smaller cars. Small does not mean bad BMW.
Hear what you're saying dude - like BMW won't put the jazzy new multi-function display on their 1, 2, 3, 4 series, as it's for "upper models" only. Pah, how much is a 520d compared to say a 3/435i/d? And tell that to someone paying $$$ (or £££, coz I'm in the UK!) for a new M4! *breathe*
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      02-03-2014, 04:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uke92dude View Post
Hear what you're saying dude - like BMW won't put the jazzy new multi-function display on their 1, 2, 3, 4 series, as it's for "upper models" only. Pah, how much is a 520d compared to say a 3/435i/d? And tell that to someone paying $$$ (or £££, coz I'm in the UK!) for a new M4! *breathe*
+1... Preach!
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      02-03-2014, 06:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Who decided that bigger is better?
The market.

Bottom line is that there aren't enough people like you to support that market segment. People who spend more want bigger. It's a shame, but it's a market reality.

For $120,000, it seems you really could have what you want though. When the M2 comes to market, the MSRP should leave you plenty of room to send the car to a very reputable customizer to get what you want.

Look on the bright side though, the overweight tide seems to be turning. BMW has openly stated that the HP wars are over and they're going to focus on bringing weight down. They've made big investments to support those statements.
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      02-04-2014, 12:39 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeJ. View Post
I am not sure why you say the 2 is way better 'material wise'. I can't order the 2 with the same dark grey wood my 135 has and for me the additional matte chrome plastic bezels and details only add fussiness.

If, like Porsche, BMW had a nice list of added leather, cool stitching, special paint, etc I would be the first to add special touches. I would also happily pay to have factory LSD included, a performance boost (incl. bigger intercooler), lighter flywheel, how about carbon fiber panels, exhaust, etc.

Finally, what idiot came up with active sound? It may be fine with some though for those that do NOT want it they bury it into the settings along with unlock 1 door of 2, 1 blink or 3, and other preferences. PLEASE.
Did you see it Georges? The car has better quality interior, way better, I mean the dashboard, the console the seats... and yes, sport-line got stitching and it's beautiful, in our 1 series we got it only with the 1M! the AC and radio panels are made of hi-res screens, the navigator is hi-res... it's a totally different cabin.
As I said in my post, I had my car sitting next to the 2 and both were sitting next to a 4 series. 4 and 2 series use same cabin material. our 1 series feels too old and cheaper compared to those cabins.
As for the sound, I don't know how it sounds being inside, but listening to the 2 series "M235i" mufflers is a different story, I can tell you, your neighbours won't be happy at all :-) it barks like a mad buldog:-)))
PS: I still LOVE how the 1 series drives, can't wait to test drive the M235
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      02-04-2014, 01:04 AM   #22
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i never learned marketing or s/t money stuff but you say
"BMW M2 $54000 - Profit Margin $10,000 ".
what about the money BMW put for develop. they need to sell the car to at least make that up. they can price the car what ever want. but they are looking for the right price to maximise the profit.
something like this could be the reason BMW, Audi and MB doesn't make $$$$small car
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