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      12-22-2017, 11:22 AM   #89
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absolutely NOT. I love my 6 spd. Won't live without one ever. Lived in NYC and now SFO.
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      12-22-2017, 12:27 PM   #90
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As stated by Maurizio Reggiani, Director of Research and Development at Lamborghini--Its about power and control. Your leg wont do it and you cant control or use the power efficiently--

Lamborghini R&D Chief Says Stick Shifts Are Dead


Lamborghinis are supposed to be about raw emotion: the scream of a V12 engine, the thrill of mile-wide tires scrambling for grip, the joy of driving something built without a single care thrown toward convenience, practicality, or the rigors of everyday humdrum life.


You'd think a manual transmission would fit the formula perfectly.

But at the Frankfurt Auto Show last week, R&T sat down with Maurizio Reggiani, Director of Research and Development at Lamborghini. And while the Lamborghini news at the show was the introduction of the Huracán LP 610-4 Spyder, we couldn't help asking Mr. Reggiani a question that's been weighing on our minds: Is the dream of a manual-transmission Lamborghini dead?

"Unfortunately I must say yes," he told us. "All the systems that are integrated in the car need to have a dialog with one another. The clutch is one of the fuses of the system, whether you're engaging or disengaging the torque. This creates a hole in the communication between what the engine is able to provide and how the car reacts to the power of the engine. For this reason, unfortunately, I must say I am sure that in a premium supersports car like the Huracán, we will only do a semiautomatic.

"Unfortunately, it's the demand of the control of the chassis," he continued. "If you want to control the chassis, you must control the power. If you want to control the power, the clutch must be under the control of the brain of the car, not your brain."

This decision wasn't easy, and Mr. Reggiani understands the yearning among traditionalists for a three-pedal Lamborghini. But he brings up a very good point about modern manual transmissions, one that doesn't get discussed very often among three-pedal evangelists: Today's manual transmissions aren't the pure, directly-connected driver's experience you think they are.

It all comes down to the mechanics of what happens when you push the clutch pedal. "Remember, when you put a servo system between your feet and the clutch, you have already put a filter in there. For me, the most pure expression of the manual transmission is when with your foot you push all the load that is necessary to disengage the clutch."

So when people pining for manual transmissions hold up today's three-pedal sports cars as standard bearers of purity, it puzzles Mr. Reggiani. "In all the latest manual transmissions, there is a servo that reduces the load [of the clutch pedal]," he explains. "If we want to talk about the purist [experience], we must go back 20 years, not 10 years, because already these filters were in place.

Then there's the practical side. "I've been working for Lamborghini for 20 years. I started at the time of the Diablo, [which had] a clutch without a servo. You needed 40 kilograms of force to disengage the clutch. At that time, we were making 450 N m of torque. Now we are at 690. It's a problem to manage the closing point of the clutch. If you have hesitation, with this torque you'll burn the clutch immediately.

"And unfortunately not everybody can be a super expert, but everybody wants to buy the car and nobody wants to appear stupid. For this, you must put the servo in there, and if you put the servo in there you disengage the really mechanical feeling between you and the engine."

In other words, if you want a Lamborghini with power like the 740-hp Aventador LP750-4 SV, you're gonna have to settle for a transmission that's smarter than you. As for Mr. Reggiani? When he wants to get that purist mechanical feel, he hops in his 1966 Alfa Romeo Duetto, with a manual transmission and no servos in sight.
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      12-22-2017, 01:59 PM   #91
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I read this Lamborghini R&D Chief interview a long while ago. I do not agree with him about this "servo" thing and it's lack of driver engagement regarding the late model MT driving experience. I have no idea what a "servo" means to him, but from what he described, it appears he's talking about hydraulic assistance on the clutch. MTs have used this incredibly simple, cheap, and effective setup for decades and decades to reduce pedal effort. Lots of clutch pedal assemblies also use helper springs on the pedal assembly to reduce clutch pedal effort. Everything else that's typically incorporated on 1990s and later MTs is mostly there to reduce NVH. Things like dual mass flywheels and self-adjusting clutches come to mind as well as lots of bushings and vibration damping material on the shifter assembly and/or cable shifter actuation. There's also the downshifting rev matching feature that many late model MTs employee, but in most cars, you can turn that off.

Lamborghini (and every other super car maker) got rid of the MT because most of its owners are not driving enthusiasts and wouldn't be bothered driving a MT. Plus, when you've got a car with such massive acceleration potential and a driver that's inexperienced, of course an auto is a better choice. Also, autos are generally more reliable because the automaker can design in systems to keep the user from doing stupid, transmission killing actions. This is largely why most automakers push autos and as well as to cut costs. They tout better acceleration and mpgs as ways to entice buyers into getting on board with autos.

In the M235, the MT driving experience is far from raw. There's lots of stuff employed to make the experience comfortable and to an extent, somewhat muted. I've owned lots of manuals over the years and I find it quite good for a sport/luxury car. Adding a M Performance shifter adds some additional feel and directness and "snick" sounds. An Ultimate Clutch Pedal can greatly improve pedal feel and weight. You can add a single mass flywheel for more response, at the expenses of some drivetrain noise and vibration. You can add stiffer transmission bushings and an aftermarket shift assembly. All these mods can increase the rawness, almost to sub-1990s cars levels if that's what you want.

If people demanded and bought more manuals, then automakers would definitely make more of them. Companies like Porsche recognize that keeping the manual improves it's brand image and they still sell well, especially in expensive premier models.

Not all of us care about all out speed/acceleration and we welcome the involvement. When you go to Cars and Coffee, take note of the comments when people see a manual and the automatic variant. Even a manual M235 draws lots of approving comments and even surprise because many have never seen one or didn't know it was an option. That's saying A LOT.
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      12-22-2017, 03:46 PM   #92
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Mr. Reggiani is making excuses. The whole clutch pedal argument is ridiculous. It's about having the left foot and right hand doing something vs. nothing at all. It's about being in full control of everything the car is doing, staying engaged, and enjoying the challenge of executing a perfect shift while still doing all the other little things right. Driving an automatic sports car is like trying to play basketball with a 8' hoop. Where's the fun in that? I like the hoop to be where it should be, even if I'm < 6' tall and white.
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      12-23-2017, 12:33 AM   #93
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I dont need 'approval' of others to enjoy a car. The manual vs dct/auto is a simple personal choice. The article makes interesting points about power and management of it. Ive owned both manual exotics and others, now have an auto-8 M235 and a DCT M2. My first DCT. Its a very engaging drive both in an 'auto' setting and in manual.

It is interesting to see this debate and how personal it is. Sometimes too personal. Its just driving and we all make that work for ourselves. Im quite glad I chose to not buy manual this time and try something new with my M2. I noticed it says M2 not M2DCT or M2manual. Again for those who think less of me that their problem LOL. Not everyone wants what you want or drives as you do.

The auto makers are market driven, if manuals go away it is not their fault. World turns.
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      12-23-2017, 09:11 AM   #94
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The only thing I regret is that my fiance drives a MT way smoother than me, but she lived in Germany for a lot of years ... so that is my excuse ha!

No, absolutely no regrets! I love every single shift that I make ... this car is just pure happiness!
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      12-23-2017, 11:01 AM   #95
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I love the 6MT in the F22 overall. My one issue is that I find it too easy to accidentally engage reverse instead of first gear. Like at a stoplight if im distracted for a sec and the light turns green I have to quickly put the car in gear and go, however if I try to do this too quickly theres a chance I overshoot 1st and go right into reverse. The other cars I've owned didnt have this issue since to shift into reverse id have to push straight down on the shifter (88 RX-7) or press a trigger on the backside of the shifter (2013 Elantra).
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      12-23-2017, 02:10 PM   #96
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^ I've done this a couple of times with my 6MT. Requiring a more positive action by the driver seems like it would have been a good design decision. Chalk another one up to cost cutting?
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      12-23-2017, 04:12 PM   #97
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I've been reading in this thread and other places all about this dreaded rev hang.. I tested my '18 230i 6mt last night and when I disengage the clutch the revs start dropping immediately, as expected. Maybe they changed the '18s?

As far as how I like the manual, my previous 3 cars were Integra GSR->AP1 S2000->AP2 S2000 so I like to think I know what a very good transmission feels like. Within a week of owning my first BMW I had to install the Kwong clutch stop (1 shim removed) and then the M perf shift knob. I must say those two make a significant difference and I'm loving it. I test drove an 8AT for 5 minutes and wasn't a fan.
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      12-23-2017, 04:48 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bis View Post
^ I've done this a couple of times with my 6MT. Requiring a more positive action by the driver seems like it would have been a good design decision. Chalk another one up to cost cutting?
BMW have had the same reverse detent system for at least 20 years. One assumption is that the driver knows what they are doing when they select a given gear. Much the same philosophy that European manufacturers have for other operational aspects of the car, for example in Europe there is no clutch pedal interlock with the starter - there is an assumption that you will check that you are not in gear before starting the car.
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      12-30-2017, 09:09 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD1953 View Post
base 2016 6MT coupe turning 30,000 this week. Flawless, fun to drive. It IS my daily driver with my MB GLE 350 on standby !
Quoting myself.

after 21 months/34,000 the 228i base coupe RWD 6MT of mine has become my daily driver. It's not only the car but the 6 speed is what I enjoy the most. Automatics are just too boring to me now.

I live in NH and drive to northern Maine from time to time. I'm ordering a winter wheel/tire package from BMWUSA 1st of week.

The MB 350 ML AWD can stay in the garage all winter unless there's a blizzard/

I figure in 2-3 years I'll be ready for a 4 door... maybe a 340i xdrive 6MT.

If the 6 speeds are not available I'll get "old" and hop into a new X3M40i.
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      01-14-2018, 05:51 PM   #100
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No regrets. Coming up on 4 years, DD, commuter traffic, all weather conditions.
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      01-14-2018, 08:43 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
12) It's damn hard to spin the tires on a 1-2 shift on most surfaces in warmer temps. When the tires don't spin, the shift can be rather abrupt on the 1-2.

14) There's more turbo lag with the 6MT.

15) In the Sport+ and DSC Off, BMW has somehow managed to make it so most of the boost is held on high rpm, hard shifts. I'm not sure how they've accomplished this, but it's impressive. It can make for eerily smooth shifts on the 2-3 and 3-4.
Again, no regrets - I will always choose manual as long as there is a choice.

As far as your original bullet points, I really agree with #12 and 14. The hard 1-2 shift is my major disappointment with this car. The split second of turbo lag completely kills the momentum.

Not sure if I disagree with #15 or not... the 1-2 shift is so lame, how can the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts be so much better? In a real muscle car, all 3 upshifts will produce wheelspin easily when shifting quickly at WOT (lifting when pressing the clutch of course). The best you can say about the M235i is that it's smooth on the 2-3 and 3-4 shifts. But then, it's not a muscle car.
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      01-22-2018, 12:57 PM   #102
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What's the general consensus on the auto rev matching of the newer M240i's? Thinking about getting back into a BMW, a used M235i or a new M240i.
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      01-22-2018, 01:01 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by tracerit View Post
What's the general consensus on the auto rev matching of the newer M240i's? Thinking about getting back into a BMW, a used M235i or a new M240i.
I hate it so I coded it out. But if you aren’t used to driving a manual, it makes you appear to be very proficient. Your passengers will think you are a pro.
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      01-22-2018, 01:53 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracerit View Post
What's the general consensus on the auto rev matching of the newer M240i's?
I don't think there is a general consensus - opinions differ. I've been driving mostly MTs for 40 years and while I have mixed feelings to some degree, overall I like the rev matching feature. No matter how good you are, you'll never be as good as a computer in matching so it does make for smoother downshifts. It can be argued that it takes away from the driving experience but for me this is not significant. It did take me a bit to get used to it, and it does turn off in Sports+ mode, or as the poster above has done it can be coded out if you really don't like it.

Although I have never worn out a clutch within 150K miles (I don't do a lot of city driving) I think this feature may reduce clutch wear.
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      01-22-2018, 03:19 PM   #105
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Quote:
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What's the general consensus on the auto rev matching of the newer M240i's? Thinking about getting back into a BMW, a used M235i or a new M240i.
That it's fine as long as you can turn it off easily (and have it remember the setting).

Having it so it needs to be coded out is stupid.
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      01-22-2018, 10:47 PM   #106
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When you code but the autonrev matching, is it off until you code it back in or doesn't give you a way to toggle it?
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      01-23-2018, 08:34 AM   #107
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How to code it out

Can you provide details on how to code it out ?

Also is there a way to code it so it is on in DSC OFF mode ?
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      01-26-2018, 07:31 PM   #108
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When you code but the autonrev matching, is it off until you code it back in or doesn't give you a way to toggle it?
It's off until you code it back in.
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      01-26-2018, 07:34 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanj308 View Post
Can you provide details on how to code it out ?

Also is there a way to code it so it is on in DSC OFF mode ?
I used BimmerCode. You select "Front Electronic Module" and then under "Start Engine Without Clutch" you select the opposite of the default setting (I cannot remember what the default is). I read another poster on here who said that would work and he was right.
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      01-27-2018, 11:45 AM   #110
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Only regret I have, is not placing myself in a warm climate, 12mo/yr.. Miss driving it, cant wait for April to start rowing through the gears again. Driving an auto is pretty mundane, day after day, but serves its purpose on a DD, or winter beater, for sure. It's always a treat getting back behind the wheel each spring.

#savethemanuals
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