[BEM-S4]

Think we have the pieces scattered throughout the thread but especially given that the head unit is the weak link and very few will replace that or wiring throughout the car, I'd be really interested to hear views on best we can actually do (within reason) for certain price points and figure out where the point of stupidity appears. For example under $500 do Eton and JL, $500 to $1000 Bav w ghost Subs, $1000 to $2000 replace speakers, subs and amp with whatever. Maybe add some stuff I'm not thinking of like extra sound deadening or source inputs to get you up to $2500. I am guessing (and could be wrong) somewhere around $2k is the limit of sane spending and afterwards you're burning big piles of cash with minimal improvement to the system.

[daimeow]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Here's the conundrum with using the USB input: Only BMW and the maker of the HU know what happens inside the HU. We already know that the HU downconverts CDs burned within the HU to 256kb for the 20GB HDD-equipped cars with the Technology Package. This is done to increase storage space on the HDD. Several of us have suspected that the CD player's output is compressed somewhat as well -- and I've definitely noticed jitter issues with it. We also don't know how the DAC operates, as well as what it is. It could be a dedicated chip, but it could also be software-based -- and based on the low computing power of iDrive, it's likely only an adequate one.

By replacing what's unknown with what is known -- and connecting what is known with the analog Aux In jack, which appears to operate with a minimum of intrusion from the HU (but not the DSP in the outboard amp) -- we are eliminating what, to my ears and several others', is some dubious digital signal processing. The NBT and EVO HUs in our cars are simply not very capable of high fidelity, particularly regarding nascent current strength -- even its line-level output has been proven to be significantly noisier than older BMW HUs.

man, that's sad. who would be so dedicated to get rid of the entire idrive system. maybe giving up the file decoding part is the most we can do. i guess i should start looking for hi-res players.....

btw, just happened to meet an old guy who owns a pro shop. he hates the new stuffs so much. so-called hi-end dsp and brands like helix are absolutely not his cup of tea.

he even said those newer made in germany etons are actually made in china just like mb quarts are also made by chinese. hes in the business for 30+ years. so maybe he knows some inside stories. he said the germans lied about emission. so dont be surprised.

well, something like dyna esoter is good in his view. and he still has some early production eton yellow cone and some other goodies like mcintosh and so on. i saw a mcintosh head unit and he said its made by sony in their golden era.

one more thing, a 235 owner let me listen to his $10k+ genesis and focal setup last time. fxxk me, i think our eton+JL formula outperformed his. i wonder who installed it for him. so there really is no complaint about our setup both value and quality -wise.

[selmeralto]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Think we have the pieces scattered throughout the thread but especially given that the head unit is the weak link and very few will replace that or wiring throughout the car, I'd be really interested to hear views on best we can actually do (within reason) for certain price points and figure out where the point of stupidity appears. For example under $500 do Eton and JL, $500 to $1000 Bav w ghost Subs, $1000 to $2000 replace speakers, subs and amp with whatever. Maybe add some stuff I'm not thinking of like extra sound deadening or source inputs to get you up to $2500. I am guessing (and could be wrong) somewhere around $2k is the limit of sane spending and afterwards you're burning big piles of cash with minimal improvement to the system.

Originally Posted by daimeow

... one more thing, a 235 owner let me listen to his $10k+ genesis and focal setup last time. fxxk me, i think our eton+JL formula outperformed his. i wonder who installed it for him. so there really is no complaint about our setup both value and quality -wise.

These are relevant comments, especially taken together.

What we really need are careful and detailed side by side (read: car by car) comparisons with different kinds of music and actual ears. I'm hoping we can make at least one comparison happen later in the spring. Will advise if/when it occurs.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by selmeralto

These are relevant comments, especially taken together.

What we really need are careful and detailed side by side (read: car by car) comparisons with different kinds of music and actual ears. I'm hoping we can make at least one comparison happen later in the spring. Will advise if/when it occurs.

Would also be very interested to see where HK slots in - i.e. does it ever make sense to drop that grand or are you better off starting from base hi-fi and building from there.

[daimeow]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Would also be very interested to see where HK slots in - i.e. does it ever make sense to drop that grand or are you better off starting from base hi-fi and building from there.

do the base and hk share the same head unit and wiring?

if yes, then the difference lies in the amp and speakers. these are the first things to go according to many owners.

so the hk is really meaningless

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by daimeow

do the base and hk share the same head unit and wiring?

if yes, then the difference lies in the amp and speakers. these are the first things to go according to many owners.

so the hk is really meaningless

Head unit yes, amp believe different but not entirely sure.

If amp better I'd do the HK on a vert as getting back there to swap is a BITCH.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by daimeow

btw, just happened to meet an old guy who owns a pro shop. he hates the new stuffs so much. so-called hi-end dsp and brands like helix are absolutely not his cup of tea.

he even said those newer made in germany etons are actually made in china just like mb quarts are also made by chinese. hes in the business for 30+ years. so maybe he knows some inside stories. he said the germans lied about emission. so dont be surprised.

Well, I wouldn't automatically discount products made in China. Some of the best home hi-fi buys out there (Sherwood, Xiang Sheng, Opera Consonance, Bada, etc.) are Chinese engineered and made. And let's not forget that Apple makes most of its stuff there.

That said, I know what you're saying. For instance, Marantz moved most of its non-Reference home components manufacturing from Japan to China in 2012 or so. By all accounts, the quality has suffered considerably. It's simply a crapshoot -- and all the more reason to really pay attention to objective things such as product stats, materials, and physical attention to detail.

Audiotec Fischer, the parent company of Helix, is only 27 years old. That company exists to fill a niche: to make audio components that work easily with many modern, electronically complex cars. MB Quart isn't German -- it's owned by Maxxsonics, which is an American company -- and it isn't just a speaker manufacturer anymore. Jehnert, on the other hand, is a relatively small company that specializes in turnkey car speaker upgrades, all of which are made in Germany -- same with Beyerdynamic and its focus on German-made headphones and microphones. There's a difference in product approach and scale there that simply makes Chinese manufacturing economically viable.

[fatumpsch]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Yes; a number of us have been touting the Aux-In jack and a hi-res DMP as the best source for the 2 Series audio for many moons. I personally run a Fiio X3v2, which has a dedicated Line Out, can play DSP files, and uses the Wolfson WM8740, the same DAC chip as many recent Arcam and Rotel CD players. It is stuffed with CD-quality AIFF files (I run a SSD-modified Mac Mini as a music server at home). It makes all the difference.

Hi Mike et al,
I've got the Eton/JLs and am planning to get a hi-res DMP next, but I don't know what style sound signature would best compliment this system. I currently have the stock amplifier, but may upgrade after DMP, if still unsatisfied. When you bypass the HU with a hi-res DMP, how would you describe the sound (Smooth/clinical, bright/dark, etc) through the Eton/JL speakers, and is that through stock or upgraded amp? ...Or does sound really depend on fade preference- since front and rear speakers have very different characteristics?

I like slightly warm and smooth sounds with more emphasis on full bass than clear treble, but don't want to go too far in those directions. I've been eyeing the new Fiio X5 3rd gen, and like that it is described as full, and slightly warm, smooth, and dark; but am worried that the primary speakers (Etons) may be too similar and it may be too much, and maybe I should go the opposite direction for DMP to balance it out. Thoughts?
Thanks!

[daimeow]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Head unit yes, amp believe different but not entirely sure.

If amp better I'd do the HK on a vert as getting back there to swap is a BITCH.

I think the previous owner of my car had the base system initially and then added just the HK front mids and trebles to it. I guess he cared more for the HK emblem on the A-pillar.

So I ordered the amp and changed it from non-HK to HK. The difference is quite obvious. It was a direct swap. Well, I didn't check if it requires coding

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by daimeow

I think the previous owner of my car had the base system initially and then added just the HK front mids and trebles to it. I guess he cared more for the HK emblem on the A-pillar.

So I ordered the amp and changed it from non-HK to HK. The difference is quite obvious. It was a direct swap. Well, I didn't check if it requires coding

That makes me feel slightly better about spending the HK $ - although I didn't have a choice car was on lot. Have Bav speakers probably gonna do subs and leave the HK amp. Next "audio" upgrade will be resonator delete.

[adema24]

Originally Posted by fatumpsch

Hi Mike et al,
I've got the Eton/JLs and am planning to get a hi-res DMP next, but I don't know what style sound signature would best compliment this system. I currently have the stock amplifier, but may upgrade after DMP, if still unsatisfied. When you bypass the HU with a hi-res DMP, how would you describe the sound (Smooth/clinical, bright/dark, etc) through the Eton/JL speakers, and is that through stock or upgraded amp? ...Or does sound really depend on fade preference- since front and rear speakers have very different characteristics?

I like slightly warm and smooth sounds with more emphasis on full bass than clear treble, but don't want to go too far in those directions. I've been eyeing the new Fiio X5 3rd gen, and like that it is described as full, and slightly warm, smooth, and dark; but am worried that the primary speakers (Etons) may be too similar and it may be too much, and maybe I should go the opposite direction for DMP to balance it out. Thoughts?
Thanks!

Before you drop hundreds of dollars on a hi-res audio player, make sure you have lossless audio files (flac, dsd, wav, etc) and also make sure you can hear the difference between a lossless file and lossy file (mp3, aac). Some people can't hear the difference. Also there's not going to be much difference playing MP3 files through your phone vs a DMP.

Next, since you say you're going to upgrade in steps, I would decide which is more important to you: DMP or amp. Both are gonna cost several hundred dollars. For car audio, the amp is gonna provide the largest increase in sound quality. If you the get the DMP first, how often do you plan on using it when you're not in the car?

[fatumpsch]

Originally Posted by adema24

Before you drop hundreds of dollars on a hi-res audio player, make sure you have lossless audio files (flac, dsd, wav, etc) and also make sure you can hear the difference between a lossless file and lossy file (mp3, aac). Some people can't hear the difference. Also there's not going to be much difference playing MP3 files through your phone vs a DMP.

Next, since you say you're going to upgrade in steps, I would decide which is more important to you: DMP or amp. Both are gonna cost several hundred dollars. For car audio, the amp is gonna provide the largest increase in sound quality. If you the get the DMP first, how often do you plan on using it when you're not in the car?

Good points. Some things to think about for sure. A lot of my music is from iTunes (i.e. lossy 256kbps/44.1kHz files). However almost half could be re-downloaded from Bandcamp or CD, but that would be a lot of work. Before I go any further, I will create some lossy versions from lossless versions and compare them back to back. I'll also do blind testing to ensure there isn't placebo effect. Funny, you start reading up on these things and based on what most people say you assume the differences between lossy/lossless, phone/DMP is night and day. It never occurred to me I might not be able to hear the differences, but at mid 40s that may be the case. Best to test for myself before proceeding to see if/how significant it is to me. Thanks for the reply and good advice.

[BEM-S4]

Not a fair comparison because base hifi in a 3 is better than a 2 but I just put Bav Stage on in dad's wagon. Sounds a ton better than HK in 2. Much easier than convertible too! Not counting the 30 mins I was tearing the garage apart looking for a screw whole thing was under 2 hours with sound proofing.

[Viffermike]

adema24

Originally Posted by fatumpsch

Good points. Some things to think about for sure. A lot of my music is from iTunes (i.e. lossy 256kbps/44.1kHz files). However almost half could be re-downloaded from Bandcamp or CD, but that would be a lot of work. Before I go any further, I will create some lossy versions from lossless versions and compare them back to back. I'll also do blind testing to ensure there isn't placebo effect. Funny, you start reading up on these things and based on what most people say you assume the differences between lossy/lossless, phone/DMP is night and day. It never occurred to me I might not be able to hear the differences, but at mid 40s that may be the case. Best to test for myself before proceeding to see if/how significant it is to me. Thanks for the reply and good advice.

fatumpsch, you need a reference system, my friend. I would do the following:
1) Determine the highest-fidelity audio system you have access to that can play both CDs and digital files.
2) Choose three 'reference' songs that you have both on CD and as one of those 256Kbps files. Good reference songs should be very dynamic and cleanly recorded, ideally with both simple and dense passages and quiet and loud passages, as well as notes played in very low and very high registers (the latter part is important). Bonus points if the recording has some audible 'imperfections' or subtleties such as a fretted-out guitar note, a crack in a voice, a sloppy cymbal hit, etc. An example of one of mine: "Owner of a Lonely Heart" by Yes, which has all of the ingredients above (The main imperfection: Trevor Rabin's opening riff has some intermittent overdrive breakup in it that can barely be heard on average systems but sticks out like a sore thumb on good ones.)
3). On that 'reference' system, set all eq flat. Make sure volume is the same for both CD playback and digital playback.
4). Play the CD version of the song, then play the 256Kbps version of the song, then play the CD version of the song again.
5). Boost treble on the system by 3-6db.
6). Repeat Step 4.
7). Return treble to flat, then boost bass by 3-6db.
8). Repeat Step 4.
9). Leave bass boosted. Boost treble 3-6db again.
10). Repeat Step 4.

If this doesn't convince you that lossless digital audio is the way to go, just use your phone and enjoy those 256Kbps files. But I doubt that will be the case ... and after doing such an A/B test, you'll realize by that much more how muddled up with DSP the OEM amp is.

[daimeow]

the fiio x3v2 is $150, quite affordable

[daimeow]

does anyone know if there will be any difference between playing an mp3 file "on an iphone with aux in" and "on a usb stick with the built-in usb port"?

if one can tell a difference, then it is reasonable to say that a hi-res player with lossless files will only produce even better results.

so i really want to know if the difference is obvious or simply placebo effect

[SlickShift]

I installed the JL rear speakers yesterday. Install was very easy and straight forward. I have to say I'm not blown away by the difference though. I was expecting a little more punch and depth from the upgrade. I'm not sure if I need to wait for them to break-in a bit or play around with the settings some more.

[Viffermike]

daimeow I've A/Bed all three scenarios -- and did it again this weekend now that I've got a new amp installed -- as well as the CD player with lossless 16/44.1 AIFF files -- not ideal as lossless files go, but good enough for our cars.

To my ears, the difference is there, but it is not great -- and I think the main reasons for that are twofold:
- DAC and DSP variations
- Input quality (connection, voltage, etc.)

Some general notes, source by source:
1). DMFs via thumb drive/USB: Uses the HU's DAC, which is unknown. Quality seems a bit tinny and thin, but only slightly. Bass response is good, but not great.
2). DMFs via iDevice/USB (iPhone, iPod, etc.): Uses the iDevice's DAC. Slightly better, but a little constricted and not as dynamic as USB. Bass response is about the same at 1).
3). CD player: Uses the HU's DAC. Dynamism is decent but a little sloppy, and overall sound is well balanced but lacks some heft. Jitter is present and noticeable to good ears, particularly during sonically dense and loud passages. Bass response is slightly better than 1)., but measured.
4). DMFs via hi-res DMP/Aux In: Uses the DMP's DAC -- in my case, I run a FiiO X3v2 with a dedicated Wolfson DAC. Better in all respects than any of the previous, particularly regarding dynamism and bass response. Articulation of passages with a wide frequency gulf (bass guitar with acoustic guitar, for instance, or electronic low-frequency/high-frequency passages) is noticeably superior than other methods.

The one thing I did not do over the weekend is run an iDevice or other DMP (I have several) through the Aux In jack. My FiiO has a 3.5mm Line Out, which drives the Aux In at a higher voltage than a regular headphone out would. I can say with certainty that driving the Aux In with a line-level signal makes a significant quality difference to my ears. They may not to others', but to mine, it definitely does.

[jhs1210]

Over the past week, I installed Arc Audio XDi 1100.5 amplifier with TechnicPnP harness in the stock location (ASD was coded out with Bimmercode app). Also changed out the front stage to Focal K2 Power 100KRS separates, and the rears to Focal 4" Performance 100AC coax, and left the woofers stock running in mono from the sub channel of the amplifier. The front and rear stages each get 150 watts per channel.

I did the install in stages, first changing out the amplifier early in the week. If you are going to do anything to your F22/F87, CHANGE OUT THE AMP! The stock speakers transformed with the new amp. The woofers truly came to life, as if they had been almost dormant with the wimpy stock amplifier. The tweeters were still very bright, but the punch from the extra watts helped open up the mids to a very respectable level. In fact, if I had not already bought the front and rear speakers, I would have been happy just leaving the system at this level of transformation.

I added the rear Focals next. I had to adjust the gain for the rears to make them come to life since they are much less efficient than the stock speakers. Once the gain was adjusted, they sound about the same or maybe a hair better than the stock ones. Really the only reason to have speakers back there is for the parking sensors and/or if you have people sitting in the back often.

Next came changing out the front stage. While the Focal K2 separates do have a bit more detail, I am hoping they open up after their break-in period. The highs are not as bright as the stock tweeter's highs, but they I would bet most people would say they are a bit on the bright side. I know the Morel's are supposed to be a bit warmer sound, so that may be an option for other folks. I went with them as I had previous experience with Focals many years ago in other cars.

I will report back once the speakers break in. I am not sure I am going to change out the under seat woofers. Right now the improvement in overall dynamics and sound should hold me over for a while. If I do add a subwoofer, I will go with Musicar NW's enclosure that fits perfectly in the trunk and looks OEM.

Again, if you do one thing to upgrade the sound in the car, swap out the amplifier (JL Audio seems like a very popular choice too). With all the wealth of information on this and many other threads, I think anyone that has done any kind of car audio in the past can do it themselves. With that said, if I had to do it again, I would have just bought the plug and play system from Musicar. The time savings of prep in getting the cables soldered, crossover connected and properly protected, custom amp rack made, not to mention the time it takes to do the system design, etc, makes the Musicar packages totally worth it in my book.

[daimeow]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

daimeow

The one thing I did not do over the weekend is run an iDevice or other DMP (I have several) through the Aux In jack. My FiiO has a 3.5mm Line Out, which drives the Aux In at a higher voltage than a regular headphone out would. I can say with certainty that driving the Aux In with a line-level signal makes a significant quality difference to my ears. They may not to others', but to mine, it definitely does.

The 3.5mm line out is a digital signal, right? I saw that most of the 3.5mm line out cables has 3.5mm on one end and RCA on the other end.

Can you use it like a 3.5mm earphone jack? (with a typical 3.5mm male-male cable)

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by daimeow

The 3.5mm line out is a digital signal, right? I saw that most of the 3.5mm line out cables has 3.5mm on one end and RCA on the other end.

Can you use it like a 3.5mm earphone jack? (with a typical 3.5mm male-male cable)

No; the line out on the FiiO is analog, as is the Aux In jack. All you need is a good male 3.5mm stereo-to-male 3.5mm stereo patch cord to hook it up (I use this one). One great thing about the FiiO is that you can set the Line Out to output either a constant reference volume (to enable the volume control on the system) or an adjustable one (to enable the volume control on the FiiO).

There's some conjecture that the headphone-level signal that is many DMPs' only analog output (example: iPods) don't drive many aux inputs with enough juice to realize a full-range signal. It's somewhat the same effect as some low-impedance headphones not getting enough juice to drive its transducers, thus requiring a headphone amp to realize full sonic potential. It's a crapshoot, but the only real way to tell of an aux input needs more juice is to A/B them with a headphone-level signal and a true line-level signal. In addition, some aux inputs simply 'like' a hotter signal, even if they're tuned to take a headphone-level signal. My Beyerdynamic headphones are like that: they operate fine with a headphone-level signal but really open up with an amp added.

[daimeow]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

No; the line out on the FiiO is analog, as is the Aux In jack.............

just visited fiio official site.
http://www.fiio.net/en/products/39

i wonder how a single hole can serve as both an analogue line out and a digital PDIF coax out.

do you switch it in the setting menu? or is it self-detected? or the two things are simply the same thing with two different names? so confusing.

So have u ever A/B the earphone out and line out on the 235i?

p.s. I don't listen to music when I am not driving. If I buy the fiio, it will only be used solely on the 235i. This is why I want to find out if it is noticible in the 235i case and only the 235i case.