06-09-2014, 06:41 AM | #67 |
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Vote with your wallet and not buy a car you really want over this? Then say goodbye to the future.
Want a temperature gauge? Spend $20 bucks and get a blutooth or wifi obd-2 adapter and a cheap app to measure. Believe gauges are always useful? My wife's Cayenne had a stuck open thermostat. Did the gauge help? No, it read 185 when the car was armed up (pointing straight up). Yet the cel was on? With my $20 dongle and app, I read the cel and the actual temeprature was 165-168. My grandpa complained about that missing gas stick and no front engine crank to start....
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06-09-2014, 09:59 AM | #68 | |
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???? The gas stick was replaced by a fuel gauge! The crank was replaced by a an electric starter. The M235i gauge was replaced by a logo. What is your point? You are saying we are not accepting progress. Most of us agree with that adding a fuel gauge was good progress as was an electric starter. How is a glowing logo progress? Even if you are idiot light lover. Then BMW could replace the gauge with three idiot lights...cold, warm (operating temperature) and hot (pull over) then all the idiot light lovers will be happy and we could live with that and call it "progress." |
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06-09-2014, 10:45 AM | #69 |
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I think some of the disagreement comes from how we drive our cars and how long we keep them. For example, I noticed that some of the posters that think dropping the temp gauge replace their cars pretty often. Also, some might not work on their cars. Some of us keep our cars a long time, out of warranty and work on cars both personally and in my case I did a stint in the dyno and test department of an IMSA GTP team. My best friend owns an independent Mercedes BMW only shop and I sometimes help him when he gets busy. I see the tidal wave of 8 year old BMWs with burst expansion tanks and radiators, plastic water pump impellers that fail and even the E90/92 electric water pumps. Thermostats, etc. His bread and butter is BMW cooling systems, window regulators and brake jobs. If you look at consumer reports reliability ratings, you will see BMW is below average on engine cooling issues. When the first 335i's came out they were overheating and owners saw that with their easy to read temp gauge. BMW eventually added oil coolers to those that didn't get one. So those of us that drive older BMWs find that the temp gauge is important.
Some of the responses have been go buy a 20 blue tooth app for your iphone after you spend $50K and by the way, pay extra for the bluetooth option on top of it and hope you didn't accidentally switch off bluetooth when your expansion tank goes. Others like the cool 235i logo where the boring gauge used to sit on the 1 series. Let me ask all of you than think that dropping the temp gauge is progress even if just for a logo or because you can dig through it in some nested digital display. If BMW drops the gas gauge in the next model, would you be concerned? Would you merrily go buy an iphone app to tell you when you are low on gas? Would you call those that think dropping the fuel gauge, grandpas and whiners? Seriously, curious what is your threshold. At what point would you come over to our side? After they drop the fuel gauge, tach, speedo? Maybe the drop the PRNDL on the automatics and you have to count the clicks on the auto stick. Chime in and let us know at what point of dropping instrumentation would you feel compelled to consider that you are not willing go give that up? |
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06-09-2014, 01:04 PM | #70 | |
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I think you've framed the disagreement incorrectly. The disagreement isn't between those who drive their cars for a long time and those who don't, it's between those who place their trust in the engine management systems and those who don't. Please don't misinterpret me. I'm not weighing in on either side of that argument in the statement above. Many people have good reason to distrust the "smarts" inside their BMW. They've been burned (ha, pun!) by bad temperature monitoring in the past. The dirty secret here is that coolant temperature needle gauges haven't really been accurate (in many cars) for a long time. They're "damped" by the engine control systems. And using the term "damped" is really generous. In reality, they're just an idiot light that happens to use a needle to indicate status. In many cars, the needle represents conditions, not actual temperature. For example, the needle might have a few ranges: warm-up, normal, overheat, critical. Also consider the manufacturer's perspective. Interpreting a temperature gauge requires some degree of nuance. Consumers' perception of how an engine works is often grossly incorrect. How many worry warts do you think make a trip to the dealership if the coolant temp needle edges a little bit close to the hot side? How many of those trips are actually warranted? Manufacturers desperately want to reduce these spurious visits. My opinion is that enthusiast oriented cars should still have them. It just seems to me that an enthusiast would want to know about the reality under the hood. I don't want/need the car's control systems interpreting the data. I'd prefer to do that myself. Manufacturers already charge a premium for enthusiast oriented cars, so why not dedicate some of those profits toward giving us what we want? When considering the cost impact, you have to consider the support issues that arise with providing a coolant temperature gauge, however. It's not a simple matter of a $2 gauge on the cluster. I still think it's worth it though.
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06-09-2014, 01:19 PM | #71 |
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Since the computer is taking care of the temperatures then why not have warm up sequence like the M3 does. You can't rev past a certain point till its warmed up. I would be fine with that. Just want to know when its safe to push the car hard without forcing a problem. Even my 07 Lotus Exige S has temp sequence. It won't let me go over a certain rev till its warmed up. But it does have a temp gauge too.
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06-09-2014, 02:05 PM | #72 | |
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06-09-2014, 02:59 PM | #73 | |
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06-09-2014, 06:52 PM | #75 | |
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06-10-2014, 08:07 AM | #76 | |
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06-10-2014, 03:54 PM | #77 | |
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The fact that you have to drive the car around for a few minutes before you can get a reading is definitely not great, but I don't think the point of the feature is to tell you that your oil is too low to safely run the engine. It's to tell you that it's time to add a quart. I assume (hope?) an idiot light would turn on if the oil pressure were severely low. Also, I always figured the electronic method was more reliable than the dipstick method, since the conditions of the measurement are pretty consistent (warmed up engine + engine running). With a dipstick, you can get a different reading depending on whether you check your oil when the engine is cold vs. warmed up.
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06-10-2014, 05:24 PM | #78 | |
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How does the electronic work? What is it measuring as if the car is running the oil is being pumped through the engine and not all in the oil pan anymore.
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06-10-2014, 06:42 PM | #79 | |
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06-10-2014, 06:53 PM | #80 |
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I don't doubt Bmw engineers know what there doing. But is it more expensive for a technology that makes checking the oil slower? ha ha. It's interesting why some of there models have a temp gauge and some do not. Just curious to know what the thinking is on that. My friends 335xi has a temp gauge why not the m325i being its supposedly the new enthusiast drivers car? I'm not to worried about it just always curious what the thinking is behind the decisions.
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06-10-2014, 07:20 PM | #81 |
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nachob comment was directed at me, and i will respond, though I also agree with bradleyland. First, I don't keep cars for 5 or 10 years so the overheating issues at 80k miles do not affect me. Second, while I prefer a full suite of gauges, it is not a deal breaker for me. I monitor what I need through my cell phone (and I am 53 so if i can do anyone can). The bottom line is that BMW sells cars and in car sales I guarantee you that no oil dipstick or temp gauge cracks the top 50 of what buyers want. So they are removed for efficiency sake (and once less hole in an engine has to ai in design/manufacturing.
That said, any car I own that I wanted to keep long term, I would simply add any gauge I wanted, not hard or expensive. My Corvair, which has two idiot lights had a broken cylinder head thermister, so I got another one and installed it myself so I could monitor head temp. If I ever tracked my 235i I would add whayt I needed. Finally this argument that I need a temp gauge to know when I can redlline and drive fast is idiotic. Wait ten minutes, the car does have a clock in case you need a gauge to tell you that.
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06-11-2014, 07:21 AM | #82 | |
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My question is why does one model get the temp gauge and another doesn't. Just very curious to what the engineer/designers where thinking when deciding not to have a temp gauge or any other gauges for that matter. If there was no temp gauge across the models then i would say ok hopefully technology is taking care of it.
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06-11-2014, 07:29 AM | #83 | |
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06-11-2014, 08:30 AM | #84 |
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If someone could reprogram the instrument cluster to show oil temperature instead of the MPG meter under velocimeter it could work... But only for the extended cluster people... You guys think it possible?
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06-11-2014, 05:31 PM | #85 |
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I no that this info is not reported over the obd-ii port so less likely to be available by coding.
"I think most of want a temp gauge for just knowing the health of our cars.." We represent less than 1% of BMW buyers. The vast majority could care less and that is why BMW takes it out...it allocates resources for what the majority want.
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06-11-2014, 05:44 PM | #86 | |
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The one thing i noticed is the cluster in a 335 is a bit larger then in the M235i. That is the only thing i can see why they didn't put in the gauge. The design took precedence and they probably don't want to make a smaller temp gauge when they have containers full of the standard size already . Just guessing at things here. Would be cool to know the exact reason tho.
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06-11-2014, 08:50 PM | #87 |
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A couple of points. As far as I know when the 335 was introduced in 2007 it had an oil cooler on all cars with the sport option, my 2007 E93 335 did but you had to have the sport option. I rarely checked engine oil temp and when I did it wasn't to see if it was warm it was to see if it was overheating in heavy traffic which it never did. Having driven BMW's for 20 years including 3 E46 M3's you learn they need to warm up before you push them. I really don't need a gauge to tell me this. If I pull out of my neighborhood and need to get up to speed quickly because someone came over the hill and is bearing down on me I could give a shit about what a needle says I'm going to punch it. If someone is dumb enough to start a cold engine on any car and run the shit out all the time then a gauge really doesn't matter. Common sense tells me how long it takes to warm up to an acceptable level. Would a gauge be nice, yes. Is a gauge going to change my driving habits, no. To me the biggest benefit is not the warm up stage but for overheating. I think the range on the gauge was a little off on the 335 because actually the car was already warm on the 335 before the needle moved into the artificially high range that was displayed. Not sure what the range on the display is on the M235 is since mine doesn't have one. This was actually addressed by some car magazines some years ago regarding the oil temp range on the 335 being higher than needed to show your car was adequately warmed up.
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06-11-2014, 11:57 PM | #88 |
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Do you guys know about the secret menu?
Press down the mileage reset button, while starting your car. The unlock code is the last four digits of your vin added together . |
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