[Ello]

I'm interested in this discussion because I live in Vermont which is cold, snowy, rainy, and has hills (I ski a lot too). We're 90 minutes south of Montreal. This year it snowed quite a bit in April.

I had a long debate with myself about this choice, and a lot of discussions at the BMW dealer here as I do prefer a manual. I tried the 435i with Xdrive and a stick and found it a little too grown up, a bit dull.

So it came down to the M235 as a RWD MT or AWD AT.

Problem is, I have no experience with RWD in winter. And nobody at our local dealerships -- not one person from the owner to the techs, many of them serious BMW enthusiasts with multiple cars -- drives RWD here in winter. Two of the techs swore to me they'd tried to drive their M3s all winter long and had given up between fat tires sledding around when snow gets deep, and no traction on hills.

So far I have not found anyone here who drives their RWD BMW or Mercedes year round in our conditions.

Does anyone on this board live where it is hilly and very snowy and drive RWD year round, and can you comment on that?

Again, Vermont is not a place where you have 4 snow days a year. More like 40.

As a side note, my previous car was an AWD Golf R and it was brilliant year round. Fact is AWD can be super fun, especially when it's nasty and slushy and rainy out on our windy bumpy roads up here, and you can't believe you're still gripping the road!

I just prefer a manual, but don't want two cars so looks like XDrive and AT for me unless someone can convince me otherwise.

[shark715]

Originally Posted by Ello

I'm interested in this discussion because I live in Vermont which is cold, snowy, rainy, and has hills (I ski a lot too). We're 90 minutes south of Montreal. This year it snowed quite a bit in April.

I had a long debate with myself about this choice, and a lot of discussions at the BMW dealer here as I do prefer a manual. I tried the 435i with Xdrive and a stick and found it a little too grown up, a bit dull.

So it came down to the M235 as a RWD MT or AWD AT.

Problem is, I have no experience with RWD in winter. And nobody at our local dealerships -- not one person from the owner to the techs, many of them serious BMW enthusiasts with multiple cars -- drives RWD here in winter. Two of the techs swore to me they'd tried to drive their M3s all winter long and had given up between fat tires sledding around when snow gets deep, and no traction on hills.

So far I have not found anyone here who drives their RWD BMW or Mercedes year round in our conditions.

Does anyone on this board live where it is hilly and very snowy and drive RWD year round, and can you comment on that?

Again, Vermont is not a place where you have 4 snow days a year. More like 40.

As a side note, my previous car was an AWD Golf R and it was brilliant year round. Fact is AWD can be super fun, especially when it's nasty and slushy and rainy out on our windy bumpy roads up here, and you can't believe you're still gripping the road!

I just prefer a manual, but don't want two cars so looks like XDrive and AT for me unless someone can convince me otherwise.

I fully appreciate why some of the the purists are adamant about RWD, and sure you are going to hear some RWD owners with winter tires who claim they never got stuck. My answer to them is that they never faced a severe enough situation to get stuck. There's just no question AWD will be superior for your winter needs. Perhaps even more important is that you need good winter tires. If you drive them back to back (same car, same conditions) you will clearly notice the difference, not only with traction but with braking too, and particularly braking on icy roads which you often face in VT (I know as I'm up there several times a year skiing). That's why I'm waiting for the 235 convertible with x drive to become available in the next few months. As odd as it sounds it will be the occasional ski vehicle, and for us AWD is a must .

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Ello

Two of the techs swore to me they'd tried to drive their M3s all winter long and had given up between fat tires sledding around when snow gets deep, and no traction on hills.

I am a rear wheel drive fan who drives all year long in Michigan. The commonality is cold, snow, but not mountains....slopes, gentle hills, but not a place where the license plates say "Green Mountain State"!

Let's start by realizing the AWD does little to nothing for braking and turning (unless you are turning at some speed and the front wheel traction provides some assistance - but nothing for braking/turning to avoid an obstacle). However, it is inescapable that AWD will find that last extra bit of traction available for the front tires when the rears can't grab.

However, the sentence I chose to quote tells me you're talking to the wrong people. Any tech who tries to drive in winter on "fat tires" has disqualified themselves. Rear wheel drive is only conceivable in your neck of the woods when on the skinniest possible (think max 205 tread width on 17" wheels, smaller if you can by skipping the MSport brakes) dedicated studless winter tires, such as Blizzak WS80. Also, realize this means you give up winter "performance" for capability until Mother Nature gets civilized again...these are amazing, but soft, tires which grab at almost anything. Ask any of your techs if they ever tried to drive their M3 in the winter on dedicated winter tires. If the answer is "no", plug your ears and move on.

The other factor I don't know is whether your roads are plowed or if you are forced to drive on significant virgin snow where the likelihood of losing traction is greater. AWD with winter tires will provide more traction than RWD with winter tires, assuming the fronts are needed to find some traction when the rears cannot. However, also consider that going up a hill, weight transfer goes to the rear tires, so the relative contribution of the fronts is diminished.

All in all, if you have reasonable snow plow service for your roads and dedicated winter tires, I wouldn't give up the transmission choice. Think for a moment about those in Germany and Switzerland and how they got around long before AWD cars were widely available....dedicated winter tires, and in some cases, studs/chains. But, with the right traction at the tire, two rear wheels can move the car if it helps you avoid buying a car for the rest of the year you don't really want as your first choice.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by shark715

My answer to them is that they never faced a severe enough situation to get stuck.

Notwithstanding my prior post, this is the issue. Will you require that last bit of capability in the most severe conditions to the point of changing your transmission choice? We can't know that, but AWD will provide an edge...you have to decide if that edge is necessary.

[YellowMellow]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I am a rear wheel drive fan who drives all year long in Michigan. The commonality is cold, snow, but not mountains....slopes, gentle hills, but not a place where the license plates say "Green Mountain State"!

99% of the members on this forum will not be able to drive either the RWD or AWD to its full potential. Additionally unless you track your car, you won't notice a major difference on a daily basis. The AWD with the proper options will probably have better resale value than the RWD model.

With that said, get the M235 xdrive model and add snow tires if you want the extra piece of mind.

[jcurto]

Originally Posted by Ello

I'm interested in this discussion because I live in Vermont which is cold, snowy, rainy, and has hills (I ski a lot too). We're 90 minutes south of Montreal. This year it snowed quite a bit in April.

I had a long debate with myself about this choice, and a lot of discussions at the BMW dealer here as I do prefer a manual. I tried the 435i with Xdrive and a stick and found it a little too grown up, a bit dull.

So it came down to the M235 as a RWD MT or AWD AT.

Problem is, I have no experience with RWD in winter. And nobody at our local dealerships -- not one person from the owner to the techs, many of them serious BMW enthusiasts with multiple cars -- drives RWD here in winter. Two of the techs swore to me they'd tried to drive their M3s all winter long and had given up between fat tires sledding around when snow gets deep, and no traction on hills.

So far I have not found anyone here who drives their RWD BMW or Mercedes year round in our conditions.

Does anyone on this board live where it is hilly and very snowy and drive RWD year round, and can you comment on that?

Again, Vermont is not a place where you have 4 snow days a year. More like 40.

As a side note, my previous car was an AWD Golf R and it was brilliant year round. Fact is AWD can be super fun, especially when it's nasty and slushy and rainy out on our windy bumpy roads up here, and you can't believe you're still gripping the road!

I just prefer a manual, but don't want two cars so looks like XDrive and AT for me unless someone can convince me otherwise.

My M235i xdrive is my first AWD car AND the first automatic transmission car I've ever driven as my own (my former spouse had auto-trans cars but I rarely drove them).

First off, the 8-speed auto transmission is phenomenal. I actually really love it and don't miss the MT all that much. It's always in the right gear, the driver-selectable options (comfort, sport and the paddles/beer tap manual option) make up for the lack of "shift yer own."

Secondly, while I live in the Chicago 'burbs, (where it snows and ices a bit) I have a vacation home in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, where it snows an average of 320 inches a year. I spent about 3 weeks up there this winter and the xdrive was - AMAZING. I was really shocked. I have an old (old) Jeep that I keep at my vacation place, but my M235 was just about as capable as the Jeep that has big off-road style tires mounted.

My brother also was at the vacation home during the same time. He has a Caddy CTS-V - a rear-wheel drive car. He has Blizzaks mounted for the winter and... his car sucked in the snow. He couldn't move AT ALL in any kind of snow or ice. He even had some plastic "chains" and he STILL couldn't go anywhere.

So... my advice is that you won't regret the AT and if you need to drive in snow, you'll love the AWD.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by jcurto

My M235i xdrive is my first AWD car AND the first automatic transmission car I've ever driven as my own (my former spouse had auto-trans cars but I rarely drove them).

First off, the 8-speed auto transmission is phenomenal. I actually really love it and don't miss the MT all that much. It's always in the right gear, the driver-selectable options (comfort, sport and the paddles/beer tap manual option) make up for the lack of "shift yer own."

Secondly, while I live in the Chicago 'burbs, (where it snows and ices a bit) I have a vacation home in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, where it snows an average of 320 inches a year. I spent about 3 weeks up there this winter and the xdrive was - AMAZING. I was really shocked. I have an old (old) Jeep that I keep at my vacation place, but my M235 was just about as capable as the Jeep that has big off-road style tires mounted.

My brother also was at the vacation home during the same time. He has a Caddy CTS-V - a rear-wheel drive car. He has Blizzaks mounted for the winter and... his car sucked in the snow. He couldn't move AT ALL in any kind of snow or ice. He even had some plastic "chains" and he STILL couldn't go anywhere.

So... my advice is that you won't regret the AT and if you need to drive in snow, you'll love the AWD.

One distinction. Blizzak makes LM series tires which attempt to blend winter and performance. Avoid them for their minor incremental value. Blizzak WS tires are a breed apart. If the CTS had LM, which sell far more than they should, the result is not surprising.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by YellowMellow

99% of the members on this forum will not be able to drive either the RWD or AWD to its full potential. Additionally unless you track your car, you won't notice a major difference on a daily basis. The AWD with the proper options will probably have better resale value than the RWD model.

With that said, get the M235 xdrive model and add snow tires if you want the extra piece of mind.

Although the two drivetrains feel different in everyday driving far below the max potential due to the extra weight over the front wheels (less feels better), his issue is the forced choice of transmission.

AWD with automatic will have better resale than RWD stick, but I've never compromised on my choice just because of some resale change years later.

[shark715]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

The other factor I don't know is whether your roads are plowed or if you are forced to drive on significant virgin snow where the likelihood of losing traction is greater.

Vermont is substantially rural. Unless you live in a larger town like Burlington or Rutland or are on the interstate, based on lots of experience I can tell you that you can't count on the roads being plowed. And we are talking about lots of really steep hills throughout most of the state. There's a reason that you see a tremendous number of Subarus in VT. The locals learned long ago just how advantageous AWD is in the conditions they regularly face.

[midwest 340xi 6sp]

Lived in snowy midwest all my life and have driven RWD with Snows and AWD with Snows, AWD with All Seasons...

If you cherish MT? Get the RWD and put some good snow tires on it...You'll be fine 90% of the time. Bottom line is AWD with Snows is better than RWD with snows or AWD with All Seasons..Its that simple.

Tires are the key as Sportstick points out..And btw, I disagree with him regarding Blizzak LM's performance snows...I found them perfectly fine for Winter and offer the best combination of handling and traction..But our roads get plowed quickly when it snows too

The WS Snow/Ice tires are far too soft for my taste in a car of 2 series ilk..Like driving on rubber bands. Bottom line? Do your homework on tires. Whats right for me or him may or may not be to your liking or taste.

[ABPReader]

.

[Ello]

Thank you everyone for your replies.

Thinking I'm probably going to go AWD here in Vermont, because getting stuck in the middle of nowhere here really sucks -- and trust the comments of those that are enjoying their AT. That said, has anyone tried RWD with LSD, and does that help much on a snowy hill?

We live in the countryside outside of Burlington. The main roads are plowed, but there are many many roads (including roads that I drive regularly) that aren't, and many are hilly. Actually, driving aggressively on snowy roads in an AWD can be pretty fun (as I said in my previous post mentioning my old AWD Golf R) because at least in my last car, when the rear wheels would start to slide a bit I could feel one or the other tires suddenly grabbing traction.

Vermont is one of those places with empty winding back roads, both dirt and asphalt, and where the speed traps are always in the same place. The towns here are so small and everyone knows each other, and most of the police don't want to bust anyone they know, so they tend to set up on main roads where the tourists from NYC and Montreal speed by.

Anyway, I'll give the paddles a try. Is anyone using them refgulalry and liking them as much as AT?

I was just in Europe and we rented a Volvo V60 diesel r-design that had paddles, and after two weeks I finally got how to use them and it was a blast. The diesel could only rev to 4500 so I'm interested to see what it'll be like driving with paddles in a car I can get up to 7K and beyond!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Ello

Thank you everyone for your replies.

Thinking I'm probably going to go AWD here in Vermont, because getting stuck in the middle of nowhere here really sucks -- and trust the comments of those that are enjoying their AT. That said, has anyone tried RWD with LSD, and does that help much on a snowy hill?

We live in the countryside outside of Burlington. The main roads are plowed, but there are many many roads (including roads that I drive regularly) that aren't, and many are hilly. Actually, driving aggressively on snowy roads in an AWD can be pretty fun (as I said in my previous post mentioning my old AWD Golf R) because at least in my last car, when the rear wheels would start to slide a bit I could feel one or the other tires suddenly grabbing traction.

Vermont is one of those places with empty winding back roads, both dirt and asphalt, and where the speed traps are always in the same place. The towns here are so small and everyone knows each other, and most of the police don't want to bust anyone they know, so they tend to set up on main roads where the tourists from NYC and Montreal speed by.

Anyway, I'll give the paddles a try. Is anyone using them refgulalry and liking them as much as AT?

I was just in Europe and we rented a Volvo V60 diesel r-design that had paddles, and after two weeks I finally got how to use them and it was a blast. The diesel could only rev to 4500 so I'm interested to see what it'll be like driving with paddles in a car I can get up to 7K and beyond!

Best wishes and enjoy your new BMW! It is the best automatic I ever tried, anywhere. Even with AWD, be sure to get the dedicated winter tires. AWD is not a substitute for winters. Yes, WS80 are soft but very high capability. If the softness concerns you, try Michelin XIce xi3, also in the studless category, but not as soft, before Blizzak LM.

[Ello]

+1 to winter tires. They should be required in states like ours, crazy people even try to get around in AS!

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Midwest M235i

Lived in snowy midwest all my life and have driven RWD with Snows and AWD with Snows, AWD with All Seasons...

If you cherish MT? Get the RWD and put some good snow tires on it...You'll be fine 90% of the time. Bottom line is AWD with Snows is better than RWD with snows or AWD with All Seasons..Its that simple.

Tires are the key as Sportstick points out..And btw, I disagree with him regarding Blizzak LM's performance snows...I found them perfectly fine for Winter and offer the best combination of handling and traction..But our roads get plowed quickly when it snows too

The WS Snow/Ice tires are far too soft for my taste in a car of 2 series ilk..Like driving on rubber bands. Bottom line? Do your homework on tires. Whats right for me or him may or may not be to your liking or taste.

Great post. I've used 4 performance (v rated or higher) for 30 years and they are fantastic. Anything less than H rated feels squirmy and is absolutely no fun and borderline dangerous if you drive fast when the snow clears. If I lived in Vermont I wouldnt consider RWD. AWD is just too good.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I am a rear wheel drive fan who drives all year long in Michigan. The commonality is cold, snow, but not mountains....slopes, gentle hills, but not a place where the license plates say "Green Mountain State"!

Let's start by realizing the AWD does little to nothing for braking and turning (unless you are turning at some speed and the front wheel traction provides some assistance - but nothing for braking/turning to avoid an obstacle). However, it is inescapable that AWD will find that last extra bit of traction available for the front tires when the rears can't grab.

However, the sentence I chose to quote tells me you're talking to the wrong people. Any tech who tries to drive in winter on "fat tires" has disqualified themselves. Rear wheel drive is only conceivable in your neck of the woods when on the skinniest possible (think max 205 tread width on 17" wheels, smaller if you can by skipping the MSport brakes) dedicated studless winter tires, such as Blizzak WS80. Also, realize this means you give up winter "performance" for capability until Mother Nature gets civilized again...these are amazing, but soft, tires which grab at almost anything. Ask any of your techs if they ever tried to drive their M3 in the winter on dedicated winter tires. If the answer is "no", plug your ears and move on.

The other factor I don't know is whether your roads are plowed or if you are forced to drive on significant virgin snow where the likelihood of losing traction is greater. AWD with winter tires will provide more traction than RWD with winter tires, assuming the fronts are needed to find some traction when the rears cannot. However, also consider that going up a hill, weight transfer goes to the rear tires, so the relative contribution of the fronts is diminished.

All in all, if you have reasonable snow plow service for your roads and dedicated winter tires, I wouldn't give up the transmission choice. Think for a moment about those in Germany and Switzerland and how they got around long before AWD cars were widely available....dedicated winter tires, and in some cases, studs/chains. But, with the right traction at the tire, two rear wheels can move the car if it helps you avoid buying a car for the rest of the year you don't really want as your first choice.

I dont think you have much experience driving AWD in the winter?. This statement is silly. Ever notice how FWD cars get up slippery hills more readily than RWD?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

I dont think you have much experience driving AWD in the winter?. This statement is silly. Ever notice how FWD cars get up slippery hills more readily than RWD?

30+ years or so is not much experience, I guess? The silliness is not in my statement. The effect I describe is continuous, depending on the slope of the hill. The more severe the angle, the more the weight transfers rearward, unloading the front wheels and loading the rear.

[moldcad]

You're both right and both wrong at the same time. Granted the slope will transfer more weight to the rears, but it won't change the fact that in snow, it's easier to pull than to push....

[kdog26372]

Originally Posted by Ello

Thank you everyone for your replies.

Thinking I'm probably going to go AWD here in Vermont, because getting stuck in the middle of nowhere here really sucks -- and trust the comments of those that are enjoying their AT. That said, has anyone tried RWD with LSD, and does that help much on a snowy hill?

I had a 135i w/RWD and added an LSD to this car and also had snow tires. The LSD helped getting out of snowy parking spots in Chicago, ruts basically. Not sure about hills as Chicago is pretty flat. There is no comparison between RWD w/LSD and snow tires and AWD with snow tires. AWD is simply better in the snow and rain for that matter.
Like others have said, you should get snow tires regardless of which you choose. The auto is quicker than the stick although I get why some people have more fun with the stick.
Lastly, if you order the AWD version remember to check off the box for mixed summer performance tires or you will end up with crappy square run flat all season tires; it's a free upgrade to the Michelin Pilot SS and seems stupid to not get those if you will add winter tires for winter.
Enjoy whatever you get.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

30+ years or so is not much experience, I guess? The silliness is not in my statement. The effect I describe is continuous, depending on the slope of the hill. The more severe the angle, the more the weight transfers rearward, unloading the front wheels and loading the rear.

Well that makes your statement about weight transfer even more puzzling. Sure some weight transfers but fronts are still fully engaged and make it possible to climb .

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Well that makes your statement about weight transfer even more puzzling. Sure some weight transfers but fronts are still fully engaged and make it possible to climb .

Let's make a couple of assumptions just to have the discussion. Let's assume we're discussing an AWD car with 50/50 weight distribution, and torque split equally among all four wheels and stays that way, and the tires have traction, just for the sake of an example.

On a flat ground, all four wheels/tires are contributing equally to moving the car forward. If the car starts to climb a grade, the weight shifts rearward, causing traction to improve to some degree in the rear, while unloading the fronts, reducing traction to some degree. Nothing is going from 100% to 0%...it's a relative shift of degree. The front wheels may be turning, but the reduction in downforce reduces the traction at the front tire contact patches.

A good example of this is the skid car at driving schools, such as Bondurant. They car lift the front end slightly to reduce the weight on the front wheels, with the car riding in an outrigger. The car then tends to understeer as a result of loss of traction. This makes for an entertaining training excercise.

For the OP, located in Vermont, my only point was that to the degree the hills are steeper, the relative shift to the rear is greater. Again, the front doesn't go to zero, but the relative contribution of the front tires is proportionately reduced.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Let's make a couple of assumptions just to have the discussion. Let's assume we're discussing an AWD car with 50/50 weight distribution, and torque split equally among all four wheels and stays that way, and the tires have traction, just for the sake of an example.

On a flat ground, all four wheels/tires are contributing equally to moving the car forward. If the car starts to climb a grade, the weight shifts rearward, causing traction to improve to some degree in the rear, while unloading the fronts, reducing traction to some degree. Nothing is going from 100% to 0%...it's a relative shift of degree. The front wheels may be turning, but the reduction in downforce reduces the traction at the front tire contact patches.

A good example of this is the skid car at driving schools, such as Bondurant. They car lift the front end slightly to reduce the weight on the front wheels, with the car riding in an outrigger. The car then tends to understeer as a result of loss of traction. This makes for an entertaining training excercise.

For the OP, located in Vermont, my only point was that to the degree the hills are steeper, the relative shift to the rear is greater. Again, the front doesn't go to zero, but the relative contribution of the front tires is proportionately reduced.

You are unbelievable. Take a Rwd car and an awd car to a hill and tell me which one will have the least trouble climbing the hill . Very simple. Man you like talking.......in circles.