[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by bimmerbuff

Ha, I've been trying to make the same argument (probably less eloquently) over in this thread: http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1034302

I also would have preferred the M2 to have a detuned S55. Maybe we'll be surprised, but I doubt it.

I think they could detune the engine and put it in the M2 - it seems that the N55 is nearly un-crackable, so what's the hesitation with the S55? Put it in the M2, be reasonably certain that people like Terry or Shiv won't be able to crack it, put the BHP @ 370 and call it a day.

You could also charge more if you have an S55 in the car - hello, BMW are you listening???

I, for one, would be much more likely to jump into the M2 based on stat sheets alone if the engine is something that feels truly special. An N55 with higher boost and a little better cooling just isn't likely to do it for me...even if the car isn't squishy like my M235.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Chack

Because good M's aren't cheap.

Speaking for myself - If I could've afforded an M, I would have bought one. But, I couldn't.

My deceased 2004 e46 M3 "Akira" cost me $29K in 2009 for 40K miles used (and abused) and required an additional cash sacrifice ~$4K/yr subsequent - in lump sums. RIP Akira 2012. I was headed to the poor house. So, money is the #1 and only reason I sit in a non-M car.

These are continued "teachings" from my pops.

Aka, house money is for cars.

[Chack]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

These are continued "teachings" from my pops.

Aka, house money is for cars.

Houses for houses and cars for cars. Also, don't fall in love with either.

[ORIGIN M.]

To funny!

VW bought Ducati, and I doubt they will be selling them anytime soon.

Originally Posted by nachob

Let's hope BMW doesn't buy Ducati and you end up with fake active sound Ducati rap-rap-rap-rap sound!

: )

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[golf_234]

After viewing that latest test video in the M2 section, just wow. What a beautiful machine, even in camo, it is beautiful. The 235 is also phenomenal, don't know what people are worrying about, one of the best cars bmw has made. If it is too soft for your liking, tune it up. Get lowering springs, coilovers, performance exhaust, more aggressive exterior, the options are there.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by golf_234

After viewing that latest test video in the M2 section, just wow. What a beautiful machine, even in camo, it is beautiful. The 235 is also phenomenal, don't know what people are worrying about, one of the best cars bmw has made. If it is too soft for your liking, tune it up. Get lowering springs, coilovers, performance exhaust, more aggressive exterior, the options are there.

+1

This is an awesome platform, which gives me hope for the M2. But if you're trying to get the M235i to the next level, this is easily attained.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by golf_234

After viewing that latest test video in the M2 section, just wow. What a beautiful machine, even in camo, it is beautiful. The 235 is also phenomenal, don't know what people are worrying about, one of the best cars bmw has made. If it is too soft for your liking, tune it up. Get lowering springs, coilovers, performance exhaust, more aggressive exterior, the options are there.

This, of course, is true - and I could definitely do that. Just not sure about getting that nuts with a lease. And...it begs the question why more of that isn't present to begin with, at least in my mind.

Valid point regardless.

[ORIGIN M.]

LSD alone is what BMW screwed up on.

Originally Posted by dmboone25

This, of course, is true - and I could definitely do that. Just not sure about getting that nuts with a lease. And...it begs the question why more of that isn't present to begin with, at least in my mind.

Valid point regardless.

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

What are you expecting to compromise if you go with the mustang?

I'd like to hear your pros/cons between the 2 cars and why you feel the Mustang would be a better buy (on paper).

Are you comparing e/b or v6 vs m235i? Does the e/b also come with the LSD?

Good question...

Since BMW has compromised themselves, & have slowly given up (or have gotten away from) their own secret sauce, I fear the only thing Mustang owners will compromise is a tad bit of lux, & some fit & finish. Hardly worth the premium BMW is trying to ask.

I think the trade off between a Mustang & 2-series is substantial though, as anyone who ever owned a 135i, or driven in one, will tell you that car needed a LSD to be competent... so much so... that BMW welded the diff so it couldn't be done & compete with the M3... in which nobody wanted anyways because it was sooo big.

Then came the 1M, to prove the point.



Fast forward a few years & now BMW artificially limits the M235i not based on actual competition, but to save face from it's own older siblings (M3/4)... by facetiously asking $3,300 for a LSD..! Thus, making the real asking price for a M235i at $47,000.. with no options!

Yes, the LSD is standard on all mustangs, even the $27,000 v6.



Coincidentally, it doesn't matter what Mustang you compare the M235i too. The EB with a tune will have 350ft-lbs and the v8 is already a monster. Both are roughly $8 ~$15,000 less than the 235i. And from all indications is a much better handler than the 2-series. So... I just don't see what BMW is giving you, over the new Mustang. In the past it was easy... independent rear. Now, BMW doesn't have that in it's favor any more. Plus, buying a $47,000 M235i with no options (except lsd) pales in comparison, to knowing a GT350 is about $50k and a Corvette starts at $53... let alone the GT being $36,000.

Ironically, anyone buying a 235i, can afford to buy any Mustang they want... and then have CHEAP repairs and massive aftermarket to play with... you are a Mustang guy, do you know how much aftermarket stuff you can buy for a Mustang for $3,300..? (The cost of a LSD). But I am quite sure some BMW exec is laughing, knowing some people think //M emblems.. makes you car a better handler, or adds value to your non-lsd sport car..! You buy a lot of potential in the M235i, unfortunelty you can't drive that potential until BMW unlocks it from your wallet...



Sorry, not to thread-crap.. but I have a 135is and suffering from a form of buyers remorse... I wish my car didn't have run flats, CDV and came with a much needed LSD, so I can place the backend where I want it and not have it do something different each time.. despite that, I still consider the 135is one of the best focal cars BMW has produced in 10 years. (minus sunroof, plz)

I am essentially driving around in an expensive Half-Car. Waiting for the M2 to rear it's head... to fix the known (and engineered) hurdles that BMW put in place by it's marketing arm.

For me...? If the M2 is just a glorified M235i, then I will buy a SVT. Why not?

[BLK235iNJ]

All great points.

For me I drifted away from the Mustang platform because of the way it drove, its size, and additionally fit, finish and visibility. This is totally based on the 2013 model. I felt that in order for the Mustang to win me back Ford would have to do much more than the IRS (which it appears they did).

At this point (as a new bmw owner) I feel my car would benefit from the LSD but at the same time I'm not sure how much more I would like the car (I'm very happy with it). When I compare my BMW experience to my Ford I see that with the BMW I can make it a little better... With my Ford I felt like I needed to upgrade or change much of the car.

I hope they nail the s550. If they do I will go with the SVT. I'm done buying the mass produced versions. They depreciate heavily. I like what I read in a review. It pointed back to the fox body dna in the new Mustang. At 2700lbs you were able to toss the Fox body around. I hope this is the case for the 3800lbs new Mustang.


FYI, I'm looking around my area for a dealer that has one and I'm noticing they are listing them for 40k plus. One is listed at 47k and I've seen the anni edition listed for close to 60k.

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Good question...

Since BMW has compromised themselves, & have slowly given up (or have gotten away from) their own secret sauce, I fear the only thing Mustang owners will compromise is a tad bit of lux, & some fit & finish. Hardly worth the premium BMW is trying to ask.

I think the trade off between a Mustang & 2-series is substantial though, as anyone who ever owned a 135i, or driven in one, will tell you that car needed a LSD to be competent... so much so... that BMW welded the diff so it couldn't be done & compete with the M3... in which nobody wanted anyways because it was sooo big.

Then came the 1M, to prove the point.



Fast forward a few years & now BMW artificially limits the M235i not based on actual competition, but to save face from it's own older siblings (M3/4)... by facetiously asking $3,300 for a LSD..! Thus, making the real asking price for a M235i at $47,000.. with no options!

Yes, the LSD is standard on all mustangs, even the $27,000 v6.



Coincidentally, it doesn't matter what Mustang you compare the M235i too. The EB with a tune will have 350ft-lbs and the v8 is already a monster. Both are roughly $8 ~$15,000 less than the 235i. And from all indications is a much better handler than the 2-series. So... I just don't see what BMW is giving you, over the new Mustang. In the past it was easy... independent rear. Now, BMW doesn't have that in it's favor any more. Plus, buying a $47,000 M235i with no options (except lsd) pales in comparison, to knowing a GT350 is about $50k and a Corvette starts at $53... let alone the GT being $36,000.

Ironically, anyone buying a 235i, can afford to buy any Mustang they want... and then have CHEAP repairs and massive aftermarket to play with... you are a Mustang guy, do you know how much aftermarket stuff you can buy for a Mustang for $3,300..? (The cost of a LSD). But I am quite sure some BMW exec is laughing, knowing some people think //M emblems.. makes you car a better handler, or adds value to your non-lsd sport car..! You buy a lot of potential in the M235i, unfortunelty you can't drive that potential until BMW unlocks it from your wallet...



Sorry, not to thread-crap.. but I have a 135is and suffering from a form of buyers remorse... I wish my car didn't have run flats, CDV and came with a much needed LSD, so I can place the backend where I want it and not have it do something different each time.. despite that, I still consider the 135is one of the best focal cars BMW has produced in 10 years. (minus sunroof, plz)

I am essentially driving around in an expensive Half-Car. Waiting for the M2 to rear it's head... to fix the known (and engineered) hurdles that BMW put in place by it's marketing arm.

For me...? If the M2 is just a glorified M235i, then I will buy a SVT. Why not?

[danimal]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

For me...? If the M2 is just a glorified M235i, then I will buy a SVT. Why not?

Length - 188.3

[jbenington86]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Fast forward a few years & now BMW artificially limits the M235i not based on actual competition, but to save face from it's own older siblings (M3/4)... by facetiously asking $3,300 for a LSD..! Thus, making the real asking price for a M235i at $47,000.. with no options!

For me...? If the M2 is just a glorified M235i, then I will buy a SVT. Why not?

BMW will likely put the M2 on par with the M3/M4 for the reason you mentioned above. What would be the point of selling a car that performs better at a lower price? That would be a bad business model and current M3/M4 owners would not be happy customers.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by jbenington86

BMW will likely put the M2 on par with the M3/M4 for the reason you mentioned above. What would be the point of selling a car that performs better at a lower price? That would be a bad business model and current M3/M4 owners would not be happy customers.

The M4 beats the M6 to 60 and around a track, doesn't it? The M6 has a stronger engine and costs more...

[ORIGIN M.]

Just buy a Quaife and call it a day. You do have one of the best cars they've made in over 10 years. SVT? Forgetaboutit!

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Good question...

Since BMW has compromised themselves, & have slowly given up (or have gotten away from) their own secret sauce, I fear the only thing Mustang owners will compromise is a tad bit of lux, & some fit & finish. Hardly worth the premium BMW is trying to ask.

I think the trade off between a Mustang & 2-series is substantial though, as anyone who ever owned a 135i, or driven in one, will tell you that car needed a LSD to be competent... so much so... that BMW welded the diff so it couldn't be done & compete with the M3... in which nobody wanted anyways because it was sooo big.

Then came the 1M, to prove the point.



Fast forward a few years & now BMW artificially limits the M235i not based on actual competition, but to save face from it's own older siblings (M3/4)... by facetiously asking $3,300 for a LSD..! Thus, making the real asking price for a M235i at $47,000.. with no options!

Yes, the LSD is standard on all mustangs, even the $27,000 v6.



Coincidentally, it doesn't matter what Mustang you compare the M235i too. The EB with a tune will have 350ft-lbs and the v8 is already a monster. Both are roughly $8 ~$15,000 less than the 235i. And from all indications is a much better handler than the 2-series. So... I just don't see what BMW is giving you, over the new Mustang. In the past it was easy... independent rear. Now, BMW doesn't have that in it's favor any more. Plus, buying a $47,000 M235i with no options (except lsd) pales in comparison, to knowing a GT350 is about $50k and a Corvette starts at $53... let alone the GT being $36,000.

Ironically, anyone buying a 235i, can afford to buy any Mustang they want... and then have CHEAP repairs and massive aftermarket to play with... you are a Mustang guy, do you know how much aftermarket stuff you can buy for a Mustang for $3,300..? (The cost of a LSD). But I am quite sure some BMW exec is laughing, knowing some people think //M emblems.. makes you car a better handler, or adds value to your non-lsd sport car..! You buy a lot of potential in the M235i, unfortunelty you can't drive that potential until BMW unlocks it from your wallet...



Sorry, not to thread-crap.. but I have a 135is and suffering from a form of buyers remorse... I wish my car didn't have run flats, CDV and came with a much needed LSD, so I can place the backend where I want it and not have it do something different each time.. despite that, I still consider the 135is one of the best focal cars BMW has produced in 10 years. (minus sunroof, plz)

I am essentially driving around in an expensive Half-Car. Waiting for the M2 to rear it's head... to fix the known (and engineered) hurdles that BMW put in place by it's marketing arm.

For me...? If the M2 is just a glorified M235i, then I will buy a SVT. Why not?

[3.0L]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Good question...

Since BMW has compromised themselves, & have slowly given up (or have gotten away from) their own secret sauce, I fear the only thing Mustang owners will compromise is a tad bit of lux, & some fit & finish. Hardly worth the premium BMW is trying to ask.

For me...? If the M2 is just a glorified M235i, then I will buy a SVT. Why not?

There's a little more to the equation for some of us and that's customer service, particularly in the service department area. My Mercedes and BMW people treat me like a dignitary arriving at a 5-star hotel. My past Ford dealer treated me poorly and had about as much class as a McDonalds drive through.

[Mark's M]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

All great points.

For me I drifted away from the Mustang platform because of the way it drove, its size, and additionally fit, finish and visibility. This is totally based on the 2013 model. I felt that in order for the Mustang to win me back Ford would have to do much more than the IRS (which it appears they did).

At this point (as a new bmw owner) I feel my car would benefit from the LSD but at the same time I'm not sure how much more I would like the car (I'm very happy with it). When I compare my BMW experience to my Ford I see that with the BMW I can make it a little better... With my Ford I felt like I needed to upgrade or change much of the car.

I hope they nail the s550. If they do I will go with the SVT. I'm done buying the mass produced versions. They depreciate heavily. I like what I read in a review. It pointed back to the fox body dna in the new Mustang. At 2700lbs you were able to toss the Fox body around. I hope this is the case for the 3800lbs new Mustang.


FYI, I'm looking around my area for a dealer that has one and I'm noticing they are listing them for 40k plus. One is listed at 47k and I've seen the anni edition listed for close to 60k.

Well I've just finished pouring over all of the '15 Mustang reviews and to me...and I repeat, these are my thoughts....they were underwhelming. Man I'm getting pissed. Everything's coming up underwhelming these days lol.

dm....might take you up on the weekend M235 drive thing if my CA is up to it. And I'll report back of course. But I think, after today's Mustang news (and I was seriously considering it), it'll come down to the M2 unless I lose my mind and spend a heck of a lot more on a C63 which I think will be fairly stunning.

As for tailoring an M2 as your buddy Chack would prefer to be able to do but wouldn't, my thoughts are similar. Only people I've trusted with my BMW's have been at my dealership (yup, they're that good) using Dinan performance mods. But if all this stuff about the N55's reliability being stretched as it approaches the 360hp range is true, then Dinan wouldn't want to touch it and jeopardize their conservative approach to performance with warranty.

I'll have to wait and see but honestly I just don't f'n know what I want anymore lol.

[2+3=5]

Originally Posted by 3.0L

There's a little more to the equation for some of us and that's customer service, particularly in the service department area. My Mercedes and BMW people treat me like a dignitary arriving at a 5-star hotel. My past Ford dealer treated me poorly and had about as much class as a McDonalds drive through.

hmm but isn't that what you expect from McDonalds/Ford?

[Lucky13]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Good question...

Since BMW has compromised themselves, & have slowly given up (or have gotten away from) their own secret sauce, I fear the only thing Mustang owners will compromise is a tad bit of lux, & some fit & finish. Hardly worth the premium BMW is trying to ask.

I think the trade off between a Mustang & 2-series is substantial though, as anyone who ever owned a 135i, or driven in one, will tell you that car needed a LSD to be competent... so much so... that BMW welded the diff so it couldn't be done & compete with the M3... in which nobody wanted anyways because it was sooo big.

Then came the 1M, to prove the point.



Fast forward a few years & now BMW artificially limits the M235i not based on actual competition, but to save face from it's own older siblings (M3/4)... by facetiously asking $3,300 for a LSD..! Thus, making the real asking price for a M235i at $47,000.. with no options!

Yes, the LSD is standard on all mustangs, even the $27,000 v6.



Coincidentally, it doesn't matter what Mustang you compare the M235i too. The EB with a tune will have 350ft-lbs and the v8 is already a monster. Both are roughly $8 ~$15,000 less than the 235i. And from all indications is a much better handler than the 2-series. So... I just don't see what BMW is giving you, over the new Mustang. In the past it was easy... independent rear. Now, BMW doesn't have that in it's favor any more. Plus, buying a $47,000 M235i with no options (except lsd) pales in comparison, to knowing a GT350 is about $50k and a Corvette starts at $53... let alone the GT being $36,000.

Ironically, anyone buying a 235i, can afford to buy any Mustang they want... and then have CHEAP repairs and massive aftermarket to play with... you are a Mustang guy, do you know how much aftermarket stuff you can buy for a Mustang for $3,300..? (The cost of a LSD). But I am quite sure some BMW exec is laughing, knowing some people think //M emblems.. makes you car a better handler, or adds value to your non-lsd sport car..! You buy a lot of potential in the M235i, unfortunelty you can't drive that potential until BMW unlocks it from your wallet...



Sorry, not to thread-crap.. but I have a 135is and suffering from a form of buyers remorse... I wish my car didn't have run flats, CDV and came with a much needed LSD, so I can place the backend where I want it and not have it do something different each time.. despite that, I still consider the 135is one of the best focal cars BMW has produced in 10 years. (minus sunroof, plz)

I am essentially driving around in an expensive Half-Car. Waiting for the M2 to rear it's head... to fix the known (and engineered) hurdles that BMW put in place by it's marketing arm.

For me...? If the M2 is just a glorified M235i, then I will buy a SVT. Why not?

Sorry not to thread crap really! You have brought up the same bullshit in at least 20 threads and always say how great the new Mustang is. Reality check, 435hp V8 in 4.4 seconds and about 12.8 which is the same as an M235. You and 5 million other people should go ahead and drive your Buicks ( 3,800 lbs plus 15 mpg). Sounds like 1970 with the "new" Mustang. I saw 5.6 0-60 on the Ecocrap model which the 228 could do in reverse. Buy a Mustang man please and quite spewing this BS on every thread. Go to the Ford owners blogs please and quit this shit because I'm sick of reading your crap.

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Sorry not to thread crap really! You have brought up the same bullshit in at least 20 threads and always say how great the new Mustang is. Reality check, 435hp V8 in 4.4 seconds and about 12.8 which is the same as an M235. You and 5 million other people should go ahead and drive your Buicks ( 3,800 lbs plus 15 mpg). Sounds like 1970 with the "new" Mustang. I saw 5.6 0-60 on the Ecocrap model which the 228 could do in reverse. Buy a Mustang man please and quite spewing this BS on every thread. Go to the Ford owners blogs please and quit this shit because I'm sick of reading your crap.

Man I was holding off and wanted to be nice...glad you said it

[golf_234]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

If it makes any difference, I love my 135is..

But I am not going to keep it, because it is lacking for a $51k sports car..
If BMW wants to get serious, then start to include a LSD, and drop the CDV... otherwise BMW will continue to get soft reviews and ho-hum credit from it's community.

If my car had come with a LSD and no CDV, I don't think I would be looking at the new Mustang. BMW has gone soft and decided to fill that gap with marketing... the 2-series drives worse than a caddy ATS.


Honestly, BMW's hubris is just too much... like a slap in the face, that their $44,000 cars don't come with a much needed LSD. While a $27 Mustang does..

If you love Mustang so much, why on earth are you on the BMW forum telling us all how much you love the Mustang. It is just weird dude. Like if you really did like it that much, wouldn't you be on the Mustang forum talking with those people? Just stop! Completely off topic. Noone gives a damn about the Mustang. We are here, in this thread, discussing the 135 vs. 235. These are BMW enthusiasts that care about the company and heritage of BMW. Like cool, I like the 458 Italia... Should I go talk about it on 17 different threads on the BMW M2 forum about how Ferrari makes phenomenal sportscars? No. I should not. Because it is basic common sense.

[jbenington86]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Reality check, 435hp V8 in 4.4 seconds and about 12.8 which is the same as an M235. You and 5 million other people should go ahead and drive your Buicks ( 3,800 lbs plus 15 mpg). Sounds like 1970 with the "new" Mustang.

My favorite part of your post.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Mark's M

Well I've just finished pouring over all of the '15 Mustang reviews and to me...and I repeat, these are my thoughts....they were underwhelming. Man I'm getting pissed. Everything's coming up underwhelming these days lol.

dm....might take you up on the weekend M235 drive thing if my CA is up to it. And I'll report back of course. But I think, after today's Mustang news (and I was seriously considering it), it'll come down to the M2 unless I lose my mind and spend a heck of a lot more on a C63 which I think will be fairly stunning.

As for tailoring an M2 as your buddy Chack would prefer to be able to do but wouldn't, my thoughts are similar. Only people I've trusted with my BMW's have been at my dealership (yup, they're that good) using Dinan performance mods. But if all this stuff about the N55's reliability being stretched as it approaches the 360hp range is true, then Dinan wouldn't want to touch it and jeopardize their conservative approach to performance with warranty.

I'll have to wait and see but honestly I just don't f'n know what I want anymore lol.

The nice thing is that you have time AND choices - because of the timing of the end of my 135 lease, I had to get something, and so the M235 fit what made sense to me (having never driven one) as the next logical step in my hopeful progression to a true M car.

I really think you could get a good idea in a weekend with the M235 - you could drive on highways, in traffic, on backroads, etc...and then figure out if it buttered your bread or not.

It really is a good car - and not great - but perhaps that's the point of the M performance line. Perhaps it is only supposed to whet your appetite...the problem for a small group of potential buyers, like us, is that we came from the older school versions of BMW - hydraulic steering, less computer aids, etc. - so while the M235 might feel very very good to someone coming from say a Lexus IS350, it can feel worse in ways coming from the E82 platform.

Still a very good car. I am hoping BMW makes the M2 great...