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      11-11-2014, 02:38 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmallTownBoy View Post
In your own words, DCT has gone from being "...the only gearbox option to have.." to "...a contributing factor in wining [sic] many of the performance benchmarks..."

I strongly disagree with your first quote and completely agree with your second. There are many reasons to buy a "performance car." Probably the most important for a lot of people is the purely subjective "fun factor". We've been telling you this for about 2.5 pages of posts.

The end.
Not sure who you mean by 'we've', when you are clearly in the minority.

The two quotes that you are quoting are basically the same, didn't realise you were going to analyse them word for word. From a purely performance perspective, the DCT will win the benchmark tests, does that make it clearer.

Don't get me wrong though, I fully agree with you that the most important reason to buy any enthusiasts car is the smile it brings to your face, if that is a MT for you then so be it, for the majority it is a DCT. I never purchase purely on performance specs alone, they make up only part of the equation.
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      11-11-2014, 02:49 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
LOL, not sure how you got that, as I never mentioned displacement.

Power to weight ratio. Not hp per liter- why would you care? .
If you are going to compare engines, you need to compare apples with apples, otherwise we can start debating all sorts of engines that have absolutely no basis in comparison, 3 cylinder Vs V12 hell why stop there get the W16. Equally power to weight makes no sense, are you calculating the weight of the engines alone, or the vehicles, are one of the vehicles a striped out quarter miler, and the other an SUV?

HP per litre is the only way to measure one engines greater output over another, that is engineering 101.
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      11-11-2014, 11:22 AM   #135
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Once the M2 will be available at your BMW dealer (Winter 2015-2016), do yourself a favor and drive the MT and the DCT back-to-back + let us know your thoughts. For now, it's all speculation which version will best suit your taste. Different strokes for different folks.
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      11-11-2014, 11:30 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
Don't get me wrong though, I fully agree with you that the most important reason to buy any enthusiasts car is the smile it brings to your face, if that is a MT for you then so be it, for the majority it is a DCT. I never purchase purely on performance specs alone, they make up only part of the equation.
Sure, but your post that got this started was:
Quote:
..if you want a performance car such as the M2, then in fact the DCT is the only gearbox option to have, all measurable benchmarks will be markedly superior with the DCT. ...
Does that make it clearer?
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      11-11-2014, 12:45 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
HP per litre is the only way to measure one engines greater output over another, that is engineering 101.
"The only way"? The above isn't engineering 101, at best it's flawed middle school arithmetic. Engineering is comparing things to figure out which is better, and hp per liter is one of the simplest, least useful metrics.

There are advantages to "hp per liter" as a comparison tool. It's easy, because the data is readily available. It's also important in many race series (F1, etc), which limit displacement to equalize the field. In a street car, however, we basically care less, because there are no displacement rules.

What do we care about in an engine? Power output, obviously, because we want our car to achieve a certain performance. What next? Weight, for a sports car. The engine is the single heaviest thing in the car, so it dramatically effects the weight, balance, polar moment and hence handling of the car. An engine might make 200 hp per liter, but so what if it's heavy?

Imagine you're designing an Arial Atom, you'd like to put over 500 hp into it, and you've got a couple engines to chose from:

Nissan GT-R VR38 3.8L TT V6, 600 hp (Nismo)
Ariel Atom/ Hartley 3.0L V8, 500 hp

On paper both of these engines look comparable, 156 hp/ liter for the Nissan vs 167 hp/ liter for the Ariel seems pretty close. Until you consider: the Nissan engine weighs 608 lbs. The Atom engine weighs 198 lbs.

The production V8 Atom weighed 1213 lbs total. If they had used the GT-R engine it would have weighed 410 lbs more. Even with the 100 extra hp of the Nissan the car would have had a significantly worse power to weight ratio, and with an extra 410 lbs hanging behind the back axle handling would have been terrible.

This is an obviously extreme example to illustrate the point: HP per liter is virtually useless, either to a car designer or us as drivers. Hp per pound is far more important. And you can use it to compare engines of different displacements and cylinder counts, ie the 414 hp V8 from the M3 at 444 lbs vs the 335 hp, 429 lbs I6 from the 1M. It's not the only metric that's important, obviously, but its far better than HP per liter.

And on this far more important metric, high end normally aspirated motors trump turbos. At least in street cars. Follow?
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Last edited by Pete_vB; 11-11-2014 at 02:51 PM..
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      11-12-2014, 01:45 AM   #138
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You make a strong argument Pete vB, and at this point I'm happy that we can both agree to disagree and enjoy the discussion that we have had.

I also admire your passion and enthusiasm, it appears we are both as passionate about this subject as each other.

My hope is that BMW offer us the choice of gearbox that we both want, and that the M2 lives up to the high expectation that you and I both have for it.

Now, lets get back to discussing the merits of different shades of blue paint!

Cheers
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      11-12-2014, 08:43 AM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
You make a strong argument Pete vB, and at this point I'm happy that we can both agree to disagree and enjoy the discussion that we have had.

I also admire your passion and enthusiasm, it appears we are both as passionate about this subject as each other.

My hope is that BMW offer us the choice of gearbox that we both want, and that the M2 lives up to the high expectation that you and I both have for it.

Now, lets get back to discussing the merits of different shades of blue paint!

Cheers
Blue?!?! WTF?!?!?!
GREY!! Merits of the different shades of GREY!!!
You'd have to be a moron to get this car in blue. The extra weight and drag of the blue pigments will slow it down and make any true performance enthusiast cringe!!












Actually just hoping for something just a shade lighter than charcoal. Otherwise it will be black. I can't seem to get away from black on black BMW.
But some of those blue shades are quite nice.
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      11-12-2014, 02:58 PM   #140
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@Pete_vB and @Wilson

You both are enthusiasts. Thanks for the competitive fencing:
"En garde" (On guard) - "Ętes-vous pręts ?" (Are you ready ?) - "Allez !" (Go !).

Different topic, but same type of discussion: https://grrc.goodwood.com/road/drive...ing-new-bmw-m3 (Chris Harris - "Why are people beating up on the BMW M3 ?"). Enjoy the read.
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      11-26-2014, 12:41 AM   #141
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I have my doubts about bmw offering the M2 as manual transmission only.

Dct gives better performance numbers which is great for magazine quotes and bragging rights, I think bmw would want the faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

BMWs dct transmission gets rave reviews and it would be extremely easy for them to add it onto this car it doesn't make sense for them not to.
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