[RPM90]

Originally Posted by German1967

Well, you have to uncheck the RFT option on the M235xi to get PSS, but it is free of charge to get PSS and those come with a mobility kit.

Yes!
I see that now.
Thank you. I just learned something.

Correction:
Yes, you can get non RFT tires in the US.

And this is a great thing too as I am not a fan of RFT's.
With this option I may actually go ahead with getting a set of winter sport tires and run the non RFT's for summer.
On my last 2 BMW's I ditched the RFT's within a couple of months.

BTW, what comes in the "mobility kit"?
Thanks for the info.

[German1967]

Mobility kit: pump and sealant.
Now, with larger damage you will need either a donut spare (takes up trunk ******* or call for AAA/BMW Assist.
I really hope to not experience that situation too often.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by German1967

Mobility kit: pump and sealant.
Now, with larger damage you will need either a donut spare (takes up trunk ******* or call for AAA/BMW Assist.
I really hope to not experience that situation too often.

Yeah, I agree, I'd rather not use that stuff, it makes a mess of the wheel.
On my '09 135i and my current '13 335i I am running non RFT tires, and on both cars I luckily didn't have any issues with tires.
I figured I would just call BMW assist.

It's great that we at least have a non RFT option.

[augerpro]

Originally Posted by olaosunt

I doubt AWD is going to see any better 60ft than 1.6 with drag radials since the stock tires were not spinning in the first place .

He had to be spinning the all seasons. I could do it easily on mine, this car is seriously undertired with the all seasons. Switching to Bridgestone RE-11's and I get minimal to no spin depending on conditions.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

Seriously? You still don't understand that xDrive uses the brakes in all the models, including the front axle on versions with DPC?

The reference was for overall 3-series and 5-series. It was a BMW press document describing how standard xDrive works, and had nothing to do with any M model. Again, you clearly know little about how the systems work and aren't reading the references.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_xDrive

"Instead of a permanent torque split (which is featured in earlier systems), xDrive provides variable torque split between the front and rear axles through the use of a multi-plate wet clutch located in the gearbox on the output to the front drive shaft.

This setup allows xDrive to modulate the torque split between the front and the rear axles, which is normally split at 40:60 ratio. If wheel slip is detected by the ABS/DSC system, xDrive can react within a tenth of a second to redistribute up to 100% of the engine power to the front or rear axle.[1] The wet clutch is applied through a high speed electric servo motor turning a cam-shaped actuator disc.

xDrive is connected to the ABS and DSC systems. In the case that wheelspin or directional instability still occurs while xDrive is or has been modulating the torque split, DSC will brake independent wheels to regain traction and improve directional stability without driver intervention.

The front and rear differentials in xDrive vehicles are typically an open differential design, thus relying on brake application by the DSC system to transfer power from the slipping wheel to the wheel with traction."

you get it now?

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_xDrive

Ah, the Wikipedia xDrive article. Interesting piece. In fact, if you look, you'll find that I was one of the contributors.

Still, I've never been a big believer in Wikipedia as proof anything, but hey, what the hell, I need a laugh this morning.

Originally Posted by pikcachu

<Snipped paragraph 1, description of transfer case operation for front-to-rear torque distribution>

<Snipped paragraph 2, additional description of transfer case operation for front-to-rear torque distribution>

I did drop two paragraphs out, for length of post sake. They're discussing the center transfer system, and about all that info is available and undisputed in the discussion before this.

Originally Posted by pikcachu

xDrive is connected to the ABS and DSC systems. In the case that wheelspin or directional instability still occurs while xDrive is or has been modulating the torque split, DSC will brake independent wheels to regain traction and improve directional stability without driver intervention.

Ah, I see where you're going. You new claim is that xDrive still has nothing to do with the brakes, and that only the DSC system does. Yup, can just see you sitting there proudly looking at the Wikipedia entry saying "Now I've got him!". Time to break out the BIG RED LETTERS!

Of course this claim only works if this is (a) something new to the discussion and (b) a source that can't be easily overridden by a more authoritative source. That's the problem with Wikipeidia. As it can be edited by anyone, it's not really reliable. In fact, lots of edit wars there have occurred over information being added / removed because its attribution is suspect.

So let's go back to post #56 and the BMW document I linked to. The link is still good: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...92291466,d.cWc (same caveat about it downloading a Word file to your machine)". You'll find much of the information above in it, including information about xDrive and DSC interacting that I included in post 56 itself.

So, really, go back to post #56 and read it. See that part in bold? The one describing the function you have above and that I referenced? Functionally the same, isn't it? Talks about DSC being used to provide the transverse power distribution.

Because, remember, the issue is your insistence that an xDrive car can't shift torque side-to-side, as expressed back in post #58:

"If that's what you mean with vary torque side to side then you are right..... but it's really not varying anything... it's sending the same torque all the time to each wheel and then wasting the torque with the brakes"

Because that sets up the laugh of the day with your Wikipedia quote that reads [bold is mine] ....

Originally Posted by pikcachu

The front and rear differentials in xDrive vehicles are typically an open differential design, thus relying on brake application by the DSC system to transfer power from the slipping wheel to the wheel with traction."

you get it now?

I do get it! You're not only the guy who argues about things without looking at the other person's references, you're the guy who isn't even reading his own!

Seriously, after multiple posts yammering that xDrive has nothing to do with brakes and that power can't be transferred side-to-side, you're now posting that the system works by applying brakes and transferring power from one side to the other.


Oh, and let me save you the trouble of trying to memory hole the "can't do side-to-side power transfer" issue and move this into a "No, it's the DSC that does it, not xDrive!" regime. Do a bit of part searching first, and learn the difference between the DSC module that runs the system in RWD cars and the DXC module that runs the system in xDrive cars. Make sure you know what parts can and can't be turned off in each, especially in the DXC module. You could save your self some further embarrassment.

Or not. Your choice.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

And I suppose that right there is the crux of the argument.

In reality, your reaction time will probably be longer than the 0-60 delta. But in order to gain back that 10th of a second you are saddling the car with more weight.

So 100% of the time the car will be heavier which impacts everything else (braking, turning, top end, fuel economy, etc) for what, 2/10ths of a second? You'll be paying away those 200ms every time you stop at the gas pump and you have less horsepower getting to the wheels.

In reality the 235 doesn't have so much power that a sticky set of rubber, reasonable driver and LSD couldn't get it to hook up damn quick, especially in some place like Florida where the tires are going to be hot year round. Those of us in the cold north have the disadvantage of tires being cold which does not help things hooking up and AWD makes a bigger difference.

So that's the big question do you sacrifice everything else for something that has a minimal impact on the real time things take? If the OP's answer is yes, 0-60 or bust then he's made up his mind and the discussion is over.

Sacrifice everything? Thats a little dramatic. Its like carrying a friend around. How much harder is it on brakes, fuel consumption etc etc.? I couldnt imagine having AWD in a place that never gets snow. Whats the point?

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

Ah, the Wikipedia xDrive article. Interesting piece. In fact, if you look, you'll find that I was one of the contributors.

Still, I've never been a big believer in Wikipedia as proof anything, but hey, what the hell, I need a laugh this morning.




I did drop two paragraphs out, for length of post sake. They're discussing the center transfer system, and about all that info is available and undisputed in the discussion before this.



Ah, I see where you're going. You new claim is that xDrive still has nothing to do with the brakes, and that only the DSC system does. Yup, can just see you sitting there proudly looking at the Wikipedia entry saying "Now I've got him!". Time to break out the BIG RED LETTERS!

Of course this claim only works if this is (a) something new to the discussion and (b) a source that can't be easily overridden by a more authoritative source. That's the problem with Wikipeidia. As it can be edited by anyone, it's not really reliable. In fact, lots of edit wars there have occurred over information being added / removed because its attribution is suspect.

So let's go back to post #56 and the BMW document I linked to. The link is still good: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...92291466,d.cWc (same caveat about it downloading a Word file to your machine)". You'll find much of the information above in it, including information about xDrive and DSC interacting that I included in post 56 itself.

So, really, go back to post #56 and read it. See that part in bold? The one describing the function you have above and that I referenced? Functionally the same, isn't it? Talks about DSC being used to provide the transverse power distribution.

Because, remember, the issue is your insistence that an xDrive car can't shift torque side-to-side, as expressed back in post #58:

"If that's what you mean with vary torque side to side then you are right..... but it's really not varying anything... it's sending the same torque all the time to each wheel and then wasting the torque with the brakes"

Because that sets up the laugh of the day with your Wikipedia quote that reads [bold is mine] ....



I do get it! You're not only the guy who argues about things without looking at the other person's references, you're the guy who isn't even reading his own!

Seriously, after multiple posts yammering that xDrive has nothing to do with brakes and that power can't be transferred side-to-side, you're now posting that the system works by applying brakes and transferring power from one side to the other.


Oh, and let me save you the trouble of trying to memory hole the "can't do side-to-side power transfer" issue and move this into a "No, it's the DSC that does it, not xDrive!" regime. Do a bit of part searching first, and learn the difference between the DSC module that runs the system in RWD cars and the DXC module that runs the system in xDrive cars. Make sure you know what parts can and can't be turned off in each, especially in the DXC module. You could save your self some further embarrassment.

Or not. Your choice.

Great now you know more than wikipedia.... right...talk about credibility

xDrive on it's own "can't do side-to-side torque transfer" it's the DSC the one who brakes and makes the gimiki toque transfer... It's in bold and red... if you don't get it then so be it...

According to you then the RWD M235 can also transfer torque side to side as when one wheel slip then DSC will apply the brakes...

[kdog26372]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Sacrifice everything? Thats a little dramatic. Its like carrying a friend around. How much harder is it on brakes, fuel consumption etc etc.? I couldnt imagine having AWD in a place that never gets snow. Whats the point?

The point would be you want a car that drives about the same rain or shine. If you plan to tune the car even with a stage 1 you will fight for traction in 1st 2 gears with RWD while the AWD will just launch and go. That is unless you are the 1 guy on this forum that actually drives around with Mickey Thompson drag radials as his daily tire of choice.

To each there own, but I always tune my BMW's and I've gone the RWD w/tune route and while it was super fast up top, it was tricky at best to launch from a stop and even a slight drizzle in the air and forget about going anywhere quick. So yes, if you live in AZ or Southern Cal, and never get rain and can see the argument. But in a place like Florida that has some rain 1/3 of the days each year, I don't see that it's such an obvious choice. You'd have and AWD car that is great all the time or a RWD car that is great 2/3 of the time. I can see the argument either way, most can't.

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Dont get me wrong i have nothing against AWD. My favorite car is a GTR ( AWD) but there is something about the BMW being AWD , it just does not feel like a BMW.
Test drive both and you might understand what i mean.

I've had several RWD BMWs and several AWD BMWs and each one felt (handling & performance) like a BMW..
In fact, IMO my current 228i xDrive cabrio feels about identical to what I remember the M235i RWD coupe felt like when I test drove it last year.
Maybe at the performance margins there's a diff, but not in regular daily city and highway driving conditions.

[Turbo_435i]

Originally Posted by bimmerfile

I've had several RWD BMWs and several AWD BMWs and each one felt (handling & performance) like a BMW..
In fact, IMO my current 228i xDrive cabrio feels about identical to what I remember the M235i RWD coupe felt like when I test drove it last year.
Maybe at the performance margins there's a diff, but not in regular daily city and highway driving conditions.

Do u like the acceleration of awd better ?

[OpenAir]

As I just picked up my 228i two weeks ago, I couldn't really tell any difference between the awd or rwd implementation during my test drives. Both pulled hard and felt great in the twisties. I opted for the rwd for weight and to slide the rear end out in corners when available...

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by kdog26372

The point would be you want a car that drives about the same rain or shine. If you plan to tune the car even with a stage 1 you will fight for traction in 1st 2 gears with RWD while the AWD will just launch and go. That is unless you are the 1 guy on this forum that actually drives around with Mickey Thompson drag radials as his daily tire of choice.

To each there own, but I always tune my BMW's and I've gone the RWD w/tune route and while it was super fast up top, it was tricky at best to launch from a stop and even a slight drizzle in the air and forget about going anywhere quick. So yes, if you live in AZ or Southern Cal, and never get rain and can see the argument. But in a place like Florida that has some rain 1/3 of the days each year, I don't see that it's such an obvious choice. You'd have and AWD car that is great all the time or a RWD car that is great 2/3 of the time. I can see the argument either way, most can't.

If youre tuned then maybe but I sure don't see it. RWD is sooo much more fun to drive. In torrential rain at speed AWD is great (I've had 5 Audis) but....

[moldcad]

Oh my - i have made another 2,000 km (which, considering my RWD/LSD M235i is 2-weeks-old, is technically doubling its mileage) - and your're still up and kicking to make this thread alive?!! With funny large, colorful fonts, and references to Wikipedia?

Guys, you really seem you don't have anything better to do. And I'll only take my liberty to repeat:

- yes, any AWD car (including xDrive BMW) is potentially better in putting the engine torque to the ground - but only for a first few hundreds of miles/kilometers (or the first few seconds from the standstill)

- yes, an AWD car (including xDrive BMW) provides this fake feeling of safety when a mediocre driver just wants to only take care of the steering wheel and the gas pedal

- YES: a real BMW is a front-engine, rear drive car; the more power/torque the engine provides, the more challenging it is for a self-demanding driver

- YES: a mechanical LSD can help such a driver in a good way, i.e. he still needs to to know more of what's he's doing (as opposed to the AWD driver), but the laws of physics fortunately start to actually help him in his conscious way of driving

Thank you for your attention (if any )...

[Turbo_435i]

Originally Posted by moldcad

Oh my - i have made another 2,000 km (which, considering my RWD/LSD M235i is 2-weeks-old, is technically doubling its mileage) - and your're still up and kicking to make this thread alive?!! With funny large, colorful fonts, and references to Wikipedia?

Guys, you really seem you don't have anything better to do. And I'll only take my liberty to repeat:

- yes, any AWD car (including xDrive BMW) is potentially better in putting the engine torque to the ground - but only for a first few hundreds of miles/kilometers (or the first few seconds from the standstill)

- yes, an AWD car (including xDrive BMW) provides this fake feeling of safety when a mediocre driver just wants to only take care of the steering wheel and the gas pedal

- YES: a real BMW is a front-engine, rear drive car; the more power/torque the engine provides, the more challenging it is for a self-demanding driver

- YES: a mechanical LSD can help such a driver in a good way, i.e. he still needs to to know more of what's he's doing (as opposed to the AWD driver), but the laws of physics fortunately start to actually help him in his conscious way of driving

Thank you for your attention (if any )...

Did not read.

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Great now you know more than wikipedia.... right...talk about credibility

OK, so on the list of things you don't know about (xDrive uses the brakes, the system transfers torque side to side, etc.) we can add that you're also clueless about Wikipedia.

It's a useful tool, but has little credibility. Anyone can edit the articles. Someone could go to the xDrive article in the next 5 minutes and edit it to read "Torque is shifted from front to back by magic pikcachus running blindly on the driveshafts with their heads up their backsides" and it would be there until someone bothered to erase it.

Wikipedia is useful as a place to start looking for correct information. No one would ever use it for attribution. It would get you failed if you tried to use it as a reference in a high school bookreport onwards.

Which is why you'll note that all my links have come from BMW. No magazine articles, no YouTube reviews, just BMW.

But, hey, you're impressed by Wikipedia. Why am I not surprised?

Originally Posted by pikcachu

xDrive on it's own "can't do side-to-side torque transfer" it's the DSC the one who brakes and makes the gimiki toque transfer... It's in bold and red... if you don't get it then so be it...

So let's get this straight. You've moved from "the brakes aren't involved and you can't transfer torque from side to side" to "the brakes are involved and you can transfer torque side to side", but you want to redefine xDrive to only include the transfer case and wave the "DSC does it" flag. And you think that quoting Wikipedia is the way to do it.

So you've conceded completely on how the car functions, but you want to continue to stomp your little feet and hold your breath until your face turns blue over semantics? Jeez, most of us outgrew that in grammar school.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

OK, so on the list of things you don't know about (xDrive uses the brakes, the system transfers torque side to side, etc.) we can add that you're also clueless about Wikipedia.

It's a useful tool, but has little credibility. Anyone can edit the articles. Someone could go to the xDrive article in the next 5 minutes and edit it to read "Torque is shifted from front to back by magic pikcachus running blindly on the driveshafts with their heads up their backsides" and it would be there until someone bothered to erase it.

Wikipedia is useful as a place to start looking for correct information. No one would ever use it for attribution. It would get you failed if you tried to use it as a reference in a high school bookreport onwards.

Which is why you'll note that all my links have come from BMW. No magazine articles, no YouTube reviews, just BMW.

But, hey, you're impressed by Wikipedia. Why am I not surprised?

your are so much fun

[Cyberdemon]

This thread sucks.

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by schybrid

Do u like the acceleration of awd better ?

Personally, I can't sense any difference in acceleration between the AWD 228i, the RWD 228i or the RWD M235i - but I don't take-off like a maniac.
All 3 of those variants I've driven feel identical in handling/performance - given the way I drive daily.
I guess that could (and probably would) be different if I tracked and/or auto-crossed my vehicles - which I don't.
I expect the noticeable difference in acceleration, handling and performance relating to AWD will show up when winter weather moves in.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

OK, so on the list of things you don't know about (xDrive uses the brakes, the system transfers torque side to side, etc.) we can add that you're also clueless about Wikipedia.

It's a useful tool, but has little credibility. Anyone can edit the articles. Someone could go to the xDrive article in the next 5 minutes and edit it to read "Torque is shifted from front to back by magic pikcachus running blindly on the driveshafts with their heads up their backsides" and it would be there until someone bothered to erase it.

Wikipedia is useful as a place to start looking for correct information. No one would ever use it for attribution. It would get you failed if you tried to use it as a reference in a high school bookreport onwards.

Which is why you'll note that all my links have come from BMW. No magazine articles, no YouTube reviews, just BMW.

But, hey, you're impressed by Wikipedia. Why am I not surprised?





So let's get this straight. You've moved from "the brakes aren't involved and you can't transfer torque from side to side" to "the brakes are involved and you can transfer torque side to side", but you want to redefine xDrive to only include the transfer case and wave the "DSC does it" flag. And you think that quoting Wikipedia is the way to do it.

So you've conceded completely on how the car functions, but you want to continue to stomp your little feet and hold your breath until your face turns blue over semantics? Jeez, most of us outgrew that in grammar school.

Originally Posted by pikcachu

your are so much fun

You two are whacked.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by bimmerfile

I expect the noticeable difference in acceleration, handling and performance relating to AWD will show up when winter weather moves in.

With equivalent tires, the AWD winter advantage is limited to getting moving. Braking and turning to stop or avoid safely are a function of the tires, hopefully dedicated winter tires. AWD with winters >RWD with winters>>>AWD with all season>RWD with all season. Modest difference between cars with similar tires; large difference between tires.

[Turbo_435i]

I could give a crap about xdrive for winter or braking etc, all i want it for is droppin da hammer bouncing off redline as a red light ninja.