[drivethemachine]

This turned out to be a good thread, that surprisingly stayed on topic for the most part
Thanks for all the responses.

The Porsche coldness I referred to in my first post is more due to the condescending attitude of the brand. When I ask why an oil change is $400 and they tell me the technicians are super highly trained and expensive. (Yet they manage to scratch my seat)
Or the fact that they now charge for PEC delivery (=PCD for bmw). And their infotainment is garbage (yes, even the 991.2).

On the flip side every interaction I had with BMW has been an orgy. European delivery, Spartanburg visits, UDE events, etc.
Which brings me to my point....feel like giving up the E46 would be giving up BMW. Both the Civic and the challenger would be the most sensible and practical choices to replace it, however the 240 would be the tru spiritual successor.
Honestly, if I was still shopping for the 911 I would just get an M4 and call it a day.

[5 minutes later]
Daaamn the drive home from work in the 911 was so awesome today! It was raining hard and coming down the hill on a twisty parkway, and I was pushing it relentlessly....felt like I was riding a cannonball.

[Viffermike]

Just to tempt y'all on this board ...

... this is Alli from the front:



And Alli from the back:



And this is a thread with some pics from that PEC Atlanta trip I mentioned earlier on 718Forum.com.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by drivethemachine

This turned out to be a good thread, that surprisingly stayed on topic for the most part
Thanks for all the responses ...

... And their infotainment is garbage (yes, even the 991.2).

If I may: PCM4 (Porsche Communication Management: Porsche's equivalent to iDrive) is eons better than its predecessors. The 911s didn't get PCM4 until sometime in the 2017 model year. Seriously: I'd revisit it again. (FYI: All 718s have PCM4. It was introduced in Macans in 2016; the 718s were the second model to receive it).

[USA-RET]

Personally, I'd love to have a Porsche parked next to my Mini in the garage. They are awesome cars but pricing and the elite-ism in virtually everything associated w/ the car, maintenance and repair of the product turns me off.

Yes, they are world class cars but for the average buyer (me) tough to justify initial cost and then the expense of ownership. I also love the Ferrari F12 and others, but the same applies to even a greater degree. Price a quart of "Ferrari" oil. At my income level I would be afraid to drive the car for fear of it breaking or getting damaged on the road.

Price the base Cayman S, nicely loaded (auto, nice stereo and nav -like the M240i) for $60 K and maintenance @ around $120 for oil changes, and I'd be on one. Configure an S like the M240i and your at $85K.

I drool every time I see a Cayman. But for me the M240i is a rather happy "settle for" car.

When you hear talk of the German performance car brands you'll generally hear Porsche, BMW and Mercedes mentioned. So I'd say if you own a BMW, you are in good company.

Of the three manufacturers mentioned, BMW seems to provide the most bang for the buck, and in their line of cars, the 2 series shines the brightest (IMO).

[wdc330i]

There are deals to be had. Our deal was a crazy fluke. I found a clerical error in the online price for our Boxster S, and the dealer honored it.

It basically covered the delta between the base and the S (about $10k). All in all, our fully loaded 718s was only about $20k more than our 240. And it's easily twice the car in performance.

That said, I love the 240 (especially after the MLSD install) and it is extremely easy to live with. Just practical enough to cover most car needs, and fun enough to make every trip a pleasure.

The 240 is my DD; spouse drives the Boxster. And we have an X5 for days the Porsche should stay in the garage (it's on summer tires; I've got all-seasons on the 2.)

And yes, the tech in the Porsche is head and shoulders ahead of the last iteration. Spouse even prefers its interface to our 2016 X5 (pre-Car Play).

[stevenvillatoro]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

Personally, I'd love to have a Porsche parked next to my Mini in the garage. They are awesome cars but pricing and the elite-ism in virtually everything associated w/ the car, maintenance and repair of the product turns me off.

Yes, they are world class cars but for the average buyer (me) tough to justify initial cost and then the expense of ownership. I also love the Ferrari F12 and others, but the same applies to even a greater degree. Price a quart of "Ferrari" oil. At my income level I would be afraid to drive the car for fear of it breaking or getting damaged on the road.

Price the base Cayman S, nicely loaded (auto, nice stereo and nav -like the M240i) for $60 K and maintenance @ around $120 for oil changes, and I'd be on one. Configure an S like the M240i and your at $85K.

I drool every time I see a Cayman. But for me the M240i is a rather happy "settle for" car.

When you hear talk of the German performance car brands you'll generally hear Porsche, BMW and Mercedes mentioned. So I'd say if you own a BMW, you are in good company.

Of the three manufacturers mentioned, BMW seems to provide the most bang for the buck, and in their line of cars, the 2 series shines the brightest (IMO).

I need to "DITTO" your entire post because it's exactly - word for word - why I chose the M240i over the Cayman.

Besides that, the admittedly-gorgeous Cayman is an attention whore, whereas I'd rather drive a de-badged sleeper. I'd rather sit a few inches higher and with more glass, both for better sightlines. And I couldn't even spec a moonroof on a Cayman.

The Cayman is the better car, in most respects. The M240i, however, is the better one for ME.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by drivethemachine

\ When I ask why an oil change is $400 and they tell me the technicians are super highly trained and expensive. (Yet they manage to scratch my seat)

This reminded me of emergency room visit I had once.....I asked for 1 Tylenol pill (I was already inside a hospital without a car) and they sent me a thousand dollar bill, I asked wtf, and they said we are highly skilled professionals

[USA-RET]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

This reminded me of emergency room visit I had once.....I asked for 1 Tylenol pill (I was already inside a hospital without a car) and they sent me a thousand dollar bill, I asked wtf, and they said we are highly skilled professionals

That's funny (even though it shouldn't be).

[XutvJet]

A Cayman S is high on my list for my next car. I still want to improve on my M235 though and I'm glad to hear that P car owners are saying the M235/M240 are good cars in comparison. My biggest gripe with my M235 (still stock engine wise), is the general lack of traction (even with well treaded MPSS tires), the open diff, and somewhat disconnected shock and/or spring tuning. I'll be adding an LSD soon but I really wish someone would develop some stiffer, near OEM ride height springs. With those two mods, I think the car would be elevated substantially. To me, it feels like BMW intentionally handicapped with car to keep it off the heals of the M2.

[USA-RET]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

To me, it feels like BMW intentionally handicapped with car to keep it off the heals of the M2.

The M240i is even closer to the M2. Fully expect BMW to do something to the next M2 (motor wise) to provide a larger gap between the two. Something around 400hp w/ 400+ lb ft of torque. However, they have to be careful as the M2 may exceed the M3/4 performance and then create another sales issue.

Dunno, maybe leave things as they are, since there is a gap (at least on paper) between the M240i and M2 and a gap between the M2 and the M3/4 cars.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I completely disagree with this, but YMMV. If I may proffer this: the P-cars may feel 'cold' to some partially because their limits are so much higher, and they tend not to become a handful until you're right at those limits.

I mentioned earlier that I've already taken my 718 on a 2,500-mile road trip. That trip was to PEC Atlanta to do just what you did: have some track time in a 718, as well as run it through a skidpad/skidplate/slalom, etc. to better understand how it behaves at its limits and beyond. The car is an absolute scalpel on the track; the toughest thing I encountered was fine-tuning the car's line on a parabolic curve (in 1.5 hours I'd added more than 8 MPH in speed on that curve).

Now I'm not going to sit here and say that I've driven a ton of cars on a track. I haven't. I have, however, driven a ton of cars (and motorcycles, natch) on public roads, and some for very long distances -- including the 718. That car has more soul on a back road than anything I've driven or ridden an appreciable distance, with two diametrically opposed exceptions:
- 2006 Ferrari F430
- 2006 Mini Cooper

Again, YMMV. But to say that a Porsche doesn't have soul is like saying Sophia Loren didn't have sex appeal.

I understand...didn't mean to say it has no soul...it's just not a reachable soul for most people on most roads...once I get around to doing a P school...I will probably have a much different view

Originally Posted by USA-RET

The M240i is even closer to the M2. Fully expect BMW to do something to the next M2 (motor wise) to provide a larger gap between the two. Something around 400hp w/ 400+ lb ft of torque. However, they have to be careful as the M2 may exceed the M3/4 performance and then create another sales issue.

Dunno, maybe leave things as they are, since there is a gap (at least on paper) between the M240i and M2 and a gap between the M2 and the M3/4 cars.

There is definitely a gap between the M2 and M3/M4, but having driven both at M school...almost everyone that got out of the M2 said wow...I'd have that! I suspect the rest of them didn't want to admit they'd spent too much on their M3/M4!

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

There is definitely a gap between the M2 and M3/M4, but having driven both at M school...almost everyone that got out of the M2 said wow...I'd have that! I suspect the rest of them didn't want to admit they'd spent too much on their M3/M4!

Sure after a day at the track in that mindset I am sure - perhaps not so much once back to real life.

[p912guy]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

A Cayman S is high on my list for my next car. I still want to improve on my M235 though and I'm glad to hear that P car owners are saying the M235/M240 are good cars in comparison. My biggest gripe with my M235 (still stock engine wise), is the general lack of traction (even with well treaded MPSS tires), the open diff, and somewhat disconnected shock and/or spring tuning. I'll be adding an LSD soon but I really wish someone would develop some stiffer, near OEM ride height springs. With those two mods, I think the car would be elevated substantially. To me, it feels like BMW intentionally handicapped with car to keep it off the heals of the M2.

Agree completely, however the 718S Boxster would be my choice. I also wish the m235i ride was a bit "tighter". I am pleased with the "adaptive" suspension, but I would prefer less body roll and more engagement out of the rear end. That said, I don't see the point of spending $2-5K or more on upgrades to my m235i by adding the LSD, upgraded suspension and brakes and possibly Dinan Stage 1 or 2. I'd much rather enjoy what I have (which is pretty darn good) and use those funds to either pay off outstanding debt on my m235i or for more of a down payment on the m235i replacement when the time comes.

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Sure after a day at the track in that mindset I am sure - perhaps not so much once back to real life.

I took part in an HPDE event and I had both an M3, M4 cab owner, and an M2 owner in shock that I was passing and lapping 3-4 seconds faster, all of us on PSS's (I was FBO with Dinan Suspension setup and M4 LCA). Also was passing P-cars (shotty drivers), C6 Vette, CTS-V, Mustang GT, too. I think too many people (namely men) feel they NEED more, or NEED the full on M car (or P car upgrade) to feel adequate, when in reality, they feel worse when this type of thing happens. It's because we CAN buy them, so we are always left with the fear of the next-best-thing coming out and outperforming the current model we own. This is a marketing team's success story, "keep them wanting more". I'm over it..

The m235i is so close in performance to the M2 on paper, all it takes is a fraction more skill to make the m235i faster, since it's a little harder to keep tame at the limit due to damping and softer bushings. Driver mod will always do more than a "better" or more "capable" car. Mods to the m235i only enhance the driving experience and allow the car to be more capable, at speeds. Replacing the car you are comfortable in already, is not always the best route. Hence the OP's consideration of returning to the 2..

The Caymen is in another league of performance and price, not going there, lol

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

I took part in an HPDE event and I had both an M3, M4 cab owner, and an M2 owner in shock that I was passing and lapping 3-4 seconds faster, all of us on PSS's (I was FBO with Dinan Suspension setup and M4 LCA).

Oh I don't disagree with you. I just meant that folks with an M3 instead of an M2 have one for reasons other than they purposely want to have less fun at the track or they hate money and want to get rid of it as quickly as possible. Things like kids and needing a back door get in the way of such decisions in the real world once you're away from play time with big boy toys at the track.

For OP, yes if going to one car the 2 makes sense. But to go along with a 911? I don't know man, argue all you want about driving dynamics but two cars that are coupes, tiny back seats, etc. probably not the way most of us would tie up our cash. Again, not track day. Real world.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

I took part in an HPDE event and I had both an M3, M4 cab owner, and an M2 owner in shock that I was passing and lapping 3-4 seconds faster, all of us on PSS's (I was FBO with Dinan Suspension setup and M4 LCA). Also was passing P-cars (shotty drivers), C6 Vette, CTS-V, Mustang GT, too. I think too many people (namely men) feel they NEED more, or NEED the full on M car (or P car upgrade) to feel adequate, when in reality, they feel worse when this type of thing happens. It's because we CAN buy them, so we are always left with the fear of the next-best-thing coming out and outperforming the current model we own. This is a marketing team's success story, "keep them wanting more". I'm over it..

The m235i is so close in performance to the M2 on paper, all it takes is a fraction more skill to make the m235i faster, since it's a little harder to keep tame at the limit due to damping and softer bushings. Driver mod will always do more than a "better" or more "capable" car. Mods to the m235i only enhance the driving experience and allow the car to be more capable, at speeds. Replacing the car you are comfortable in already, is not always the best route. Hence the OP's consideration of returning to the 2..

The Caymen is in another league of performance and price, not going there, lol

This and the R&T article on the 228i, M235i and M2 are the reasons why I went with the 230i when I ordered...as an 18k mi/year car, I don't need any more. Plus with the new Dinan tune I have and the soon to be added shockware, springs/bump stops and exhaust...it'll suffice!

[thebiglubinsky]

I too am thinking of coming back to the 2series. I currently have a 2016 Mercedes CLA45. The ride is just so stiff for daily driving. I'm sick of the crashing on every bump.

[LSU Tiger Wes]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

I took part in an HPDE event and I had both an M3, M4 cab owner, and an M2 owner in shock that I was passing and lapping 3-4 seconds faster, all of us on PSS's (I was FBO with Dinan Suspension setup and M4 LCA). Also was passing P-cars (shotty drivers), C6 Vette, CTS-V, Mustang GT, too. I think too many people (namely men) feel they NEED more, or NEED the full on M car (or P car upgrade) to feel adequate, when in reality, they feel worse when this type of thing happens.

I did the ///M Track Day at Circuit of the Americas. Paired up with a guy who owns an M2. His skill was a bit...lacking. He kept saying he thought there was something wrong with the car. At driver switch, he alerted the instructor to the "problem." Being polite, I kept my mouth shut about what I thought the problem actually was...

There wasn't another car immediately available, so not wanting to lose out on my track time, I said let's stick with the car. It didn't take long before he also noticed the real cause of the problem.

[pz619]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Just to tempt y'all on this board ...

... this is Alli from the front:



And Alli from the back:



And this is a thread with some pics from that PEC Atlanta trip I mentioned earlier on 718Forum.com.

Mike,

Does your car have the sport exhaust system??!

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Oh I don't disagree with you. I just meant that folks with an M3 instead of an M2 have one for reasons other than they purposely want to have less fun at the track or they hate money and want to get rid of it as quickly as possible. Things like kids and needing a back door get in the way of such decisions in the real world once you're away from play time with big boy toys at the track.

Yea most M3/4 owners I know and have met, are about rolling races and flogging the HP on the highway, lol. And having spent a fair amount of seat time in a stock M4 on it's journey to FBO I can attest that without an R compound track tire setup, it just roasts 1-3rd making it difficult to use the power, with the exception for roll racing and highway pulls. Even a stock M4 is tail happy, the power just comes on hard in the low range, compared to our N55's. It's fun, but can be a disease because you eventually feel like the car is slow, again, and keep hunting for more and more HP, thus further sacrificing the handling/driving experience. This is where real time spent on the track, and even in a simulator, can really make you appreciate a well sorted, less powerful car. I've had 10 second drag cars, and they're fun, but nowhere near the joy this m235 gives me on a circuit/ mountain road. I guess I've just grown to appreciate the smaller things.

D

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

This and the R&T article on the 228i, M235i and M2 are the reasons why I went with the 230i when I ordered...as an 18k mi/year car, I don't need any more. Plus with the new Dinan tune I have and the soon to be added shockware, springs/bump stops and exhaust...it'll suffice!

If I didn't do a ten year stretch of 1.8t/2.0T VW/Audi's I would have probably built a THP 228i and added and LSD, and same mods as I've done to the m235i. I just really missed the sounds of an inline 6 I had 4-5 VR6 equipped VW's in my teenage years and really mourned for a sweet sounding engine again. The turbo noises and lack of low end grunt really were the main reasons for my interest in a BMW. I also really wanted a RWD/6MT i6 Turbo car, before they became extinct, lol

To each their own, but I don't see anything wrong with the 228i aside from a little bit of power lost in the 2 missing cylinders. It's virtually the same car, imo. It probably feels a lot better in turn than the 6cyl counterpart, I'm sure. I can appreciate the light front end of a 4cyl vs 6cyl going from the VR6 to the 1.8T's.

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by LSU Tiger Wes

I did the ///M Track Day at Circuit of the Americas. Paired up with a guy who owns an M2. His skill was a bit...lacking. He kept saying he thought there was something wrong with the car. At driver switch, he alerted the instructor to the "problem." Being polite, I kept my mouth shut about what I thought the problem actually was...

There wasn't another car immediately available, so not wanting to lose out on my track time, I said let's stick with the car. It didn't take long before he also noticed the real cause of the problem.

Haha, that's awesome. Some of the guys at the event I was at were pretty cool about it, asking "where did you learn to drive like that".. Honestly, not a lot of real track time, but over 15k hours in a racing sim helps ..