[TheBat-Dad]

Great feedback, thanks everyone for your thoughts. Lots of different perspectives which helps.

I’m leaning towards a non thp, but only because that’s what is available and because I can use the savings for parts upgrades. The one hesitation I have is the brakes, as I would want to upgrade these as soon as possible. I did a lot of downhill mountain biking when I was younger, and brakes are easily the most important part of any setup, so I value them highly.

And unfortunately there isn’t anything locally to test drive, need a trip to Toronto soon.

[tripitz]

Originally Posted by TheBat-Dad

I’m leaning towards a non thp, but only because that’s what is available and because I can use the savings for parts upgrades. The one hesitation I have is the brakes, as I would want to upgrade these as soon as possible. I did a lot of downhill mountain biking when I was younger, and brakes are easily the most important part of any setup, so I value them highly.

Buy the car and then drive it. Then decide if the stock brakes are really that bad. They're actually quite good... The car is very light. For a 20-25 min session with good pads and good quality fluid, you will be fine. Do not assume that if you buy the M performance brakes that they will hold up under track use without good pads (e.g., non BMW oem) and good fluid...

What people forget is that a car is a system; if you have more brakes than grip, bigger/more brakes won't actually help you. I suspect that once you get to the point where you really need better brakes, you'll have made other upgrades and ultimately will want something even better than what BMW offers (e.g., AP racing).

Take your time and go slowly.

[nelsdvn]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

I'm really considering your path! But is this really that much cheaper? When i ran the numbers from https://www.getbmwparts.com/ i priced the suspension + springs $1200, and brakes $1800, but then i was thinking if you start with a non-sport you will need 18" wheels to clear the brakes, right? So add set of wheels and tires at ~$2000.... so a total of $5000.

Factor in labor as well. My dealer installed the brakes for the book labor rate. Can't recall exactly but it was a few hours at shop rate. Dealers will no longer install the M Performance Suspension on a 228/230 in the US. I paid an Indy shop $900 for install and alignment of the suspension. The brakes are bigger than the M Sports and do require 18" wheels. I already had 18's. This is the combo that I wanted. I'm pleased with the outcome. YMMV.

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by tripitz

What people forget is that a car is a system; if you have more brakes than grip, bigger/more brakes won't actually help you. I suspect that once you get to the point where you really need better brakes, you'll have made other upgrades and ultimately will want something even better than what BMW offers (e.g., AP racing).

Take your time and go slowly.

You make some really good points, but as a beginner/intermediate, it think the reasoning for more brakes is more often along the lines of safety than getting better lap times.

It's great to hear from someone the stock brakes can handle beginner/intermediate track use!

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by SteveInfante

The extra money spent on the M Sport or THP would be better suited to driving instruction.

The weakest link in any performance car is typically the skill of the driver, money spent there is never wasted. Start with an advanced car control course if you haven't taken one already, and go from there.

Driver training in the U.S. is pathetic to the point of being comical were we not talking about potential loss of life.

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by SteveInfante

@TheBat-Dad here's a different take on performance options. I bought the standard 228i 6MT because it was basic and balanced. I planned on upgrading this at my own pace and paying for things twice isn't my idea of smart. I also subscribe to the thought process of "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast that a fast car slow" camp. At your skill level of performance driving why not just get the standard version and modify as your skill increases. The extra money spent on the M Sport or THP would be better suited to driving instruction. That's an invaluable investment if you plan on getting into this hobby.

Does it lean a bit, yes. Does it understeer, yes. All things you need to learn to manage as a new driver before you start modding. I mean new in the HPDE sense. The only thing I would upgrade starting out is the brake system.

I totally agree with everything you say... however, being married, and communicating expenses with my wife, this expensive hobby initially appeared even more expensive than it is when I was addressing things as they come. And i'm just talking about simple stuff i wanted/needed: camber plates, alignments, dedicated wheel/tire set, performance exhaust,, struts/shocks. I would have loved to get as much as possible with the purchase of the car to avoid avoid these conversations with my wife .... lol

[230iZTR]

I think the track package is a must-have if ordering new for the incredible value it is, but if you’re buying used and planning on upgrading the wheels, tires, suspension, and brakes anyway for the sake of track duty you might as well get the least optioned / cheapest / lightest car that’s depreciated more as a result of having fewer options and use the savings to upgrade to parts that are better than what you’d get with the track package...especially as a second car where you won’t miss the creature comforts.

KW Clubsports, M-Performance brakes, a wavetrac LSD, and a set of 17 x 8.5” wheels with some square 245mm sport tires will beat the pants off of an OEM track package car. The big hurdle for that plan is that zero-option stripper cars seem to be even rarer than track package cars. I ordered my stripper + ZTR new because I got so tired of looking for used examples.

Sportline or M-sport is a must though. The luxury seats are terrible for sporty driving. Unless, of course, you’d plan to replace those as well.

Edit: Honestly though...if this is the second car that you’re acquiring merely as an introductory motorsport hobby toy, get a used FRS / BRZ / 86. The Twins’ Aisin A960E is only a little bit worse than BMW’s ZF8, but as a tuning platform the 86 twins have way more industry support, a way bigger community, will be far cheaper to operate, and are a better learning tool. Theyre the epitome of great handling but not fast like you’re looking for...unless a sexy coupe silhouette is not subdued enough for the wife.

[TheBat-Dad]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

I totally agree with everything you say... however, being married, and communicating expenses with my wife, this expensive hobby initially appeared even more expensive than it is when I was addressing things as they come. And i'm just talking about simple stuff i wanted/needed: camber plates, alignments, dedicated wheel/tire set, performance exhaust,, struts/shocks. I would have loved to get as much as possible with the purchase of the car to avoid avoid these conversations .... lol

This is actually a non-trivial consideration. It's a lot easier to buy more car, as that's one point of conversation, then buy less car and slowly upgrade the parts. Each upgrade is a PITA conversation, that a better stocked car to begin with might avoid.

Originally Posted by 230iZTR

I think the track package is a must-have if ordering new for the incredible value it is, but if you’re buying used and planning on upgrading the wheels, tires, suspension, and brakes anyway for the sake of track duty you might as well get the least optioned / cheapest / lightest car that’s depreciated more as a result of having fewer options and use the savings to upgrade to parts that are better than what you’d get with the track package...especially as a second car where you won’t miss the creature comforts.

KW Clubsports, M-Performance brakes, a wavetrac LSD, and a set of 17 x 8.5” wheels with some square 245mm sport tires will beat the pants off of an OEM track package car. The big hurdle for that plan is that zero-option stripper cars seem to be even rarer than track package cars. I ordered my stripper + ZTR new because I got so tired of looking for used examples.

Sportline or M-sport is a must though. The luxury seats are terrible for sporty driving. Unless, of course, you’d plan to replace those as well.

Edit: Honestly though...if this is the second car that you’re acquiring merely as an introductory motorsport hobby toy, get a used FRS / BRZ / 86. The Twins’ Aisin A960E is only a little bit worse than BMW’s ZF8, but as a tuning platform the 86 twins have way more industry support, a way bigger community, will be far cheaper to operate, and are a better learning tool. Theyre the epitome of great handling but not fast like you’re looking for...unless a sexy coupe silhouette is not subdued enough for the wife.

FRZ/BRZ/86 have been on my list since I started searching, but the engine gives me a lot of pause (I know it's probably good enough for me). I'm also not looking for a strict motorsport car as I am intending this car to serve multiple purposes, track-work being one of them.

Some time down the road, when I have a 3 car garage, then I'd love to do a full track car build, but that might involve a miata with a ls swap. Oh how one can dream.

[chiefneil]

Hey guys, visiting from the F30 (3-series) forum as I’ve been looking at CPO 228is myself.

I have a 2014 335i with the equivalent of what’s now called THP. As a rookie track driver myself, I would point out to the OP that I’ve been to the track in both my bone-stock 1995 325i sport, and later my 2002 330i sport. Stock brakes were 100% fine both times.

If you’re planning on tracking via BMW CCA, the sessions are short enough that newbs in moderately-powered cars are not going to outrun their stock brakes. BMW stock brakes are pretty good, and I didn’t experience any fading or warping even after sessions where I was comfortable with the track and running about 9/10ths or more.

Regarding the suspension portion of THP, what you get there is adjustable dampers. They’re great for a daily driver where you want a more comfortable ride with passengers. But from many comments over on the F30 forum, the sport setting isn’t necessarily any firmer/better than the static sport dampers. So IMHO the suspension portion of THP is desirable if you want a softer ride option, not if you want a firmer option (vs the static sport dampers).

So on THP I think the OP could take it or leave it. Don’t be afraid to get a straight up m-sport without THP and go hit the track for the first time. You’ll be fine. After that first session if you felt you were hitting close to 9/10ths or 10/10ths, then you can upgrade the brakes. Look at the cost of standard m-sport brakes (rotors/pads/calipers) vs the m-perf version. They’re actually identical with the exception of the rotors which are the same size. The only difference is that the m-perf rotors are dimpled and slotted, IIRC, which looks fabulous but again might be overkill for someone in the novice category. Those fabulous looks come with an extra 1-2k price tag, too. So you can save some money on the m-sport (blue) brakes and get enough performance for the track.

Hope that helps, and good luck!

[nelsdvn]

One minor correction on the M Perf Brakes. The front rotors are 370mm instead of the 340mm M Sport brakes. Otherwise the above is a great post.

[Miata13]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

The weakest link in any performance car is typically the skill of the driver, money spent there is never wasted. Start with an advanced car control course if you haven't taken one already, and go from there.

Driver training in the U.S. is pathetic to the point of being comical were we not talking about potential loss of life.

Agreed totally...and why I've been involved in Tire Rack's Street Survival Program for many years. www.streetsurvival.org. Its certainly gratifying to see young drivers develop actual car control skills!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Miata13

Agreed totally...and why I've been involved in Tire Rack's Street Survival Program for many years. www.streetsurvival.org. Its certainly gratifying to see young drivers develop actual car control skills!

Completely agree again with both of you. I sent both of my kids to Bob Bondurant Teen Age Defensive Driving near Phoenix for the 2 day course when they first got their licenses. Great hands-on training and has made a difference in some close calls for them.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by Miata13

Agreed totally...and why I've been involved in Tire Rack's Street Survival Program for many years. www.streetsurvival.org. Its certainly gratifying to see young drivers develop actual car control skills!

That's really cool, didn't know such a thing existed. Sounds like a "lite" version of the BMW course, so focus on the really important safety stuff and skip some of the race car fun. Also 10% of the cost and comes to you, so really nothing to be lost by signing everyone in the family up.

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Completely agree again with both of you. I sent both of my kids to Bob Bondurant Teen Age Defensive Driving near Phoenix for the 2 day course when they first got their licenses. Great hands-on training and has made a difference in some close calls for them.

I am firmly of the opinion that more education is always good, assuming the instructors are half way competent. Training + appropriate car = safe kiddos.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

I am firmly of the opinion that more education is always good, assuming the instructors are half way competent. Training + appropriate car = safe kiddos.

I took the course at the same time with my oldest child. Was assigned my own Mustang. Instructors were excellent and classroom and driving course drills were very educational.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I took the course at the same time with my oldest child. Was assigned my own Mustang. Instructors were excellent and classroom and driving course drills were very educational.

How long was the course, a few hours? At BMW they pair you up for a full day, and the lady who ended up on her own did 2x the driving and looked like she'd had enough at lunchtime. Can make for a long day.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

How long was the course, a few hours? At BMW they pair you up for a full day, and the lady who ended up on her own did 2x the driving and looked like she'd had enough at lunchtime. Can make for a long day.

Two full days with option for a third for road course work.

[TheBat-Dad]

Update, for those interested. Bit of a read but a fun story nonetheless that I thought was worth sharing.

Test drove a 228i auto, without the track package. Actually really liked it, had enough pep and even didn't sound half bad. Was pretty impressed and thought it was the one, however when I checked out the carfax it came up as being originally from Quebec, and I have heard enough horror stories that I decided to pass on that particular model.

Kept searching, but didn't have much luck. When I originally started looking it seemed like there was a lot of 228's that fit what I was looking for, but after I test drove this one, it kinda became the only one left. I decided to broaden my search, including an M235i. I found a perfect one, with the options I wanted, CPO, and even convinced the wife to go way over budget as it was listed for $32.9k. Problem was I called the dealer and they had just sold it that day. Boo.

Search went on, tried a Mustang GT, bleh, bloated and didn't feel athletic at all. Scion FRS, lots of fun around the corners but didn't feel like enough car for what I wanted. Even tried a 1996 328is that a guy poured his heart, soul, and $$$$$ into making a beast of a build, but alas the frakenstein nature turned me off, although it was a sweet car.

End of the day I kept coming back to the Camaro. Eventually convinced the wife to test drive a local 2018 V6. She actually didn't mind it (although wasn't enthused by any means), but had got to the point where she just wanted it be over. Problem with this model was it was $39k, and didn't even have many options.

Low and behold one day I was browsing autotrader and I came across a demo 2017 V6 1LE, for $30k flat. A smoking deal at $10k off MSRP. I had been scoping this specific model out for a long time, as I had heard great things, but always thought it would be out of my reach. At $30k though I could justify it. Problem now was, it was in Quebec (hey, still new, so not as scary as used), and of course being the track package it was stick shift. Don't think I mentioned, but I had never owned a stick-shift car before, and had only driven one a couple times around a parking lot.

After lots of convincing, the wife relented. Perfect, now I need to learn how to drive stick. Thankfully I had a friend who took me out in a beater old hyundai for an afternoon. Certainly wasn't perfect by any means, but I had enough confidence to at least drive in traffic.

Pickup time. I took the train to Rawdon, Quebec (hour-ish north of Montreal) to get the car. Dealership was easy to work with, no problems. Took some pictures with the sales guy and then wave goodbye (although I probably should have test drove it...but I was getting it anyway so I didn't bother). Get in the car, telling myself 'I can do this!' I make it out of the parking lot fine, but my first red light I stalled. And then I stalled again. And again. Probably took a good 3-4 red light cycles before I could get it. Bunch of french people shaking their fists at me, not my proudest moment. Either way I managed to get it going and find a back road where I could practice. Didn't take much more work after that, but it was a bit of an adventure navigating windy back roads in the middle of nowhere poutines-ville.

Anyways, I absolutely LOVE this car. I know this is a BMW forum, but thought I would share my story as you folks gave me some good advice. The handling is simply incredible, inspires so much confidence in the corners. The V6 is surprisingly quick too, and sounds awesome. I have already taken it to the track 4 times (had it just over a month), and it is seriously impressive. Can do laps all day no problem, and is keeping up with cars that cost much more.

And the visibility gripe is overblown, had no problems. Although I can understand why people are put off by it.

Probably won't post much more here, for obvious reasons. But if anyone is heading to Shannonville for lapping nights, keep an eye out for me, I'll probably be there!

A couple pictures:

[3rdcoast228i]

Thanks for the update and congrats on the car! I went the opposite way, I was looking at Camaros when I found the perfect spec CPO 228i Msport that fit the budget too.

[Hops128i]

Great car! The v6 1le is very under appreciated! What are you doing for track tires? The stock sizes seem kind of weird and expensive, 245/40R20 front tires and 275/35R20 rear.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by TheBat-Dad

2017 V6 1LE...I had been scoping this specific model out for a long time

Congratulations on your new purchase!

I cross-shopped the 1LE, too, although I was looking at the SS. Both the V8 and the V6 offer a LOT of car for the money. A welcome bonus compared to the BMW is that you don't have to drop ~$3K+ on a limited slip differential, which is an essential part on a track car.

Originally Posted by Hops128i

Great car! The v6 1le is very under appreciated! What are you doing for track tires? The stock sizes seem kind of weird and expensive, 245/40R20 front tires and 275/35R20 rear.

Consumables are what steered me away from the Camaro, as you will indeed spend a lot on tires. Many track guys square them up with 18s or 19s - still expensive, but less so.

[Rayscott]

I own a 2016 228ix Msport without THP. I don't track it so it is fine for my needs. And AWD comes in handy if we get a little snow. Dinan muffler and CAI give it a better sound.

[TheBat-Dad]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

Great car! The v6 1le is very under appreciated! What are you doing for track tires? The stock sizes seem kind of weird and expensive, 245/40R20 front tires and 275/35R20 rear.

The stock tires are actually pretty damn good, despite being run flats. Once they wear out though (fine so far...) I’ll definitely get something else as they are very pricey. Certainly one downside to this car is the 20” wheels, wish they were 18-19s, would make it a lot easier. I believe the stock wheels are around 32lbs, so I am tempted to a new set anyways, but im pretty sure 18s dont fit because of the brakes.

As for what to replace with, id love Michelin Pilots, but they are real expensive too. Rumour has it the local car club has a hookup on toyo tires at 40% off, and although I dont know much about toyo as a peformance brand, that kind of discount is worth checking out. So to be determined.