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      11-20-2015, 12:30 PM   #1
kdog26372
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E85 mix w/AA8 tune

I've got hi flow catted downpipe and AA8 box set at 1 notch above default setting. Power has been solid with no hiccups. Yesterday I added 3 gallons of E85 to 10.7 gallons of 93 octane which in IL has 10% ethanol. Which would put me at E26 overall (assuming the E85 isn't already reduced for Winter already) The car pulls noticeable harder at all rpm's and is smooth as can be with better throttle response.

Don't think I'll make this a habit, but would like to honestly. I understand a flash tune or JB stage 2 are recommended for adding E85, but at lower levels like this, is there much risk if any? My understanding is that you can create a too lean condition with too much ethanol and no timing adjustment for this. Was thinking of doing just 2 gallons which would be E20; my understanding is that Brazil is E25, soon to be E27 and BMWs there are the same with no adjustments to handle the extra ethanol, so my logic would be E20 should be ok as I haven't heard of a high failure rate in Brazil for BMWs or any other newer car for that matter because of the higher ethanol content. In the winter most E85 is closer to E60 or E70 so even less ethanol till next Spring. The corrosion thing is really a concern for cars built prior to the 90's from the research I've found. So really just the too lean condition which I guess my question is at E20-E25 is this even viable concern when countries already have this?

Thoughts, comments, concerns appreciated.
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      11-20-2015, 02:32 PM   #2
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It concerns me as the AA tune is not optimized to run E85..
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      11-20-2015, 03:16 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog26372
I've got hi flow catted downpipe and AA8 box set at 1 notch above default setting. Power has been solid with no hiccups. Yesterday I added 3 gallons of E85 to 10.7 gallons of 93 octane which in IL has 10% ethanol. Which would put me at E26 overall (assuming the E85 isn't already reduced for Winter already) The car pulls noticeable harder at all rpm's and is smooth as can be with better throttle response.

Don't think I'll make this a habit, but would like to honestly. I understand a flash tune or JB stage 2 are recommended for adding E85, but at lower levels like this, is there much risk if any? My understanding is that you can create a too lean condition with too much ethanol and no timing adjustment for this. Was thinking of doing just 2 gallons which would be E20; my understanding is that Brazil is E25, soon to be E27 and BMWs there are the same with no adjustments to handle the extra ethanol, so my logic would be E20 should be ok as I haven't heard of a high failure rate in Brazil for BMWs or any other newer car for that matter because of the higher ethanol content. In the winter most E85 is closer to E60 or E70 so even less ethanol till next Spring. The corrosion thing is really a concern for cars built prior to the 90's from the research I've found. So really just the too lean condition which I guess my question is at E20-E25 is this even viable concern when countries already have this?

Thoughts, comments, concerns appreciated.
Hmmm yeah of AA didn't adjust for the correct mixture I would stay away from it honestly.

I run 4-5gallons of E85 and 10gallons of 93. But my flash tune is optimized for it. And yes it does pull way better and harder. I've had no issues besides piss poor mpg
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      11-20-2015, 04:16 PM   #4
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I guess my argument is if Brazil is E25 and nothing adjusted from BMW for this, then does the ECU not already have some level of tolerance for ethanol? MN is trying to make E15 mandatory, what then? Nobody can drive a car in MN because car was not designed for this?

Not trying to convince myself, just want actual fact/knowledge/logs on the subject vs. opinions. I do appreciate the opinions, as they get me thinking, but having say E20 in a car when E15 is already used around the country doesn't seem like it wouldn't fit tolerances. But, also don't want to trash engine for extra 20-30 HP.

I guess if the JB stage 2 guys that can log and have used E20 or E25 or whatever could share experience on what they are seeing if there weren't using autotune map. Is car really running too lean on these lower ethanol levels? From what I've read on various forums it seems going over E30 is when things become a concern and need custom tune or JB stage 2. People were running aggressive Cobb map and E30 mix before Cobb came out with E30 map and while you won't get same power as a true tune designed for E30 mix, you don't get the timing pulls of an aggressive map.

I may try 1 gallon of E85 as this would be E15; if I still get similar power benefits and 1/2 the country already uses E15 and is EPA approved on all vehicles newer than 2001 stick with that. Basically looking to optimize the setting on my AA8 tune as it has clearly been pulling power with 93 octane as when I went to E25 the power was noticeable and I didn't adjust the tune at all. We'll see maybe not worth the discussion or effort long-term.
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      11-25-2015, 11:44 AM   #5
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A gallon or 2 likely isn't an issue but without datalogging the vehicle and looking at fuel trims, AFR, ETC you are doing it blindly, which I don't recommend. For octane purposes, a little extra E85 usually helps you just need to have enough fuel ceiling in the tune.
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      12-02-2015, 10:45 PM   #6
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Ok, update on this...I did get a CEL and some stumbling after a few days and as the weather turned much cooler. Really had to go very light on throttle until warmed up. The power with roughly E25 was fantastic, but the CEL and as others have pointed out flying blindly not knowing if running too lean or whatever just isn't worth the risk.

It is too bad AA8 can't make one of the 8 settings a higher ethanol map as it is a very popular method with our cars for adding significant power. I may go with JB4 after winter as it now can be installed it seems without any wire taps which is appealing and also seems better matched to my car now that I have a hi-flo downpipe and desire to run perhaps E20-25 on a regular basis. Flash tune would be great, but under warranty and want a solution I can return to stock for any issues.

One question I have on the JB4 is I thought I read it only turns the tune on after the engine oil is warmed up. This is great, but what about the fact that if you are running E25, it seems you would always want that part of the tune to be on at all times to have proper air/fuel? I must admit I'm not entirely familiar with JB4, so maybe my concerns aren't warranted and the tune does exactly what I'd want.
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      12-03-2015, 09:42 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog26372 View Post
Ok, update on this...I did get a CEL and some stumbling after a few days and as the weather turned much cooler. Really had to go very light on throttle until warmed up. The power with roughly E25 was fantastic, but the CEL and as others have pointed out flying blindly not knowing if running too lean or whatever just isn't worth the risk.

It is too bad AA8 can't make one of the 8 settings a higher ethanol map as it is a very popular method with our cars for adding significant power. I may go with JB4 after winter as it now can be installed it seems without any wire taps which is appealing and also seems better matched to my car now that I have a hi-flo downpipe and desire to run perhaps E20-25 on a regular basis. Flash tune would be great, but under warranty and want a solution I can return to stock for any issues.

One question I have on the JB4 is I thought I read it only turns the tune on after the engine oil is warmed up. This is great, but what about the fact that if you are running E25, it seems you would always want that part of the tune to be on at all times to have proper air/fuel? I must admit I'm not entirely familiar with JB4, so maybe my concerns aren't warranted and the tune does exactly what I'd want.
The JB4 doesn't adjust boost and other parameters until oil is warmed up, i.e. doesn't increase your power until oil is warmed up enough for the turbo wheel etc to handle it safely.

It still adjusts air/fuel etc safely to handle the engine running different fuels with the flex fuel wire harness.

I'd highly recommend switching over to JB4, it is much more adjustable for the user based on what you want. I am not sure if the F series N55 offers this but a lot of my friends run a back end flash on their FBO N54 JB4 cars to allow smoother running on different fuels etc
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      12-03-2015, 11:41 AM   #8
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Yeah I think after my next oil change I'll probably make the switch as I'll take the AA8 out anyway. As with anything, once I felt the extra power E25 can provide it really spoils you to want that feeling back. The AA8 is great for a stock car, but I think once you add downpipe and/or want to use some E85 in the tank, it isn't able to adapt to those mods.
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      12-03-2015, 01:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog26372 View Post
Yeah I think after my next oil change I'll probably make the switch as I'll take the AA8 out anyway. As with anything, once I felt the extra power E25 can provide it really spoils you to want that feeling back. The AA8 is great for a stock car, but I think once you add downpipe and/or want to use some E85 in the tank, it isn't able to adapt to those mods.
Not sure why Active wouldn't optimize their tune to handle it considering all the sensors are easily accessible and I know Active have the tuning capabilities..
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      12-03-2015, 01:36 PM   #10
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Yep that would be great if they would, but for whatever reason they're sticking with stage 1 tune. I frankly see no point to have 8 dial settings when they don't recommend you ever change from the default level 6 setting unless you use race gas. Seems so simple, yet I'm not an engineer and I don't work for them, so we essentially have 2 options JB4 or custom tune. Custom tune is irreversible and all E85 isn't E85, by me the pump says could be as low as E60, so you really need an adaptable tune to run it, like what appears to be Map 5 on JB4. I suppose the custom tune would be ok if the mix was really using E85 all the time, but just wouldn't be optimal.

Not changing until Spring, so maybe something better is out at that point.
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      12-03-2015, 09:22 PM   #11
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Kdog, that would be because all of the "stage1 tunes" are not really "tunes" in the sense you think they are. They are glorified boost controllers and absolutley nothing else. They cannot alter anything beyond adding boost. All 2-3 sensor "stage 1" tunes are like this. AA8, BMS, AFE, RC, etc.
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      12-03-2015, 11:24 PM   #12
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Not sure where you are in Chicago, but Kenosha isn't too far away. If you want assistance let me know. JB4 install is pretty straight forward, although the EGW connections can be a bit of a pain. DP is a nice upgrade worth considering also.
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      12-04-2015, 10:58 AM   #13
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Hey thanks, I may take you up on that offer in the Spring. I already have a downpipe from Fabspeed, so I'm all set with that.

Kevin
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      12-04-2015, 02:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casper83 View Post
Not sure where you are in Chicago, but Kenosha isn't too far away. If you want assistance let me know. JB4 install is pretty straight forward, although the EGW connections can be a bit of a pain. DP is a nice upgrade worth considering also.
Any tips on EWG connections? I can't get it unconnected for the life of me
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      12-04-2015, 04:27 PM   #15
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try one of these
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexc93 View Post
Any tips on EWG connections? I can't get it unconnected for the life of me
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      12-09-2015, 09:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexc93 View Post
Any tips on EWG connections? I can't get it unconnected for the life of me
I struggled for a bit too, but this did the trick:
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      12-09-2015, 10:31 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casper83 View Post
I struggled for a bit too, but this did the trick:
How did you fit this tool down there..I feel like there is too much piping to fit this as well as my hand?

Is the clip on the top or bottom which needs to be unhooked? as i cant see down there even
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      12-14-2015, 12:05 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexc93 View Post
How did you fit this tool down there..I feel like there is too much piping to fit this as well as my hand?

Is the clip on the top or bottom which needs to be unhooked? as i cant see down there even
Picture is deceiving, it's a small tool (overall length is only 6"). I don't remember what the clip looks like as it's been so long since I did it. I'll try to take a look tonight.
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      12-14-2015, 12:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casper83 View Post
Picture is deceiving, it's a small tool (overall length is only 6"). I don't remember what the clip looks like as it's been so long since I did it. I'll try to take a look tonight.
I appreciate the help, it didn't help that the engine was so hot when I tried it, but when I get around to installing my downpipe I will take another try. Really wanting to be able to utilize map 5 once i'm catless
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      12-15-2015, 12:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexc93 View Post
I appreciate the help, it didn't help that the engine was so hot when I tried it, but when I get around to installing my downpipe I will take another try. Really wanting to be able to utilize map 5 once i'm catless
My picture already shows the connection to the JB4, but hopefully you can see how to release the connector.

If I remember correctly the special handshake is pushing the pick into the area shown which pushes down the tab that needs to be released. You then pull the connector out. It's somewhat counter intuitive to push the pick in one direction while pulling the connector back towards it. I think that's why the pick does a particularly good job in this application. Once it pushed in a little ways you can rotate the handle which will in turn pry the release tab down, rather than just jamming the pick in there with more force.

Hope this helps.
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      12-15-2015, 09:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casper83 View Post
My picture already shows the connection to the JB4, but hopefully you can see how to release the connector.

If I remember correctly the special handshake is pushing the pick into the area shown which pushes down the tab that needs to be released. You then pull the connector out. It's somewhat counter intuitive to push the pick in one direction while pulling the connector back towards it. I think that's why the pick does a particularly good job in this application. Once it pushed in a little ways you can rotate the handle which will in turn pry the release tab down, rather than just jamming the pick in there with more force.

Hope this helps.
Wow this is perfect, thanks very much mate! Someone at BMS should add something like this to the instruction manual.
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