[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Never really understood going from summers to A/s. Winters stop faster on cold pavement than A/s. To each his own.

My writing could have been clearer. I intend to replace my PSS with AS3 tires as my three season tire. Then, I will swap to winters. I will be checking out interest for anyone who wants PSS with only 1600 miles on them. We have too short a season here to really enjoy them for a while.

[chaswyck1]

I will be getting through the winter quite nicely on my Michelin PSS tires. It was 78 degrees here today. Sorry, I couldn't help it!

Originally Posted by 335BOY

they probably wont crack but are USELESS on cold roads. You stand zero chance of getting through a winter on summer tires. i got caught doing early changeover a couple of years ago. Car is undrivable on any snow or ice and you are a liability on cold pavement.

[rhinothatflies]

I'm planning on wrapping the stock 18's with winter boots and then getting myself a set of summer wheels in March or April. Does that sound feasible? Do price and available tires significantly change when moving up from 17 inch wheels?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by rhinothatflies

I'm planning on wrapping the stock 18's with winter boots and then getting myself a set of summer wheels in March or April. Does that sound feasible? Do price and available tires significantly change when moving up from 17 inch wheels?

I haven't checked sizes for my top two preferred winter tires, Michelin X Ice xi3 and Blizzak WS80, but I am quite sure pricing does go up. I read from your other posts that you may be a fugitive from California traffic enforcement, so this "winter" thing may be a new experience. The optimal tread width is 215. You can find those in a 17....I think (not sure) that 225 is the narrowest 18, and by all means, don't go beyond that to 235 or 245! And, don't fall for any "winter performance" tires, which are not great at either!

My Track Package 18" wheels with PSS tires have 1600 miles on them and are in winter storage. If that kind of set up interests you, since we are so close, shoot me a note as we get to the end of Winter. I am seriously thinking of going the other way and getting some BBS 17" wheels with Michelin AS3 tires as my three-season (really 2.5 with our weather) set-up on the lousy Michigan roads.

[shark715]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I am ready to give up more handling/steering "feel" for the winter, put on my "Volvo" mindset, and get all the tire traction I can possibly find, and that is where the WS tire prevails over all others.

I respectfully disagree. I've owned both the WS and Michelin Xice3. I thought winter traction and braking were comparable (excellent for both) and Tire Rack's testing seems to have conformed this. But the WS has substantially less tread life. I assume that is because the rubber is so soft, you can notice how much softer by just running your finger over the tread. The other thing is as the WS tread wears down, it seems to lose it's winter abilities much faster than the Michelin. If Tire Rack was to test tires that are 50% worn, I believe they would see a huge difference in winter ability (both traction and braking) between these two tires. Finally, to get this level of winter ability, you don't have to give up handling to the extent you do with the WS. The Xice3 has substantially better handling. I think even an average driver would quickly notice the difference, it's that obvious. Always felt to me like the WS's had relatively sloppy handling because of soft sidewalls. On the other hand, the WS's were the more comfortable riding tire by a noticeable margin, assume again that has to do with soft sidewalls.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by shark715

I respectfully disagree. I've owned both the WS and Michelin Xice3. I thought winter traction and braking were comparable (excellent for both) and Tire Rack's testing seems to have conformed this. But the WS has substantially less tread life. I assume that is because the rubber is so soft, you can notice how much softer by just running your finger over the tread. The other thing is as the WS tread wears down, it seems to lose it's winter abilities much faster than the Michelin. If Tire Rack was to test tires that are 50% worn, I believe they would see a huge difference in winter ability (both traction and braking) between these two tires. Finally, to get this level of winter ability, you don't have to give up handling to the extent you do with the WS. The Xice3 has substantially better handling. I think even an average driver would quickly notice the difference, it's that obvious. Always felt to me like the WS's had relatively sloppy handling because of soft sidewalls. On the other hand, the WS's were the more comfortable riding tire by a noticeable margin, assume again that has to do with soft sidewalls.

I respect your opinion, and both brands make excellent tires. Are you basing your assessment on WS80 or a prior model? Tire Rack's testing of WS80 does seem to pick a clear "best of the best", which aided my purchase decision.

[rhinothatflies]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I haven't checked sizes for my top two preferred winter tires, Michelin X Ice xi3 and Blizzak WS80, but I am quite sure pricing does go up. I read from your other posts that you may be a fugitive from California traffic enforcement, so this "winter" thing may be a new experience. The optimal tread width is 215. You can find those in a 17....I think (not sure) that 225 is the narrowest 18, and by all means, don't go beyond that to 235 or 245! And, don't fall for any "winter performance" tires, which are not great at either!

My Track Package 18" wheels with PSS tires have 1600 miles on them and are in winter storage. If that kind of set up interests you, since we are so close, shoot me a note as we get to the end of Winter. I am seriously thinking of going the other way and getting some BBS 17" wheels with Michelin AS3 tires as my three-season (really 2.5 with our weather) set-up on the lousy Michigan roads.

thanks for the thought! however my 228i has the track package so i'll already have the set up you've got in storage. i was wondering about going up to 19's and how that would fare in michigan roads. will need to do some research on winter tire pricing in the 18" range.

[Wheelwright]

Originally Posted by shark715

Always felt to me like the WS's had relatively sloppy handling because of soft sidewalls. On the other hand, the WS's were the more comfortable riding tire by a noticeable margin, assume again that has to do with soft sidewalls.

The guy lives in Michigan: "the Land of the Pothole" therefore I think he made a correct choice by going with the softest 17inch winter setup available. This will protect wheel-rims and suspension as well as minimize rattles.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by rhinothatflies

thanks for the thought! however my 228i has the track package so i'll already have the set up you've got in storage. i was wondering about going up to 19's and how that would fare in michigan roads. will need to do some research on winter tire pricing in the 18" range.

19s in Michigan? You know a good spinal surgeon and have budget for rim replacements?

[shark715]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I respect your opinion, and both brands make excellent tires. Are you basing your assessment on WS80 or a prior model? Tire Rack's testing of WS80 does seem to pick a clear "best of the best", which aided my purchase decision.

Yes WS80. I don't agree that Tire Rack seemed to pick a clear "best of the best". I assume you are looking at the same Tire Rack test as I am where they tested both of these against a Yokohama and a Dunlop. The WS80 had slightly better acceleration and the Xice had slightly better braking, so i thought the results of the test were a draw, which pretty much mirrors my personal experience (that the tires, when new, seem to have similar winter capabilities) In fact Tire Rack said there was not a significant difference in the test results for all 4 tires. Here's their summary: "If you want surefooted traction on winter's most slippery roads, Studless Ice & Snow tires deliver when it comes to ice traction. All four tires in our test performed well in our ice acceleration and braking test, with a small advantage for the Bridgestone Blizzak and Michelin X-Ice Xi3 tires. Not too far behind were the Yokohama iceGUARD iG52c and Dunlop Winter Maxx tires." In terms of winter ability I would not at all agree with you that the WS80's "prevails over all others" (even when brand new). Beyond that the WS80's seem to lose their winter abilities far quicker than the Xice3, and at least for me, that's just as important as their abilites when they are brand new. Perhaps that explains why the Xice3's have a 40k miles treadlife warranty, and the WS80's have no treadlife warranty at all. Of course my observation is completely seat of the pants, and I'm no expert. Too bad Tire Rack did not test tread life and also re-run the winter ability tests after the tires were half worn.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by shark715

Yes WS80. I don't agree that Tire Rack seemed to pick a clear "best of the best". I assume you are looking at the same Tire Rack test as I am where they tested both of these against a Yokohama and a Dunlop. The WS80 had slightly better acceleration and the Xice had slightly better braking, so i thought the results of the test were a draw, which pretty much mirrors my personal experience (that the tires, when new, seem to have similar winter capabilities) In fact Tire Rack said there was not a significant difference in the test results for all 4 tires. Here's their summary: "If you want surefooted traction on winter's most slippery roads, Studless Ice & Snow tires deliver when it comes to ice traction. All four tires in our test performed well in our ice acceleration and braking test, with a small advantage for the Bridgestone Blizzak and Michelin X-Ice Xi3 tires. Not too far behind were the Yokohama iceGUARD iG52c and Dunlop Winter Maxx tires." In terms of winter ability I would not at all agree with you that the WS80's "prevails over all others" (even when brand new). Beyond that the WS80's seem to lose their winter abilities far quicker than the Xice3, and at least for me, that's just as important as their abilites when they are brand new. Perhaps that explains why the Xice3's have a 40k miles treadlife warranty, and the WS80's have no treadlife warranty at all. Of course my observation is completely seat of the pants, and I'm no expert. Too bad Tire Rack did not test tread life and also re-run the winter ability tests after the tires were half worn.

No, I read a different test they had....head-to-head with X-Ice xi3. That one may still be posted. The link is below. The test you read was conducted on ice, but they point out they are still waiting for their snow testing. This prior test referred to below was conducted on snow. The braking distance difference on snow alone made my decision clear.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=191

And, I do realize it was at a Bridgestone event, but it remains Tire Rack's assessment. As to wear, I am on my third season with WS70 on one car, and tread depth is quite adequate, so I am not experiencing the wear you describe. As a disclaimer, I become a very different driver in the "season from hell", so I am probably not treating the tires the same way as you or others. I reserve all of my fun for the other three seasons. However, you make a great point about testing tires half-worn....would be quite interesting.

[shark715]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I am on my third season with WS70 on one car, and tread depth is quite adequate, so I am not experiencing the wear you describe.

It's not that the WS80's are wearing unusually fast. My overall experience with winter tires is that you generally can't expect to get great tread life, and I've long assumed that's due to the soft tread compound. What's notable is that I seem to be getting double the tread life on the Xice3's versus any previous winter tire I've owned.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I haven't checked sizes for my top two preferred winter tires, Michelin X Ice xi3 and Blizzak WS80, but I am quite sure pricing does go up. I read from your other posts that you may be a fugitive from California traffic enforcement, so this "winter" thing may be a new experience. The optimal tread width is 215. You can find those in a 17....I think (not sure) that 225 is the narrowest 18, and by all means, don't go beyond that to 235 or 245! And, don't fall for any "winter performance" tires, which are not great at either!

My Track Package 18" wheels with PSS tires have 1600 miles on them and are in winter storage. If that kind of set up interests you, since we are so close, shoot me a note as we get to the end of Winter. I am seriously thinking of going the other way and getting some BBS 17" wheels with Michelin AS3 tires as my three-season (really 2.5 with our weather) set-up on the lousy Michigan roads.

I've always gone with Performance winters on OEM sizes (18 or 19) and I live in Canada! Regular winter tires on smaller wheels feel too squirmy on anything but snow covered roads. Regular OEM width would give best traction on anything but deep snow. Tirerack etc says to go narrower but I believe thats for deep snow purposes. Performance winters feel great in virtually all conditions. Thats been my experience over 39 winters.

[alz0rz]

I'm running 225/40-18 Dunlop Wintersport 4D's on the stock M235i staggered wheels - really impressed by their performance thus far.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

I've always gone with Performance winters on OEM sizes (18 or 19) and I live in Canada! Regular winter tires on smaller wheels feel too squirmy on anything but snow covered roads. Regular OEM width would give best traction on anything but deep snow. Tirerack etc says to go narrower but I believe thats for deep snow purposes. Performance winters feel great in virtually all conditions. Thats been my experience over 39 winters.

I know your conditions, and Toronto often has a more gentle winter climate than we do in Michigan. But, as noted in another post, we may be looking for different capabilities in winter. I'm not looking for performance for these couple of months. I just want to stop and turn as safely as possible until civilization returns in Spring. The narrower advice applies to all winter conditions, not just deep snow. With a constant weight vehicle, a narrower contact patch results in higher downward PSI of the tire onto whatever surface it's on. One inch of packed snow is plenty to defeat traction and I want every advantage I can get. My experience over 43 winters!

[SmallTownBoy]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

My writing could have been clearer. I intend to replace my PSS with AS3 tires as my three season tire. Then, I will swap to winters. I will be checking out interest for anyone who wants PSS with only 1600 miles on them. We have too short a season here to really enjoy them for a while.

I live right across the border from Detroit and have no intention of giving up the PSS. We get plenty of time to enjoy them.

Got the winter tires installed this morning, just in time for the snow. Went with Nokian WRG3s - 225/40R18 on a square set of 18 X 7.5 wheels.

Looks like I took the opposite tack to you. The WRG3s are a winter-rated "all weather" performance (v rated) tire, with a 65,000 km (40,000 mi) tread warranty, which *could* be driven year-round. I intend to use them only for mid-November to mid-April. Since our climate is fairly mild by Canadian standards, I felt that was the best best balance.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I know your conditions, and Toronto often has a more gentle winter climate than we do in Michigan. But, as noted in another post, we may be looking for different capabilities in winter. I'm not looking for performance for these couple of months. I just want to stop and turn as safely as possible until civilization returns in Spring. The narrower advice applies to all winter conditions, not just deep snow. With a constant weight vehicle, a narrower contact patch results in higher downward PSI of the tire onto whatever surface it's on. One inch of packed snow is plenty to defeat traction and I want every advantage I can get. My experience over 43 winters!

Man youre old...............

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Man youre old...............

You conclude that from my orange, track package, 6MT 2 Series.....or that I detest winter and all that comes with it, as I did as a kid and ever since? I would have made a lousy Canadian! If I lived where I'd prefer (and one day I will), in SoCal, the entire year would be fun! I dream of never seeing another flake of snow in person.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

You conclude that from my orange, track package, 6MT 2 Series.....or that I detest winter and all that comes with it, as I did as a kid and ever since? I would have made a lousy Canadian! If I lived where I'd prefer (and one day I will), in SoCal, the entire year would be fun! I dream of never seeing another flake of snow in person.

43 winters of driving makes you 59 at least................

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

43 winters of driving makes you 59 at least................

...and the point is? Hated winter for all those years and in the rest of the year, enjoy the benefits of Skip Barber racing training. Age is a mindset, as is which seasons one enjoys or wishes to escape from. I know "old fart" mindset 20-somethings, both here and in Ontario!

Moving on......

[shark715]

Originally Posted by alz0rz

I'm running 225/40-18 Dunlop Wintersport 4D's on the stock M235i staggered wheels - really impressed by their performance thus far.

Could you post a photo of how one of those look mounted on one of the wider rear wheels?

[rhinothatflies]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I know your conditions, and Toronto often has a more gentle winter climate than we do in Michigan. But, as noted in another post, we may be looking for different capabilities in winter. I'm not looking for performance for these couple of months. I just want to stop and turn as safely as possible until civilization returns in Spring. The narrower advice applies to all winter conditions, not just deep snow. With a constant weight vehicle, a narrower contact patch results in higher downward PSI of the tire onto whatever surface it's on. One inch of packed snow is plenty to defeat traction and I want every advantage I can get. My experience over 43 winters!

agreed. my ex-wife is from toronto, and when i was married we went back and forth between detroit and toronto all year round for four years. detroit's winter's are most definitely harsher than toronto's. i am of the same sentiment regarding *why* i have winter tires. utility over performance.