[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Honda should fire their designers and start making something exciting after all these years. They don't even make one exciting car, or sports car. Not one !

a) The sales numbers and awards indicate that no one else cares about this. They make the 5th and 8th best selling vehicles in America. Only the Camry and pickup trucks sell more than the Accord.

b) This: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...hots-and-video

[ORIGIN M.]

Perfect, another words IF they had nicely designed cars, they'd have even higher numbers.

Maybe join the Honda Accord Sub Forums, or go drive the M235i and forget about it.

AND, the joke is, not even 1 NSX per each North American Acura dealer !!

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

a) The sales numbers and awards indicate that no one else cares about this. They make the 5th and 8th best selling vehicles in America. Only the Camry and pickup trucks sell more than the Accord.

b) This: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...hots-and-video" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.motorauth...-and-video</a>

[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Perfect, another words IF they had nicely designed cars, they'd have even higher numbers.

Only 1 car sells better than Honda (Camry). It's even less sporty in performance and design.
Hmmmm…less sporty sells more cars. :-)

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Maybe join the Honda Accord Sub Forums, or go drive the M235i and forget about it.

No need. I've driven both.
I'm not qualified to tell Honda how to redesign one of the best sellers of all time.
Nor to tell BMW that they're award-winning M235i shouldn't have an M on it.

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

AND, the joke is, not even be 1 NSX per each North American Acura dealer !!

So the joke is it's going to be a very limited run…just like the 1 series M was?

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by danimal

Very pleased to see the 3 Series drop off the list. It just wasn't worthy anymore.

Also very pleased to see the M235i added to the list. Definitely worthy.

Not so pleased they didn't give the award to the whole 2 Series line, though. Did they just not drive the 228i or did they actually consider it unworthy?

Edit

I just remembered that the 228i 8AT lost to the A3 in a comparison test (mostly due to not-so-grippy runflats), so they probably figured they'd have too much explaining to do if they included it in their 10 Best.

The comparos of one spec doesn't usually affect it's placing, the 335i came in second place in one of their comparisons 2 years ago while the 328i had won all it's comparisons. Yet, the entire 3 series and then last year 3/4 series range were included on the list.

[E90M3JETS]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Yes, the 1 will be on the UKL platform shared with Mini. I hoped for a GC also, but gave up waiting and sacrificed the rear doors. My contacts in the industry say there is no GC coming between the 1 sedan and 3 sedan. The S3 is interesting, but automatic only, and doesn't quite have the same rear wheel drive feel, and Audi's track record on quality with the A4 is questionable. In the end, I am adjusting to life without rear doors and it's not that bad unless you will have frequent passengers. So far, no one has sat in the back seat of mine. That's what my wife's E350 is for!

Thank you. I have a 8 year old who I drive constantly around and the 2 additional doors make a big impact on practicality for me. I like the S3 and the DSG, but I was hoping for a M235 GC. I will wait another 2 months and if I do not hear anything I will pull the trigger on the Audi.

[H2887]

A feather in their hat! Picking up my AW M235 TODAY at the welt!ive been driving a 2011 m3 for The last 4 years and couldn't be happier with my choice for its replacement.the new M3 just didn't do it for me at the price,size and loss of the V8.the m235 reminds me a lot of my 95 e36 m3 it just fits right.

[ADRQ0811]

Not surprised I miss the way my e90 drove love the look of my f30 but even with sport package and dhp still not as good

[ORIGIN M.]

Worse, they've advertised it like anybody can buy it....

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

Only 1 car sells better than Honda (Camry). It's even less sporty in performance and design.
Hmmmm…less sporty sells more cars. :-)



No need. I've driven both.
I'm not qualified to tell Honda how to redesign one of the best sellers of all time.
Nor to tell BMW that they're award-winning M235i shouldn't have an M on it.



So the joke is it's going to be a very limited run…just like the 1 series M was?

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by GMe90

Basically, the 3 series has become the 5 series. The 5 series is the new 7 series. And the 2 series is the old 3 series. Not sure what the 7 series' role is these days.

Actually, if you go back a bit, the F30/80 is the E23 7-series in size. So what we have here is the new M3 is actually an M7 that people always wanted BMW to build in the old days. Hence we have a 728i/735i/M7 available here in the US now.

So since the current 3-series is actually a 7-series, we need to rename the others. The F10 is the 9-series, so we actually have a 928i/935i/950i/M9; the F01 is the 11-series, so we have an 1140i/1150i/1160i/B11 on the market.

I shall henceforth refer to the current "5" and "7" series cars as 9 and 11 series models.

I guess this makes the F20/21/22 the new 5-series bracket. Hence the M235i is really an M535i (cool, haven't had one of those since 1981) but it would need four doors, so actually the F20 current M135i has to be called the M535i.

Therefore, the conclusion is...BMW doesn't make a 3-series anymore. When they do again, it will be called a 0: 028i/035i/M035i/M0.

Like elevators in Germany, smaller designs will simply need to use negative numbers. I kind of fancy the idea of a -1M, and I bet a -135i would be a cool car although the thought of a -2M is also appealing.

[Jadar]

Originally Posted by seis-speed

Size does matter. In this case The 2 is the right size. If they made an M2 Sedan; that would be the perfect car for me.

Amen Ill drink to that sir Bring on the Sedan M2 and were set.

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Yes, it's very squishy.

Very! I can attest to it I own one and my E90 felt way better with less luxury. Every time were in my wifes 228i M sport I feel more connected and more part of the car. It out handles my 335i by a mile. We love her 228i and it feels every bit as quick as my stock F30 335i. Honestly if I knew it was going to be like this I would have picked up a used E90 M3.

Each year my F30 has got more and more boring to me and I want something different. I was going for this soft feel I would have opted for a B8 S4. My friend has one and its not a bad car. Even though its dynamically inferior to my 335i it brings a bit more excitement to the table IMO.

[Fugly M3]

I'll post essentially the same thing I did in another thread, as it's so appropriate here....

I left BMW for a 987.2 Cayman a couple years ago because I figured the 2 would bring me back and I wasn't excited about a 3 sedan in the meantime.

I did sort of a test ED with a 420d 6MT M-sport 'vert back in September. 7 countries, 1450 miles and 6 of the 10 best European roads per http://www.ultimatedrives.net/top-10-roads/index.php (Stelio, Furka, Klausen, Hahntennjoch, Route de Gentelly, Col de la Bonnette).

The car was really a great road trip car...6MT and a diesel, about 184hp, 146mph on the Autobahn, and near 50mpg when not pushing it. However, I went onto bmw.de to spec the thing out...65000 EUROS!!! I can totally see owning a car like this...if my entire life revolved around driving country roads through Europe on an endless budget, endless vacation (of course, then there would be other vehicle options).

In the real world it just didn't deliver for the money. From a practicality standpoint, it's just too big and bulky. From a fun standpoint, it's slow (which, admittedly, can be remedied with a different engine choice) and soft (which cannot). It's super luxurious, comfortable and attractive...but again, life is not an endless grand tour.

When I got home, I got lucky and the local dealer had a 228i M-sport, track package, 6MT that was ordered but the buyer walked. I thought this would be my chance to drive my next car...my ED, 10 country, Nurburgring, Monaco Grand Prix, Normandy Beach, Versailles, etc., bucket list car. Then I drove it. It was quick - I got one insanely good launch, it was tighter than the 4, and all around a great car. It certainly felt much better than the 2015 GTI I drove. But it just didn't feel like the BMWs that made me love BMW. It felt soft. I didn't use sport+, just sport, but it felt soft.

Now, I can see how coming from a Porsche the BMWs should feel less tight, but they don't feel like they used to. This puts me in a real conundrum...I don't want to keep putting 15k miles a year on the Cayman and I really want to get a little better mileage, but I really don't know where to go...my go-to brand isn't so go-to anymore.

[RichP]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

Now, I can see how coming from a Porsche the BMWs should feel less tight, but they don't feel like they used to. This puts me in a real conundrum...I don't want to keep putting 15k miles a year on the Cayman and I really want to get a little better mileage, but I really don't know where to go...my go-to brand isn't so go-to anymore.

Same here. I have an A7 and while is a great looking car, and extremely practical with its hatch design, it is not as dynamic driving a vehicle as the BMWs I have had. But, cross driving it against a 5, I can't say the 5 felt like much a BMW either. So, I completely agree.. the go-to brand isn't the go-to brand anymore for incredible sport sedans. The competition has gotten much better, and BMW has sort of stepped a little backwards.

I used to have a cayman as well.. it drives more like an E36 than anything else out there (actually like a better version of an E36 M3)

I feel like I want to test drive a new CTS, just out of curiosity.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by bunker

egad m8. you've drunk the Gran Coupe Kool-Aid.

Yes I have. If they need to call it a 2 series gran coupe to bring out an e36/e46 sized m sedan again.... Then fine by me... Just start making them!

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by 300hp

Let's explore the possibilities here:

How many people are going to be put off buying a 3/4 series by this? If they are put off what are they going to buy? A C Class, Audi A4/S4, Lexus IS, ATS? None of these is on the list.

Another option is to say oh wait there is an M235i on the list so let me get that. I surmise that granted some will do that but this will be the exception. The M235i appeals to a smaller target audience than the 3/4er.

I can understand that this may be a disappointment to some but I have to agree with what someone said earlier. The 3/4 series is bigger than this list. Nothing is going to change other than maybe tweaking the narrative of the adverts that sing about this list.

Wrong. Car enthusiasts will cross shop the 3 series with all of your mentioned alternatives even more now that car and driver (a reputable car magazine) has suggested that it is not the best out there. As a bmw fan, but not diehard i will too when I am in the market. Maybe the f30 was a mistake, and maybe they will get it right next gen, that possibility has at least been created by this news

[E90M3JETS]

?

[asus389]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

Now, I can see how coming from a Porsche the BMWs should feel less tight, but they don't feel like they used to. This puts me in a real conundrum...I don't want to keep putting 15k miles a year on the Cayman and I really want to get a little better mileage, but I really don't know where to go...my go-to brand isn't so go-to anymore.

Buy a used BMW?

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by asus389

Buy a used BMW?

A used 128i has definitely been on my mind. However, I really do want a car that gets better mileage. It's not that I can't afford to pay for the fuel, I just don't want to anymore. I'd love a 3-door 1 series hatch with a 200hp 3 cylinder turbo, RWD and a proper 6MT. If it did all that and were diesel too, I'd be over the moon!

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by ADRQ0811

Not surprised I miss the way my e90 drove love the look of my f30 but even with sport package and dhp still not as good

This again? I'll save you the time from posting something like this on F30 post you damn dirty complainer.

Everyone knows the F30 needs the m sport, DHP, and m performance suspension to drive as well (not as well) as its decade old predecessor and some of the competition!

You spent $4000 for driving improvements. Psh! Stop being so cheap and spend another $3500 for the M performance suspension! This is BMW being brilliant, not ripping you off.

Oh so that won't fix the steering so I bet youll complain about that. So Ill save you the time (not $7500) and tell you to stop your whining. Sales are up!

Never mind that BMW was able to improve the 3's luxury, space, comfort, etc. for over two decades while still making it fun to drive while being the category's sales leader and making record profits. This HAD to happen! Competitors like the ATS, S4, IS are all squishy and less fun to drive now too, right? Right?!?! Sales are up!

Oh and stop your whining. I also have a hash tag for you:

#stopyourwhiningandbuyanm235ialready

[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

Once again the F30 was on the list the last 3 years, the only change to the segment from last year to this year is the new c class which did not make the list.

Correct.
It does seem there should be a member of this class in the list. The C class did get an upgrade and did beat the 3 series in some reviews:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/305077/l...s-v-volvo-s60/

One of the quotes from a Top Gear article says it best:

"The world is getting a bit complicated these days. BMW is trying to be Mercedes and Mercedes is trying to be BMW. And when we say that, we mean BMW is going a bit softer and more inclined towards comfort, while Mercedes is focusing on giving you more pleasure while you’re behind the wheel."

My only thought to why one of these wasn't featured could be due to the lack of a "standout" winner. Perhaps the C & 3 are so close now that C&D felt it was blurry and that there wasn't a clear cut winner in the group. Or perhaps they're just bored with that segment in general.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by WWM3

This again? I'll save you the time from posting something like this on F30 post you damn dirty complainer.

Everyone knows the F30 needs the m sport, DHP, and m performance suspension to drive as well (not as well) as its decade old predecessor and some of the competition!

You spent $4000 for driving improvements. Psh! Stop being so cheap and spend another $3500 for the M performance suspension! This is BMW being brilliant, not ripping you off.

Oh so that won't fix the steering so I bet youll complain about that. So Ill save you the time (not $7500) and tell you to stop your whining. Sales are up!

Never mind that BMW was able to improve the 3's luxury, space, comfort, etc. for over two decades while still making it fun to drive while being the category's sales leader and making record profits. This HAD to happen! Competitors like the ATS, S4, IS are all squishy and less fun to drive now too, right? Right?!?! Sales are up!

Oh and stop your whining. I also have a hash tag for you:

#stopyourwhiningandbuyanm235ialready

Haha...don't be surprised if sales peak with the F30

[teaston]

This list should be taken with a pinch of salt seeing as car and driver is an American magazine, and 4 out of the 10 cars are American!!

Motoring journalists from anywhere else in the world would have no American cars in the top 10, or 20, or probably even 50!

I'm not bashing America, they do many things very well, but making cars is not one of them!

[danimal]

Originally Posted by teaston

This list should be taken with a pinch of salt seeing as car and driver is an American magazine, and 4 out of the 10 cars are American!!

Motoring journalists from anywhere else in the world would have no American cars in the top 10, or 20, or probably even 50!

I'm not bashing America, they do many things very well, but making cars is not one of them!

You are oversimplifying.

First, Car and Driver is only choosing among cars sold in the U.S. This is definitely not the same selection of cars available to Europeans.

Second, C/D is an American magazine, and it's readership is primarily American. While the magazine caters to enthusiasts, American enthusiasts must still drive on poorly maintained American roads, which means ride quality is an important criteria for anyone who isn't a masochist. More Americans live out in the middle of nowhere or in suburbs, and even the cities tend to be less dense than in Europe. This means, among cars, the midsize sedan is king. Americans have a unique history with the automobile, which means there's a certain romanticism surrounding cars like the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger. The Corvette is also a source of national pride, as it's one of the only American cars that has managed to not suck since 1984 (and recent generations are actually quite stellar).

So, the list couldn't possibly look like the list of motoring journalists elsewhere in the world, but that doesn't mean it should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not saying C/D makes the right call on every car every year, but this list seems entirely legit to me given the cars that were eligible and their intended market.