[raleedy]

Originally Posted by krhodes1

A solid month plus of rentals of various 228is and 328is with that transmission. So I have driven plenty of them. With the manual, I can be in sixth gear at 30mph and accelerate seamlessly to whatever speed I want without dropping a gear (even in my relatively torqueless N52 for that matter). Won't happen with the ZF unless you want to accelerate at 1mph/minute or something.

There is nothing magical about how the ZF does slightly better on the highway - it is taller geared. If sixth in the manual was the same as 8th in the ZF, with the same final drive they would get the same highway mpg. If anything, in the real world the manual would then likely beat the automatic on the highway. Why BMW puts such short top gears in these cars baffles me - a friend's new 1.4T Jetta turns nearly 1000rpm less at 85 in top gear than my M235i, and is still plenty flexible in gear. The acceleration of the M235i in sixth is really kind of ridiculous - it should simply be taller geared - what's the point of a manual if you never actually have to shift the thing?

Yes, I wish the 228i had a taller top gear -- I do care about mpg, if only because of the frequency of fill-ups. But I'm getting (admittedly during break-in) less than 32 mpg on the highway, something that the much heavier 528i could easily achieve.

[ThreeToTwo]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

http://www.s2ki.com/home/2014/09/22/...ifting-is-bad/

upshift

That's an interesting link, thanks.

However... isn't this another reason why we rev-match when changing gear? I don't see extra wear on the synchro if so.

The recommended way of skipping (keep the clutch depressed, shift into and out of each intermediate gear) seems odd: it sounds like a long-winded way of letting the revs drop (matching the new, high ratio) and might even add wear on the synchros. I was also taught that keeping the clutch down too long was a bad thing because it wears the thrust bearing.

I shall continue to skip ratios (whilst rev matching). In urban areas I often use 2nd/3rd to get briskly to my desired/possible speed then shift straight into 5th/6th to cruise with the traffic. If you're constrained to 30/40/50 mph, it really doesn't take very long to get there and extra gear changes don't gain anything; then 6th cuts noise and consumption (I know some members will disagree with me on that one).

YMMV (possibly literally).

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Beartato

If you don't know how to drive, yeah.

Unless you're powershifting, you won't hold boost on a shift in a manual.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This is not entirely true. Manuals still outsell automatics in most countries in Europe on vehicles on which both are available. So that argument kind of goes out the window on a global scale -- and manuals are being phased out globally, not just in the U.S.

This is a multifaceted decision that's primarily economic, with governmental, environmental, and sociological factors. The point one poster made about lessening development costs by only offering one tranny is a really good one in this day and age of hypercompetition, razor-thin margins, and parts sharing between models and marques -- as is the fact that autos are more complex and cost that much more to repair/replace, making it a potential source of revenue for an automaker.

Another important factor to consider is that many transmissions aren't even designed or built by the automaker itself. Our 2 Series BMWs use a Getrag manual and a ZF auto, both of which are used in other models as well as other marques -- particularly the ZF, versions of which are used in everything from Dodge Ram pickups to Maseratis. If you were a business relying on third parties to supply critical pieces of hardware for your products, wouldn't you want to minimize that reliance as much as possible since you largely can't control 1). the hardware produced, and 2) the profit margin of said hardware? I sure as heck would.

In Europe, autos are gaining lots of popularity and now outsell manuals. Also, the manual box in the M235, M2, M3, M4, M6 is made by ZF. Getrag makes the manual for the 228 and 3 and 4 series.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Unless you're powershifting, you won't hold boost on a shift in a manual.

BOOST PRESSURE AFTER GEAR SHIFT (N54, I assume N55 as well)

"The potential of software functions to optimize the response of the car can be shown with the following example: After a gear shift with a manual transmission the boost pressure is normally low. In order to realize a high torque as soon as possible after the gear shift it is necessary to increase the boost pressure quickly. The decrease in boost pressure however is caused by the driver, who has not torque demand during a gear shift. So a software function has been developed which is not closing the throttle valve during a short gear shift but decreases the torque of the engine by shifting the ignition time. So the mass flow through the turbine is still high even if the driver is changing the gear. This leads to a much better torque right after the gear shift, because the turbines are only loosing a small part of their energy."

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

In Europe, autos are gaining lots of popularity and now outsell manuals. Also, the manual box in the M235, M2, M3, M4, M6 is made by ZF. Getrag makes the manual for the 228 and 3 and 4 series.

Yup re: BMW manual gearbox manufacturers. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, autos are more popular in Europe, but I hadn't read where they'd overtaken manuals in sales in cars on which both are offered. The latter is an important distinction -- it weeds out cars on which a manual is impractical from a use-ability standpoint such as hybrids and SUVs, which skews the numbers. The two examples given are given on purpose because they are both recent 'new' classes on which manual transmissions are almost never offered, in any market.

[raleedy]

Another driver in the trend to automatics is emissions management. Less driver intervention in the automatic means it is easier to program engine management.

[raleedy]

Originally Posted by ThreeToTwo

That's an interesting link, thanks.

However... isn't this another reason why we rev-match when changing gear? I don't see extra wear on the synchro if so.

The recommended way of skipping (keep the clutch depressed, shift into and out of each intermediate gear) seems odd: it sounds like a long-winded way of letting the revs drop (matching the new, high ratio) and might even add wear on the synchros. I was also taught that keeping the clutch down too long was a bad thing because it wears the thrust bearing.

I shall continue to skip ratios (whilst rev matching). In urban areas I often use 2nd/3rd to get briskly to my desired/possible speed then shift straight into 5th/6th to cruise with the traffic. If you're constrained to 30/40/50 mph, it really doesn't take very long to get there and extra gear changes don't gain anything; then 6th cuts noise and consumption (I know some members will disagree with me on that one).

YMMV (possibly literally).

So when you roll to a stop in 6th are you expected to row through 5, 4, 3, and 2 before selecting first?

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by raleedy

So when you roll to a stop in 6th are you expected to row through 5, 4, 3, and 2 before selecting first?

no

[Pinghacker]

I have not driven a manual in some time and don't have any particularly fond memories of it. That said, I have had many poorly performing automatics in my life and this is not one of those by any stretch. I love the way the car drives and couldn't say that if the transmission weren't sublime in its execution. Never have I thought it should have shifted at a significantly different point than it had.

[Kolyan2k]

Took a drive today on the evening empty roads....RWD + 6 speed is a joy....in Sport+ it's so nice and easy to throw the back end .....just fun to drive

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

Which modern race cars have manuals now?

Viper. The best legal race car on the planet. And the Gen V is actually very nice on the inside with Ferrari seats and leather. It holds more track records than any other production car on the planet, beating the LaFerrari, the 918, the P1, the Veyron, etc! The shifting in the Viper is buttery smooth...WAY better than on a BMW. I genuinely have no idea why people think BMW shifters are great. They seem to always be notchy from engaging 1rst gear and from 1rst to 2nd gear.

Thus, it is going to be discontinued at the end of 2017. Actually, they are stopping production be cause of new side airbag requirements. The current car would need a whole new frame to be compliant. Very sad times

[Vegetable]

Originally Posted by raleedy

Yes, I wish the 228i had a taller top gear -- I do care about mpg, if only because of the frequency of fill-ups. But I'm getting (admittedly during break-in) less than 32 mpg on the highway, something that the much heavier 528i could easily achieve.

I love the relatively short gearing in our cars (mine cruises at around 2,800 RPM at 80 MPH). Lots of power in 6th, yet still achieves decent MPG. My 435i can get 32 + MPG on the highway at 70 MPH. In my experience and in real world driving (my real world driving), I get about 2 MPG less than a 328i auto and only 1 MPG less than a 528i auto. I'm guessing I would probably get exactly the same MPG in a 435i auto, even though mine is rated at around 2 MPG less by the EPA.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by thebmw

Viper. The best legal race car on the planet. And the Gen V is actually very nice on the inside with Ferrari seats and leather. It holds more track records than any other production car on the planet, beating the LaFerrari, the 918, the P1, the Veyron, etc!

Just imagine how much faster it would be with a DCT auto ...



Just sayin!

[amw896]

Originally Posted by thebmw

Viper. The best legal race car on the planet. And the Gen V is actually very nice on the inside with Ferrari seats and leather. It holds more track records than any other production car on the planet, beating the LaFerrari, the 918, the P1, the Veyron, etc! The shifting in the Viper is buttery smooth...WAY better than on a BMW. I genuinely have no idea why people think BMW shifters are great. They seem to always be notchy from engaging 1rst gear and from 1rst to 2nd gear.

Thus, it is going to be discontinued at the end of 2017. Actually, they are stopping production be cause of new side airbag requirements. The current car would need a whole new frame to be compliant. Very sad times

Also the new gt350 is only available in standard. I had the chance to ride in one at the grand bend motorplex a few weeks back. This car was insanity. Ultimate driving machine perhaps?

Props to Ford on that call imo

[amw896]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Just imagine how much faster it would be with a DCT auto ...



Just sayin!

but it doesn't need one to crush even hypercars. Isn't that the best part

Salomondrin says it best in this vid I think when he's comparing his pagani for viper trade.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by amw896

but it doesn't need one to crush even hypercars. Isn't that the best part

Salomondrin says it best in this vid I think when he's comparing his pagani for viper trade.

Nope. The Viper's always been about raw speed with minimal tech. But past a certain point, speed potential becomes useless without tech to control it. The best example of this is MotoGP bikes -- but other good ones are F1 and the hypercar class.

Really, that's nice and all, but comparing a Viper with a Pagani is like comparing an AC Cobra with a Ferrari Enzo.

Great for him. But the manual slows down the Viper. It'll be the last of a dying breed.

[HandsomeDevil]

I test drove the m235i in auto and manual and chose the manual. Like everyone here said, it's definitely not faster but it's just more fun to me, which is the whole point of buying a car like the m235i. I like shifting and being in total control. Traffic doesn't bother me either.

If my car isn't about having fun, then I'm sure as hell going to save some money and just buy me a cheap economical car that gets me from point A to point B. If BMW ever drops manual, I don't have a problem looking at other brands... the Focus RS looks like a real contender even though I'm not a huge fan of hatchbacks.

[abhibrandy1]

I unfortunately drive an automatic & kick myself every single day for not getting a manual!! My next car will definately be a manual M2 or M240i. Its true that manuals are dying as auto companies have stopped investing in this technology. Its still great to see cars like Porsche Caymay GT4, Subaru STI, Mustang GT350, Ford Focus RS, Cadillac ATSV, Corvette Stingray & a bunch of BMW's which still come with great manuals. No dual clutch or PDK can match the involvement & analog feel that a manual offers. I'l stick with BMW as long as they manufacture manuals.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

But the manual slows down the Viper. It'll be the last of a dying breed.

Even with its "slow" manual, it was 1.5 seconds FASTER than the 918 at Laguna Seca!

Unless you are the fastest driver on the planet, who cares about another 0.2 seconds. It's the engagement and the experience that matter. It's like virtual, simulated s*x. I'm sure it is faster than the real thing but it sucks, not pun intended.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by thebmw

Who cares about another 0.2 seconds.

You're really asking this question?

If you get a chance, watch this movie. Then you'll understand. Progress. And competition.

Originally Posted by thebmw

It's the engagement and the experience that matter. It's like virtual, simulated s*x. I'm sure it is faster than the real thing but it sucks, not pun intended.

Look: I understand the first sentence. It's also part of the allure of vinyl records; the medium is extremely limiting and music quality is subpar, but the visceral and tactile experience is what makes it appealing to some. Thing is, some feel the same way about tuning carburetors, too ...

... as for the other sentence: Who in their right mind wants ultrafast sex?

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

... as for the other sentence: Who in their right mind wants ultrafast sex?

I guess you do...you just sent me a video link about it

Obviously, I get that the DCT is faster than any human being. But I think you're completely missing the point here, especially when it comes to the purity of the Viper driving experience. 99% of drivers that drive a Viper (but really, most cars) will never be able to reach it's limits, thus, the DCT is irrelevant. That said, even if it did improve times by 0.2 seconds, WHO CARES!!! The thrill is gone.

Your example of vinyl records is way off. Vinyl sound reproduction is inaccurate, thus the uniqueness. Manuals aren't inaccurate. The appropriate comparison is playing an acoustic piano or guitar vs. playing music on an ipad keyboard. Keep your ipad keyboard and virtual reality s*x machine. I'll stick with the real thing.