[olehead]

I was going to mention the GT350 since I have one on order (5 months out at least) and that production car will give a m a run for its money and bury the Camaro - again on the track - and agree we do not make our money racing but some of us do it for the fun and the M is built for it - To each his own!!

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by olehead

the only comment I would make about the previous absurd statement is "There is not a production Camaro made that will compete with a Production M on a road course and they do not even try - Road and Track - Car and Driver and other pubs agree -

What?

Camaro Z28.


http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p-2014-feature

[Viffermike]

Guys ... the thread is titled "Camaro vs 235". Not "GT350R vs Z28 vs M4 GTS" or somesuch.

There are pleeeeeenty of threads that debate the race-ready variants above over on the BMW General Forum, the M2 forum, etc.

Let's keep this on topic?

[JohnnyCanuck]

My thoughts on this are that the Camaro is a beautuful car with fantastic driving dynamics that I aspired to own when I was young. These were the kinds of cars that we wanted when we were in high school and university (Z28's, 442's, Goats, 'Cuda's, etc'). The same applies to the Challenger and the Mustang.

As a middle aged adult, I am not looking to drive a car that screams mid-life crisis all over it. For just that simple reason, it's the 235. That said, GM makes some killer cars worth considering (ATS-V, CTS-V) ... just not a car that screams I'm looking to pretend I'm 25 years younger than I am and next up I'm trading in my wife.

All that said, if I had plenty of money to throw at cars ... I'd go the restomod route on a classic muscle car. If I could afford something from one of the great restomod guys out there that would be completely different.

[EternalVendetta]

I considered a Mustang GT before deciding on the M235i and likely would have also considered the new Camaro too if it was available when I was shopping last year. I might have ended up with one of the American cars if the car was smaller and if it had the styling that I was looking for (wanted something a bit more mature / reserved, though I ended up going against that a bit anyway with EB II exterior and CR interior!).

The clincher for the BMW in my very specific case was that I was going to Germany last September for a friend's wedding, which gave me a great reason to also do ED; it just seemed like the BMW was meant to be.

I do hope that in ~7-10 years when I'm ready for my next car, one of the American manufacturers will have ported the performance and engagement of the new Camaro to a sporty sedan that is similar to the M235i in size and styling (kind of like a smaller SS but less boring-looking).

[sgmpw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

My thoughts on this are that the Camaro is a beautuful car with fantastic driving dynamics that I aspired to own when I was young. These were the kinds of cars that we wanted when we were in high school and university (Z28's, 442's, Goats, 'Cuda's, etc'). The same applies to the Challenger and the Mustang.

As a middle aged adult, I am not looking to drive a car that screams mid-life crisis all over it. For just that simple reason, it's the 235. That said, GM makes some killer cars worth considering (ATS-V, CTS-V) ... just not a car that screams I'm looking to pretend I'm 25 years younger than I am and next up I'm trading in my wife.

All that said, if I had plenty of money to throw at cars ... I'd go the restomod route on a classic muscle car. If I could afford something from one of the great restomod guys out there that would be completely different.

Yeah - I have to admit to similar considerations (in post 1 I list my age). I do value the driving experience very highly but it's tough to ignore that some (less enlightened) people would have raised an eyebrow.
Do I care? Not really but...as an exec I also can't completely ignore personal branding :P
+1 on the restomod. My restriction is more storage and the need to drive the car 365 days/year. Love what they can achieve these days. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...lenger-feature

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by sgmpw

Yeah - I have to admit to similar considerations (in post 1 I list my age). I do value the driving experience very highly but it's tough to ignore that some (less enlightened) people would have raised an eyebrow.
Do I care? Not really but...as an exec I also can't completely ignore personal branding :P
+1 on the restomod. My restriction is more storage and the need to drive the car 365 days/year. Love what they can achieve these days. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...lenger-feature

It's not even what others would think (although I am self-aware enough to realize that's a part of it), it just seems like going backwards.

[Orenji]

I'm not sure what 2016 GMs look like, but as a guy who's owned both a Mustang and a Camaro since the turn of the century, I'm not really concerned with the performance of the drivetrain or the handling. My problems always stemmed more from broken door handles and cheap components like leather seats, glove compartments, emergency brakes, etc that fail well before they should.

The day the warranty for components ended was the day I started hating both cars. I'd be lying if I said I was even a little bit curious about the Camaro.

I'm never buying domestic again. The big three trained me to want more and now I do.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by Orenji

I'm not sure what 2016 GMs look like, but as a guy who's owned both a Mustang and a Camaro since the turn of the century, I'm not really concerned with the performance of the drivetrain or the handling. My problems always stemmed more from broken door handles and cheap components like leather seats, glove compartments, emergency brakes, etc that fail well before they should.

The day the warranty for components ended was the day I started hating both cars. I'd be lying if I said I was even a little bit curious about the Camaro.

I'm never buying domestic again. The big three trained me to want more and now I do.

I have to respond to this one, as it's a blanket put-down of American cars, even though I'm risking another reprimand from VifferMike for going slightly off-topic.

Previous to this BMW, I owned a 2005 Mustang GT. I put 78,000 miles on it as a daily driver for 10 years, including plenty of snow and salt that come with New England winters. It was also driven quite hard, as I took it to HPDE track days every year. The car was stock other than Hawk HPS brake pads and ATE Super Blue fluid.

Bottom line is that the Mustang pictured in my avatar (that's me on track at Watkins Glen) had ZERO issues in those 10 years! It never went back to the dealer after I bought - not once. Never even had a minor issue as mentioned above. Everything worked up to the day I sold it, it didn't have a speck of rust anywhere, and it just got better with age. I did most of the maintenance myself in my garage, but there really wasn't much other than oil/filter changes (Mobil 1), brake pads and rotors, fuel filters, coolant flush, tires, and a battery.

Up until my BMW, it was the best car I ever owned. By far. Not only that, but 2005 was the big redesign year, and it didn't have any recalls or other issues that folks typically worry about.

Will my BMW last 10 years without having a single problem? Good question, and time will tell. So far, so good after one year. Only 9 to go! I do know that it can't possibly have a better reliability record than that Mustang.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by wjones14

I have to respond to this one, as it's a blanket put-down of American cars, even though I'm risking another reprimand from VifferMike for going slightly off-topic.

Not gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent. (And it's a good post).

[omega145]

As much as I've talked negatively on the Camaro I traded in for the M235, I have to agree with wjones14. A majority of my American cars have had zero problems. Can't say the same for the BMW's I've owned.

[CalCarNut]

1996 Impala SS. Bought new in Dec 1995. Drove it every damn day. It only had 2 issues where it didn't get me to where I wanted to go. Fuel pump failed once (15yrs old) and a kill switch wire fried that I installed (fixed in 10min and was back on the road) and the transmission failed (see 1/4 mile pass comment). Best car I've ever had and still have...(although the fuel pump is toast as I type this lol.) 185,000 miles, valve covers have not even been removed from the car and the car has about 200 1/4 mile passes on it. What was that about domestic cars being crap again?

[speeddeacon]

I'm currently planning for my next daily driver. I typically research and plan for a considerable time in advance so the actual purchase is at least 6 months, if not a year away for me. By daily driver, I mean a car to drive back and forth to work, run to the store, go to church, etc. My wife's car serves as family and long hauler and I have a sports car for the fun runs. At one point we needed a multi-passenger vehicle so I currently drive a Honda Odyssey when I'm not on two-wheels. Those needs are changing with children and grand-children moving away, so I'll be in the market for a car again in the not too distant future.

The 2 series and the Camaro are both on my short list. I want to keep it at 50k or less. While the intended task is mundane, no track days or mountain runs planned for this vehicle, I still enjoy the driving experience even when going about my ordinary driving tasks.

I haven't driven the 2 yet, but we just sold our F30 so I can imagine the experience will be somewhat similar. I did rent both a 2016 V6 Camaro and Mustang recently (no V8 available at the rental agencies) while on vacation. Of the two, I preferred the Camaro because it felt much more nimble and definitely more responsive than the Mustang. The suspension was excellent and so was the power, even from the V6. The fit and finish were both adequate, but of course they were rentals and had the base interior. I might opt for the upgraded interior since I plan to keep it a while.

For its intended purpose, I planned to find a used example, but now that the B58 M240 is coming out and the 1LE package is going to be available for the Gen. 6 Camaro, it may be hard not to buy new. We'll see. Both are waaaaayyyy overkill for a DD, but I know I wouldn't be able to settle for anything less for the marginal price difference over their lesser base counterparts. I do drive in the rain a fair amount and those 285/305 tires on the SS 1LE might not be my best choice.

The previous comments about GM quality may very well be worth noting, however. The rental Camaro had no noticable quality issues but that was a short exposure. However, we did test drive a 2016 CTS-V before acquiring my wife's G12 750. Even on the test drive the check engine light was on, the salesman couldn't get the Parking Assistant to work and the glove compartment wouldn't open so he could insert an SD card to demonstrate the performance data recorder. Those issues on a top of the line, $100k Cadillac certainly spoke volumes to me regarding GM quality. I could tolerate a little of that in a $40k Camaro I suppose but wouldn't want too in the Caddy. By the way, GM's implementation of the ZF8 speed auto pales in comparison to BMW, at least in manual mode on the CTS-V and V6 Camaro.

Other cars I would consider are the Audi S3, Infiniti Q50S Red Sport AWD and perhaps the new Jaguar XE 3.0 AWD R-Sport. None of those are very likely but not ruling them out just yet. Of course the M2 is pretty close in price, but the availability and current price augmentation keeps it out of contention. We'll see how it is in the future.

[RoundelM3]

Keep in mind that no matter how "great" the "American" brands are, most of their cars are assembled outside the US and are effectively as "foreign" as a BMW built in Germany is. Given that the costs are about the same throughout the industry for parts and other materials, labor, manufacturing tooling, and shipping (for both parts and finished product), you don't get what you don't pay for.

I could care less whether a Camaro or Mustang or Challenger can "outperform" a given BMW model. I prefer the quality and engineering that BMW puts into its vehicles. Remember, a publicly-held corporation like GM, Ford, or what's left of Chrysler is beholden to its stockholders first, and the bottom-line means everything. That's where GM and the other "domestic" automakers start cutting corners on ignition switches and gear shifters and then cover up what they've done. I recall GM going through a huge bankruptcy and bailout not long ago, but I don't seem to remember BMW having similar problems. That's the kind of company I'd prefer to buy cars from, not some corporate monolith, regardless of what some automotive rag thinks about their cheap, overweight hotrod.

[Luftwaffe1O1]

The new gen Camaro is supposed to be pretty badass. I haven't had any seat time in one yet, but probably will give it a go sometime soon. And this did cross my mind (for the last gen Camaro that was) when I was getting my 235i, however, in the end there is one thing that really was offputting, and that was the size of the car.

I had also looked at a 435i, and it was the same problem. I just really like the size of the 2 series vs the 4, or the Camaro for instance. And I don't think it is necessarily THAT much better with the new one. The Camaro is better in almost every measureable way than the 235, I would even say the blindspots are annoying, but I could live with them. Even the crappy back seats, but I just really enjoy driving a smaller car. It has a different feel to it.

Its why I really like the Z3 chassis, you are practically sitting on the diff, and it makes for some very fun times. So it really comes down to personal preference. In the end for me, the fast straight line or track performance wasn't as big of a factor as how I perceived the drive. Hell my Z3 is WAAAYYYY slower than even my 2 series, but I still actually prefer it in a lot of ways.

Just because it is faster, does not mean it will be more enjoyable. Having said that, not everyone will share those points, I would say I am a bit more picky on the size aspect of the car, but most people would not be, so the Camaro would be a better overall car id say for a lot of people.

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by Luftwaffe1O1

The new gen Camaro is supposed to be pretty badass. I haven't had any seat time in one yet, but probably will give it a go sometime soon. And this did cross my mind (for the last gen Camaro that was) when I was getting my 235i, however, in the end there is one thing that really was offputting, and that was the size of the car.
.

Yeah, it's almost a deal breaker for me. With a small garage and desire to DIY, don't know if the new camaro would work for me. I don't understand why it's so big if it's so closely based on the e46.

[G-Mann]

I'm a big fan of the performance numbers the Camaro is putting down. Not a fan of the build quality issues being reported on camaro6. I've lost interest in the Camaro.

[Dylan86]

I think it's cool that the NA car manufacturers are finally stepping up. My only gripe is how big these cars are. I mean it's great that they can handle, but they FEEL heavy and oversized, in an unnecessary way (it seems to me). I recently drove a new GT500 and it was impressive, I just couldn't get over how big the car felt, both inside and out.

One of those situations where I'm appreciating them for what they are and what they "can do", almost like a well built JDM car. But I'd never own one, personally.

I'm Euro for life, and there's not much that will change that. They've always felt better in most situations, and to me that's most important rather than swinging dick about stats.

D

[Kiwi]

I did not enjoy the Camaro's very slow convertible top last year. I hope this years top is a lot faster opening and closing.

[Beef Supreme]

For me, a large part of it comes down to perception. I'm not a snob, but I realize it sounds snobby.

The Camaro SS and the Mustang GT are great performance cars. But every high school parking lot has about twenty Camaros and Mustangs. It's not about the "rarity" of the 2 series, either. Where I live, BMWs are a dime a dozen (even if they're mostly 328s). The difference is that I'd feel a little weird driving a high school kid's car, even if it's great. As a professional and an adult, it makes you look a bit silly

[yatesfloyd]

Originally Posted by Beef Supreme

For me, a large part of it comes down to perception. I'm not a snob, but I realize it sounds snobby.

The Camaro SS and the Mustang GT are great performance cars. But every high school parking lot has about twenty Camaros and Mustangs. It's not about the "rarity" of the 2 series, either. Where I live, BMWs are a dime a dozen (even if they're mostly 328s). The difference is that I'd feel a little weird driving a high school kid's car, even if it's great. As a professional and an adult, it makes you look a bit silly

Im a highschooler with a 2er and that's exactly why I chose it.. Unfortunately not the m235i.... Yet

[speeddeacon]

Originally Posted by Beef Supreme

For me, a large part of it comes down to perception. I'm not a snob, but I realize it sounds snobby.

The Camaro SS and the Mustang GT are great performance cars. But every high school parking lot has about twenty Camaros and Mustangs. It's not about the "rarity" of the 2 series, either. Where I live, BMWs are a dime a dozen (even if they're mostly 328s). The difference is that I'd feel a little weird driving a high school kid's car, even if it's great. As a professional and an adult, it makes you look a bit silly

Wow, really? That's quite a statement. You are 100% correct about it sounding snobby. I would agree with you, perhaps, regarding a "Tuner Car" like a hot hatch, WRX STi or that ilk. That is a very youthful culture. But the Ford Focus RS and Volkswagen Golf R may be really good driver's cars and I might have to take it back if I did.

There are plenty of mature, highly compensated adults driving Mustangs and Camaros. They were a part of our youth way back when (OK, maybe not in mid 70's to mid 80's for the Mustang) just as they are to the some of the current generation of youth. I'm thankful for that. Honestly, I doubt many of them grow up saying, "when I'm all grown up and have a high paying job, I want to buy a BMW 2 Series." I could be wrong about that.

Our company President drives his Mustang to work everyday. One of our professionals drives a V6 Camaro. I drove a Shelby GT500 to work everyday for 4 years. Honestly though, most of the highly compensated professionals are driving SUVs these days. If you want to look the part of a professional, buy an X5 or Lexus, or maybe a 5 Series or an E class would suffice if you want to be more traditional. The only people I know who drive a 1 or 2 series, other than my BMW salesman who drives a 1M, are women. Evidently they have really good taste in driving machines.

I've owned multiple BMWs, including M cars, but none of them brought any attention to me. When I took a different job, I was concerned about the perception others might have of my 6 series, so I sold it and bought "just a Mustang" in the form a GT500. I don't think I ever filled its gas tank without someone coming over to look at it, talk about it, ask how much it cost, how fast it was and if I would rev the engine. I had much more anonymity in my 6 series. I guess everyone thought I was a snob. Perhaps I am because all the attention got really annoying at times in the Mustang.

You mention perception and then say you aren't a snob though. Some people don't make that disclaimer and it never ceases to amaze me how people perceive other people on the forums. On the Porsche boards, many view BMW owners as somehow being inferior, seeking only some sort of status but being basically ignorant about driving and cars in general. For example, I recently read on a Porsche forum, someone referring to the M2 or M4, I don't recall which, as being "only a BMW".

On this very board, I think it was the M3 forum, someone made the statement that anyone who chose a convertible over a coupe wasn't a real enthusiast because coupes were far superior and safer for high performance driving. He said he automatically assumed anyone in a convertible was a poser because convertibles were only for women. This led to a nice little reprimand about Miata racing series, Shelby Cobra's, Ferrari Spider's and even F1 and Indy cars. He then made another idiotic statement that at some point some cars are so fast the coupe/convertible argument doesn't apply. I think he had a test to study for perhaps because he never returned to the conversation.

If a person enjoys driving, they should buy what they prefer to spend on a car that thrills them each time they start the engine. If that is a track prepared Camaro 1LE or a Mustang GT with the track package, so be it. If it is a 2 Series, so be it. If it is an M2/3/4/5/6, that's great too. It would be a shame to miss the thrill and sound of that LS4 V8 because they chose a 228i just because it was a BMW. A person comfortable in their own skin doesn't buy a car based on how other people will perceive them, with the notable exception of not wanting to drive an expensive car that might give an undesirable impression of wealth. In that case the Camaro 1SS might be a better choice than a Cadillac CTS-V for example.

For me, I will buy what I like the most for the intended purpose. It could be a 240i, an M2, a 1SS with the 1LE package or ZL1 or maybe something I haven't even considered yet. Figuring it out is a big part of the fun for me.