[mcompact]

I am the cross-shopper from Hell; I drove a CPO 2015 1LE equipped just how I would have ordered one(heated Recaros, no hole in the roof0. It had outstanding acceleration and cornering ability, but I hated the bulk and the horrible visibility. I came extremely close to buying a Mustang GT with the Performance Package- but Ford's Honda-esque practice of making you buy the Premium trim level to get decent audio and navigation put me off. And then there was the cloth interior in the base trim level; I swear it was ripped from a 1989 Hyundai. So I ended up with a 2014 CPO M235i. The price was right and I was tired of looking at cars(I had been searching for over a year). Would I buy another 2er if something happened to my current car? Maybe, but probably not; life is too short to do the same thing twice.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by doccyber

I like my car because of its small size and may I dare to say its handling. All American sport coupes are just too big for my taste. Also have you ever sat inside a Camaro? It is dungeon like and what's up with those ridiculously placed center HVAC vents. Interior build quality is just too down market. Performance wise yes, no car will beat the Mustangs and Camaro at their price range. I am pleased to see that we are now making cars that is giving the Germans a run for their money but we need to make them a little smaller and less chintzy inside.

+1 on the 2 series size - it's perfect. I'm coming from a Mustang GT and the M235i is so much easier to drive around town. You never feel crowded even on narrow 2-lane roads with this car.

That said, if track days are your thing, size becomes much less of an issue.

But I would disagree with you on the interior. I sat in a 6th gen 2SS recently for about 15 minutes really just focusing on the quality and layout. The gauges (or lack of) in the M235i are a joke, IMO, and the 2SS with its customizable gauge layout is far superior. I love the steering wheel in my 2er, but I might even like the 2SS flat-bottomed wheel better. The shifter feels nicer in the 2SS as well. As far as leather quality and dash material quality - I gotta be honest - I really don't see much difference.

I'm happy with my choice for sure and not looking back at this point. I was due for a change after driving Mustangs and Camaros since the '70s. But if I was cross-shopping the 6th gen 2SS versus M235i right now, that's a tough one.

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by wjones14

OMG...

All due respect, but have you been living under a rock? The newly revamped Camaro SS has been the talk of car enthusiasts and auto shows for months now, and Motor Trend just confirmed how great it is by comparing it to an $80K M4, where the Camaro won every objective measured test, and won the comparison. .................................................. ..................................................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I

Great. We're planning another trip to California this summer. I have a 'stang ragtop reserved for the trip, but will switch to a new Camaro SS ragtop if I can find one and give 'er another try. I apologize for not having talked to other car enthusiasts for the past few months, so was unaware of the new revamped Camaro.

[WWM]

I traded in my M235i for a 2016 Camaro. The car is faster in a straight line, faster around a track, has more luxury equipment and better mechanical hardware. For almost exactly the same price. The Camaro also fits me better due to my height. I sit lower in the car which means I can sit upright without feeling too high like I feel in the 235i.

It's sad and ironic in a way because I generally dislike muscle cars (not that the new Camaro is really a muscle car anymore). I also really love my 235, but after driving the Camaro, sitting in it, reading the reviews and maybe most importantly, seeing the price, I couldn't resist.

[pimp4cheddar]

Originally Posted by wjones14

OMG...

All due respect, but have you been living under a rock? The newly revamped Camaro SS has been the talk of car enthusiasts and auto shows for months now, and Motor Trend just confirmed how great it is by comparing it to an $80K M4, where the Camaro won every objective measured test, and won the comparison. The car is almost 300 pounds lighter than the previous generation, loaded with standard features that put BMW to shame, and has upped the quality to where it is no longer a joke.

I mean MT compared it to the M4. You're right - how can you compare it to the M235i? I'll say this - M235i owners will get a good look at the Camaro's taillights at track days, because those cars will outright smoke ours. And this is the standard 2SS. The 1LE is yet to come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I

I've obviously been living under a rock as I had no idea the watercooler talk was about the Camaro SS.

I'll take a peek and try to test drive one this weekend.

I've driven a few vette's and mustang GT and while they're nice...never made me feel overly excited to be sitting in one.

[G-Mann]

If I were in the market I would have to take a closer look at the SS, as mentioned, you get a lot of performance bang and features for your buck. If you are ok with the interior/exterior styling and mpg's the SS is a fine choice IMO.

The Camaro's are not jumping off the lots so some deals can be had, wait till the fall and the deals are really going to be popping on the SS.

[Cyberdemon]

I saw the Motor trend review and had a chance to check out (but not drive) the '16 Camaro.

In general it seems like it could be a pretty nice vehicle, but I can't get over how disabling the rearward visibility is. I've driven the '15 Camaro's and honestly never felt safe because of how big the blind spot was. Even with blind spot monitoring it made me uncomfortable.

And that's coming from someone in a 235 vert, which does not have good rearward visiblity either. But at least the rear glass in the vert isn't blocked by a 4" thick B pillar so it's only really the passenger side visibility that's compromised.

I suppose you could get used to it, but I enjoy the fact that driving a BMW doesn't make me feel like I've been swallowed by the vehicle like the Mustang/Camaro make me feel.

[sgmpw]

Originally Posted by WWM

I traded in my M235i for a 2016 Camaro. The car is faster in a straight line, faster around a track, has more luxury equipment and better mechanical hardware. For almost exactly the same price. The Camaro also fits me better due to my height. I sit lower in the car which means I can sit upright without feeling too high like I feel in the 235i.

It's sad and ironic in a way because I generally dislike muscle cars (not that the new Camaro is really a muscle car anymore). I also really love my 235, but after driving the Camaro, sitting in it, reading the reviews and maybe most importantly, seeing the price, I couldn't resist.

Could you provide me with some insight into the driving experience? Specifically the visibility etc. I'm sold on the performance value relative to the 235 but after sitting in an SS (admittedly indoors black/black) it just felt to restrictive to live with as a daily.

[omega145]

The poor visibility is so understated. I bought the car knowing that it was poor but a year in found me not able to live with it any longer. The cockpit aspect was initially cool and then wore off quickly. Tint the windows and visibility becomes even worse. I see too often especially on the Camaro5 forums people saying that they can see fine out of the car and you only need the mirrors to be aware of your surroundings. That more sounds like someone who's justifying their love for either the brand or the car.
The M235 for me is a much better daily driver.

[sgmpw]

Originally Posted by omega145

The poor visibility is so understated. I bought the car knowing that it was poor but a year in found me not able to live with it any longer. The cockpit aspect was initially cool and then wore off quickly. Tint the windows and visibility becomes even worse. I see too often especially on the Camaro5 forums people saying that they can see fine out of the car and you only need the mirrors to be aware of your surroundings. That more sounds like someone who's justifying their love for either the brand or the car.
The M235 for me is a much better daily driver.

Great real world input. I want to ensure I don't lose sight (pun intended) of reality and get lost in the power/noise/value. In the M235i I felt instantly at 'home'.
Driving the SS in 2 hrs....

[omega145]

Originally Posted by sgmpw

Great real world input. I want to ensure I don't lose sight (pun intended) of reality and get lost in the power/noise/value. In the M235i I felt instantly at 'home'.
Driving the SS in 2 hrs....

Good luck...input is always welcome but at the end of the day, it's your choice and your driving experience. I find the seating position in the 235 to be almost perfect. I didn't quite get that out of the Camaro either. I'd say make sure that you aren't dismissive of certain qualities that you may not like in the future because of the initial rush of "the new thing" that sure has plenty of performance and power.

[multarnc]

Originally Posted by hoppy6698

Ford is doing much better with their ST line ups and even warrantied tuning upgrades is a big first for almost any manufacturer.

The Mopar stage upgrades for the early SRTs pre-dated the STs by almost a decade, but I'm picking nits.

Having sat in the Camaro, I couldn't live with the poor visibility. It is a substantial difference between the Camaro and both the M235 and the M3. The difference in performance isn't worth it to me.

[1LegitM235i]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

Let's replace the filet with ribeye. Filet mignons are flavorless. Maybe more suitable for a Mercedes.

Yeah, I concur. My bad with the choice of meat for BMW. Prime rib would suffice also. Lol!

[merlin3008]

I have not had the chance to drive the V8 Camaro yet, but I did rent a base level last week in San Diego. Powertrain aside, the car was not great. The visibility is simply awful. It was impossible for me to see what was behind me in any direction, and almost as hard to judge where the front end was. The console and controls seem to be oriented downward and almost towards the passenger. It really was not enjoyable.

[WWM]

Originally Posted by sgmpw

Could you provide me with some insight into the driving experience? Specifically the visibility etc. I'm sold on the performance value relative to the 235 but after sitting in an SS (admittedly indoors black/black) it just felt to restrictive to live with as a daily.

The visibility problem is greatly exaggerated I feel. Blind spots are slightly problematic but the 2SS package comes with blind spot monitoring, so it's not a huge deal. Rear visibility isn't great, it was probably the same or slightly worse than the 435i GC that I drove as a loaner. It does however have a backup camera as standard. With that being said, due to my height my head is higher in the car than it would be for others, which helps the visibility quite a bit. For shorter people, they will be quite low in the car which may make visibility worse.

I personally loved the low seating position and high belt-line of the car but I am 6'4. What it would be like for a shorter individual I cannot say.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by WWM

The visibility problem is greatly exaggerated I feel. Blind spots are slightly problematic but the 2SS package comes with blind spot monitoring, so it's not a huge deal. Rear visibility isn't great, it was probably the same or slightly worse than the 435i GC that I drove as a loaner. It does however have a backup camera as standard. With that being said, due to my height my head is higher in the car than it would be for others, which helps the visibility quite a bit. For shorter people, they will be quite low in the car which may make visibility worse.

I personally loved the low seating position and high belt-line of the car but I am 6'4. What it would be like for a shorter individual I cannot say.

I'm 6'4 too, I feel swallowed up. The blind spot monitoring certainly helps, but I don't like the idea of conditioning myself to check the LED over being able to see exactly who's next to me.

Might be able to get used to it in the long term, but I've had a previous ~14 SS rental for a few days and always felt like the top of the car was higher than it needed to be (and the old Auto box was terrible, but I've heard the new 8 speed solves all those issues).

[sgmpw]

So...fresh from a quick 15 min test drive...
Better than I thought to be honest but after calming down a bit I'm settling back on the M235i as my choice (actually - waiting to get my mits on an order sheet for an M240i).

For those that care to hear more...
Visibility
Biggest area of concern for me but out in the real world on a bright but overcast day the black on black (I closed the sunroof for max effect) it wasn't a complete write-off. Note that I stepped out of my STI (fishbowl) into the Camaro (gun slit) so I was pleasantly surprised. Since it's a 2 door the C-pillar wasn't an issue - so much glass my shoulder check was unencumbered. Rear view? Not great but I felt I could see enough in the short town and highway route I took. Front view - yeah, here it gets a bit dicey but again not as brutal as I thought. The dimensions and hoodline never left me feeling like I was spilling over the lines or missing them completely. On the track - I think at pace it would be the same - not ideal but not a disaster.

Back Seat
Uh...I actually did try to get back there. My knee still hurts and I messed up my hair I was going to try and justify squeezing my two kids in there for rare occassions but since they're near 6ft with long legs its a total no-go. A 911 is probably better.

Trunk
Not a huge issue but I am pretty certain I wouldn't get my (rarely used) golf bag in there. Might even be tough to transport full size luggage.

Otherwise it really is an incredible thing. Ride, handling, grunt, noise, shifter, brakes, ergonomics (! never thought I'd say that about a GM)...all wins. I can see why the reviews are so solid.

As always it boils down to personal choice and preferences. If I wanted a weekend toy I might be sold. I need it every day (fun or mundane, alone or with family/friends) year round, so I think it will be the M240i with a set of winters and a smile.

...I really wish it had an LSD though.....hmmmm. Dammit.


aaaaand one more review to ponder: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...aro-ss-review/

[MikeT]

Originally Posted by merlin3008

I have not had the chance to drive the V8 Camaro yet, but I did rent a base level last week in San Diego. Powertrain aside, the car was not great. The visibility is simply awful. It was impossible for me to see what was behind me in any direction, and almost as hard to judge where the front end was. The console and controls seem to be oriented downward and almost towards the passenger. It really was not enjoyable.

What blows me away is that a major (perhaps THE major) criticism of the 5th gen Camaro was the terrible visibility... and GM made essentially zero effort to improve it in the 6th gen. Their excuse was that they talked to Camaro owners who said that looks were more important to them than visibility. And I guess that's fine if you have no desire to expand the appeal of the car beyond your existing loyalists. But if you want to widen your potential market, you have to at least consider what your critics are saying, too.

I suppose that technologies like blind-spot detection and cross-traffic alerts mitigate the problem to some extent, but, man, it wouldn't be enough for me. Maybe I'm old-school, but I like to be able to look over my shoulder once in a while and see if something is coming. If visibility in competitive vehicles were equally bad, then buyers might not care, but even the Mustang has better visibility. And the 2-series has comparatively excellent visibility. Give me a choice between a car that I can't see well out of and one that I can see out of, I'll take the latter.

[mcompact]

I always thought that the 2nd. Generation Camaros were the most attractive. I heard that the powers that be insisted that the new car retain the 1967-1969 styling cues. Pity.

[olehead]

I can only compare a Modified Mustang GT and the M235 since I own both - and I have said before both are great cars - straight line Mustang - everything else M235 - As for
Camero they are always in the rear view mirror at the drag strip when driving the Mustang - But I did test drive one before I got the Mustang and was not for me too bulky, no visibility and cheap interior - I heard the 16 are better tho but if you are considering one test drive the Mustang GT350 first and hang on!!

[omega145]

I had the 2SS package with the blind spot detection and rear view camera but they really weren't that comforting to replace real world visibility.

[sgmpw]

Originally Posted by omega145

I had the 2SS package with the blind spot detection and rear view camera but they really weren't that comforting to replace real world visibility.

yeah - I used the rearview camera and backed it into the space back at the dealership. It worked really well but I guess it kinda has to...

Thanks all for the inputs - it is helping me make up my own mind.

I wonder what a BMW exec would think if he read this (or the vs Mustang etc) posts...laurels anyone?