[sgmpw]

Anyone else test drive these 2 (M235i vs Camaro SS) and have an opinion?

I know it will boil down to personal preference but looking for comment.
I've owned BMW's previously (e.g. 335), enjoying an STI at the moment, nearly settled on an M235i as the next ride.

Initially wanted to experience some V8+manual joy now that the Mustang and Camaro are upping their game. Drove the Ford and couldn't put it in the running against the BMW. Totally discounted the Camaro for sheer visibility and sightlines but...

You've seen the M4/SS review I'm sure so I've decided to go drive one in the real world to see if it can deliver the same ease/joy of driving as the M235.

Me: 40-something, commute under 10 miles/day, 3-6 track/lapping events/year, limited brand snobbery/loyalty, lease vs own so I can change direction every few years, enjoy the driving experience including the feel, visibility, noise

[tbonez3858]

I heavily considered the Camaro for some of the same reasons you did. There is literally NO back seat in the car. Its completely for show. The M235is back seat isnt large but in comparison its cavernous.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by sgmpw

Anyone else test drive these 2 (M235i vs Camaro SS) and have an opinion?

I know it will boil down to personal preference but looking for comment.
I've owned BMW's previously (e.g. 335), enjoying an STI at the moment, nearly settled on an M235i as the next ride.

Initially wanted to experience some V8+manual joy now that the Mustang and Camaro are upping their game. Drove the Ford and couldn't put it in the running against the BMW. Totally discounted the Camaro for sheer visibility and sightlines but...

You've seen the M4/SS review I'm sure so I've decided to go drive one in the real world to see if it can deliver the same ease/joy of driving as the M235.

Me: 40-something, commute under 10 miles/day, 3-6 track/lapping events/year, limited brand snobbery/loyalty, lease vs own so I can change direction every few years, enjoy the driving experience including the feel, visibility, noise

If you saw the MT review, they make a lot of good points. I hate to admit it, but that car is ridiculous for the price, and makes the M4 (and probably a lot of other import cars) look way overpriced and ineffectual by comparison.

Lets just admit it -- if we were all solely concerned about pure performance per dollar, the Camaro wins hands down (or a GT Mustang for that matter). But we aren't, so lets not pretend to be. As much as people don't want to admit it, badge and styling are worth something. Why else would someone pay 30k more for an M4 (or the same price for an M235i that has less of everything), that is in pretty much every objective test equal, and in a lot of subjective ways better? Probably because the car says "Camaro" on the back, which is a crappy thing, but its the truth.

A lot of people want to discount that review (on the M3/M4 boards), but facts are facts, and it is hard to ignore some things. Like the fact that a $70k BMW doesn't have a standard backup camera, or leather seats, or even an option for cooled seats. Or that the V8 in the Camaro simply sounds better -- and I like turbo noises. Or that the Camaro is tens of thousands of dollars cheaper but is similar in build quality (at least initially) and gives about the same amount of performance.

It breaks my heart, but BMW needs to step their game up. American cars are no longer a joke -- they are starting to do (or do) the same thing, or better, for cheaper. Maybe the styling or prestige isn't there for American cars yet, but that is somewhat subjective, and the prestige will come if American cars eat Germany's lunch for long enough.

Try both. See what you enjoy. Still, hard to argue with magride suspension, 3500 lb curb weight, standard LSD, and a throaty, powerful V8 (with 6MT) for $50k max.

[overcoil]

My friend texted me yesterday saying he was selling his ZO6 writing "GM back to it's old games

[MikeT]

Haven't driven the new Camaro, but I did try the Cadillac ATS which is on the same chassis. It's an excellent platform. Great handling. Solid build.

And, as seen in the now-infamous MotorTrend video, GM's V8 is an absolute powerhouse. I have to give them credit for daring to be different by pushing their tried-and-true pushrod V8 into a class-leading position when so much of the world has gone to DOHC, turbos and 6-cyclinders.

Let's face it. The new Camaro offers more bang for the buck than the m235i. You can get more power for less money. And, in terms of steering, suspension and braking, it seems that GM has really upped their game.

With all that said, I personally can't past certain deficiencies of the Camaro. Visibility is a big thing for me, and the Camaro is terrible in this regard. If you want to look over shoulder and see anything, forget it. The c-pillar is a monster. I can't live like that. Also, I like a smaller car. At around 188", the Camaro is really more of a midsize car. It's not only bigger than a 4-series, it's actually closer to a 6-series. And the design of the Camaro is a bit tacky, IMO. The wing-spoiler just doesn't do it for me.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

My friend texted me yesterday saying he was selling his ZO6 writing "GM back to it's old games

Z06 is a separate issue. I have a friend who has had (as with everyone else) the Z06 cooling problems. If they had just put a more powerful LS (or LT, I guess) motor rather than going the supercharger route, car would have been much better.

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by sgmpw

Anyone else test drive these 2 (M235i vs Camaro SS) and have an opinion?

I've owned a number of Camaros over the years and always enjoyed them, and the last time my wife and I were going to visit my son and daughter-in-law I went out of my way to reserve a Camaro SS 6.2L V8 convertible as we planned to take a number of cruises on the hilly & twisty California back roads.
I've never been more disappointed in a car. It just seemed overly heavy, had poor low end torque, poor visibility, just not a fun car to drive.
Taking the twisties was downright scary in that thing. Mind you I had just had a Z4 for a number of years and my daily driver was a 128i convertible. Both of those were more fun than the Camaro SS.
Unless they've made a lot of improvements to the Camaro in the past 2 - 3 years, I can't see how you can even compare it to a M235i - not even in the same universe - IMHO.

[1LegitM235i]

I agree with you Liquidpaper that BMW will have to step up their game since Ford and GM has finally gained some performance and styling advancement. However, let's use some food analogy here for a moment. Ford is a hot dog, GM is a burger and BMW is a filet mignon. Hot dogs and burgers are eaten by just about anybody, whenever and just because it's easy to make and you can make a lot of it without getting broke. Filet mignon on the other hand is specially selected because of its special cut, price, aged, rareness, special occasion, etc. Hot dogs and burgers are just not at the same food class as a filet mignon...nuff said.

Before I bought my M235i, I considered the new mustang 5.0 for it's price and styling/power. It took for my son to say these words to change my mind, "Dad, do you really want to drive a car that everyone drives?" I know the SS "performance" is at M4 level (but that's really it), but it will never have the prestige that any M cars has and yes I'm including the M235i and the rest of the BMW line up.

[gunnersfan10]

Haven't driven a new Camaro yet. However I've spent time in the 2010 model SS as well as numerous Mustangs. You can't beat them for performance per $$$. However there's a reason, and it was usually the interiors and refinement. I sold cars for a while and the biggest difference is after a car has 3-4 years and +50k on it. The luxury brands just hold up better because of better materials and NVH is no contest. Just my .02$

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by 1LegitM235i

I agree with you Liquidpaper that BMW will have to step up their game since Ford and GM has finally gained some performance and styling advancement. However, let's use some food analogy here for a moment. Ford is a hot dog, GM is a burger and BMW is a filet mignon. Hot dogs and burgers are eaten by just about anybody, whenever and just because it's easy to make and you can make a lot of it without getting broke. Filet mignon on the other hand is specially selected because of its special cut, price, aged, rareness, special occasion, etc. Hot dogs and burgers are just not at the same food class as a filet mignon...nuff said.

Before I bought my M235i, I considered the new mustang 5.0 for it's price and styling/power. It took for my son to say these words to change my mind, "Dad, do you really want to drive a car that everyone drives?" I know the SS "performance" is at M4 level (but that's really it), but it will never have the prestige that any M cars has and yes I'm including the M235i and the rest of the BMW line up.

That is the point. BMW used to get by on the fact that it simply made a better car -- better engineered, better tuned, etc. That is no longer the case. The cars it makes are definitely capable, but they simply are no longer the only game in town, which is a good thing if you ask me. Competition leads to better products and better prices.

I don't think the food analogy is accurate. If you look at the MT review, their whole point is that on a completely objective metric, under perfect conditions, the M4 beats the Camaro (but not by much). But if you let that go for a second and just review how the car makes you feel (as a driver) the Camaro wins hands down.

The funny thing is that depending on where you live, the BMW is the hot dog or hamburger and the Camaro is the filet. I live in West Los Angeles. Let me tell you how often I see an M3/M4 --- about 5 times a day. You wanna know how often I see a Camaro SS or Mustang GT/GT350? Never.

But, this whole thing is subjective . . . which is the point. BMW used to win by such a large objective margin that you could not possibly overcome that with subjective opinion (not rationally), and in any case, they were subjectively better as well. Now, they are dead even with a car that is, arguably, subjectively better. BMW just needs to try harder. They can do it, they just have to make the commitment.

[1LegitM235i]

Great points! I believe in a good competition as well. BMW definitely has to take it to a new level and not just push the current standards if they want to be the top dog. But look how long it took for Ford/GM to get to where they are today? Where do you think their R&D came from? Maybe from Germany?! Probably from an ex-BMW engineer/designer. That's how they leveled the playing field.

The automobile game is about playing catch up and at the end of the day, everyone knows where their place is at. I hate to say it, but American cars are in there own territory and Europeans are in there own. Just like I know where BMW's place is at compare to Porsche. We can be subjective about the margins between the two all day and it's still won't change how the majority of people look and feel about both cars.

[Xiaoxi]

Originally Posted by 1LegitM235i

Ford is a hot dog, GM is a burger and BMW is a filet mignon. Hot dogs and burgers are eaten by just about anybody, whenever and just because it's easy to make and you can make a lot of it without getting broke. Filet mignon on the other hand is specially selected because of its special cut, price, aged, rareness, special occasion, etc.

Let's replace the filet with ribeye. Filet mignons are flavorless. Maybe more suitable for a Mercedes.

[hoppy6698]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

BMW just needs to try harder. They can do it, they just have to make the commitment.

I will agree on this point. The E46 platform (imo) is the last great BMW platform that outperformed anything close, in almost any guise (325, 328, 330, M3). Since then, Ford has gone on a global platform rampage (for the better) and GM can still make a few niceties now and then (Camaro, ATS, CTS, Vette). However, the rest of GM just fails aesthetically to me every time. Ford is doing much better with their ST line ups and even warrantied tuning upgrades is a big first for almost any manufacturer.

But all of us 2er owners know BMW did not 'give it their best' when designing the 2 series. We has all read or experienced little niggles and issues that never plagues earlier BMWs. They are making too many sacrifices to ensure BMW purity (not being owned by other conglomerates) to stay true to their old "ultimate driving machine" mantra.

Still love my M235 - that straight six just sings when going down straights or hitting on ramps, I love it But I wish the door panels did not pop off randomly, the stock speakers / system is worse than listening to a cell phone speaker, and parts like an LSD were optional (one that I bought, but you get my point).

OH, and the worst, nickel & dime issue I have - the steering wheel! The interior threading is EXACTLY the same pattern and design as any other M car, but all in black - not the BMW Motorsport colors. Why?? It almost seems like it would have been cheaper to order more M steering wheels than to create a brand new all black version. Very odd to me.

But I still love the car (now that I have the sound system upgraded and MP CF interior installed). Given that the M2 MSRP is only about $1k north of my M235, BMW obviously was more efficient in that build than the original 2er and it shows. Maybe they will continue to improve their designs to ensure the little bits of cheapness are kept at bay in the future.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by hoppy6698

I will agree on this point. The E46 platform (imo) is the last great BMW platform that outperformed anything close, in almost any guise (325, 328, 330, M3). Since then, Ford has gone on a global platform rampage (for the better) and GM can still make a few niceties now and then (Camaro, ATS, CTS, Vette). However, the rest of GM just fails aesthetically to me every time. Ford is doing much better with their ST line ups and even warrantied tuning upgrades is a big first for almost any manufacturer.

But all of us 2er owners know BMW did not 'give it their best' when designing the 2 series. We has all read or experienced little niggles and issues that never plagues earlier BMWs. They are making too many sacrifices to ensure BMW purity (not being owned by other conglomerates) to stay true to their old "ultimate driving machine" mantra.

Still love my M235 - that straight six just sings when going down straights or hitting on ramps, I love it But I wish the door panels did not pop off randomly, the stock speakers / system is worse than listening to a cell phone speaker, and parts like an LSD were optional (one that I bought, but you get my point).

OH, and the worst, nickel & dime issue I have - the steering wheel! The interior threading is EXACTLY the same pattern and design as any other M car, but all in black - not the BMW Motorsport colors. Why?? It almost seems like it would have been cheaper to order more M steering wheels than to create a brand new all black version. Very odd to me.

But I still love the car (now that I have the sound system upgraded and MP CF interior installed). Given that the M2 MSRP is only about $1k north of my M235, BMW obviously was more efficient in that build than the original 2er and it shows. Maybe they will continue to improve their designs to ensure the little bits of cheapness are kept at bay in the future.

Good points. Look, I love my 2er, especially after doing a few mods to it. However, you can't compare modded car to modded car, and bone stock, BMW just leaves some things out that they really should not. The fact that the M235i didn't come with an LSD as standard (or even a factory option) is a crime when many other similar performance cars (American performance cars -- Mercedes and Audi do the same thing BMW does) come with this type of equipment.

[B_Rice]

One of my coworkers just picked up a Camaro SS with the magnetic ride and dual mode exhaust.
While I'm not a fan of the styling at all it is a really nice car. The interior materials are much better than the previous gen and so is the tech. Exhaust note is glorious in race mode.
Now my main issue is practicality, I really can't understand how a car that's so much bigger than the 2 series carry so little things. The trunk opening is about half the size of the whole width of a car and the "back seats" are laughable. (I'm only 5"8 and I have to cock my head to not touch the ceiling.

tl;dr
Everything is wonderful except it has the practicality of a 1 and a half z4s.

[Lucky13]

The 228 auto is not only faster than the 4 cyl Camaro but its faster than the 6 cyl Camaro, 228 did 4.9 0-60 in Motor Trend vs 5.4 for the 6 cyl Camaro so lets talk the SS. It takes Chevy 6.2 liter to do what any german builder can do basically with a 3.0. The real question is why would someone buy a Cadillac ATS-V or Corvette if they can get the Camaro SS. The reality is a GM guy will pretty much stay with GM cars and as much as GM would like to shift the focus to the Germans they are eating their own. Its pretty much like the new Cadillac CT6 which is probably a good car but the CTS was already in the toilet down 45% last year and now they just killed the CTS totally by introducing the CT6. GM is falling into the same trap that killed them in 2007, way too many models that compete with their own cars. I really don't understand their strategy for cars, they can't give away Cadillac cars yet they think the Camaro only competes with other brands outside of GM. I grew up on only GM cars and would never consider owning one now, a Mustang maybe because it looks good but a Camaro is hidious.

[omega145]

Traded in my Camaro SS for the 235. Visibility is awful in the Camaro and the back seats are more than cramped. Performance is nice and it's a mean looking car but as a daily driver, I'm enjoying the 235 way more than I ever enjoyed the Camaro. Not to mention the Camaro wasn't anywhere near as good in the snow as the 235.

[xantdieselx]

I'm fairly certain that getting their asses kicked all of these years has caused American auto manufacturers to up their game. Both GM and Ford are putting out some world class cars. The Camaro is no exception. If you watched the video on Head to Head the MSRP on the Camaro was 46k. Thats a lot of coin. I look at my M235i and think its an absolute bargain for what I paid (46.9k). I just can't see paying that kind of money for and American car.

[fun2drive]

Camero vs M235 to me is all about the driving experience. I drive BMWs because of how they drive. Many marques have caught up with BMW and that distinction isn't as great as it used to be.
I think the M235 will help me return to that experience more so than my current E93. I owned M3's for 12 years and the biggest mistake I made was not keeping them. Without going to the M2 i think the M235 is about as close to that experience as you can get.

Look at it this way all car companies are making some pretty incredible cars compared to just 10 years ago...

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by bimmerfile

Unless they've made a lot of improvements to the Camaro in the past 2 - 3 years, I can't see how you can even compare it to a M235i - not even in the same universe - IMHO.

OMG...

All due respect, but have you been living under a rock? The newly revamped Camaro SS has been the talk of car enthusiasts and auto shows for months now, and Motor Trend just confirmed how great it is by comparing it to an $80K M4, where the Camaro won every objective measured test, and won the comparison. The car is almost 300 pounds lighter than the previous generation, loaded with standard features that put BMW to shame, and has upped the quality to where it is no longer a joke.

I mean MT compared it to the M4. You're right - how can you compare it to the M235i? I'll say this - M235i owners will get a good look at the Camaro's taillights at track days, because those cars will outright smoke ours. And this is the standard 2SS. The 1LE is yet to come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I

[sgmpw]

Great comments all. Driving the SS tomorrow so I'll share my observations.

[doccyber]

I like my car because of its small size and may I dare to say its handling. All American sport coupes are just too big for my taste. Also have you ever sat inside a Camaro? It is dungeon like and what's up with those ridiculously placed center HVAC vents. Interior build quality is just too down market. Performance wise yes, no car will beat the Mustangs and Camaro at their price range. I am pleased to see that we are now making cars that is giving the Germans a run for their money but we need to make them a little smaller and less chintzy inside.