[scutts]

Originally Posted by ssstraub

Did you forget to put winter tires on your 135i? Beginner mistake.

RWD with proper winter tires > AWD with summer tires or "all seasons". AWD does nothing to help you stop on ice.

Seriously, AWD > RWD in snow situation. Why compare AWD with summers and RWD with winters? I'm not saying RWD with winters is bad. Just comparatively it is inferior in snow. If you haven't had STi with winters, you should try. It's a freaking tank in snow compared to M3.

[epic]

If this is going off-topic, I'll chime in.

I was not impressed with my 08 335xi with all-season tires this winter. My 06 Pontiac GTO with snow tires was way better.

[PDX1er]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Because it is a car aimed at pleasing diehard enthusiasts (that's one of its purposes, at least).

Diehard enthusiasts like to track their cars.

Monitoring things like oil and coolant temperature are important at the track. Especially in N54 and N55-equipped cars. These cars have had a history of running hot (especially at the track) and if the oil temperature gets too toasty, these cars go into limp mode.

At least if you can measure/gauge the oil temperature while on the track, you can start to back off for a bit and let the oil cooler do its job without having to shut the car down for a while.

Never mind that most of us like to monitor our oil temperatures on a daily driving basis so we know when the car is warmed up (and thus, we can know when we can start to trash it).

All of my 335i sedans had an oil temperature gauge (both E90 and F30) and my C63 has a dedicated menu where I can track all vital fluid temperatures. On a performance-oriented car, having those temperature readouts somewhere is imperative, IMHO.

+1 on gauges. Unfortunately for STi's in track conditions, half the oil is in the intercooler and the other half is everywhere except the oil pickup and cylinder #4

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by PDX1er

+1 on gauges. Unfortunately for STi's in track conditions, half the oil is in the intercooler and the other half is everywhere except the oil pickup and cylinder #4

I know I shouldn't laugh at this because I've never had an STi and I don't have any meaningful/productive thoughts on them but still . . .

That doesn't sound like a fun issue.

[Falafel Combo]

Originally Posted by ssstraub

Did you forget to put winter tires on your 135i? Beginner mistake.

RWD with proper winter tires > AWD with summer tires or "all seasons". AWD does nothing to help you stop on ice.

You're both wrong. Spring is here.

[biz77]

Originally Posted by shatty

You guys keep knocking the STI. You say that it rattles? Has anyone driven the '15? So you're speculating. Which out of the 3 is more practical? Can you drive the 235i with 3 inches of snow on the ground? I dont think so. I had a 135i cab and the thing didnt move with 1 inch of snow on the ground. I actually ordered the STi the day after Valentines Day and expecting it end of April.. Did not get the Launch Edition with gold wheels cause its tacky. Got the white limited with smoked wheels. I actually had a WRX before the 135 and I wanted a BMW because of the quality. Hands down quality is superb compared to the Subaru. But the STi is just more practical especially in NY. The BMW just took all bumps hard. I don't know how they even did this comparison. The STi is not even in the same league. Its below. Its a rally machine, not luxury.

Living in New York, I would think one would be familiar with the concept of snow tires?
I have no issues plowing through 8" of the white stuff in my RWD 335i with Blizzaks on all four corners. I've owned a 2005 STi and 2006 Legacy GT (also with Blizzaks in the winter, as you would have to be a blithering idiot to try and drive the STi in winter with the factory Bridgestone 070 tires) and haven't had an occasion where I missed the AWD. That said, I do find the 2015 WRX with the FA20DIT motor very intriguing.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by biz77

Living in New York, I would think one would be familiar with the concept of snow tires?
I have no issues plowing through 8" of the white stuff in my RWD 335i with Blizzaks on all four corners. I've owned a 2005 STi and 2006 Legacy GT (also with Blizzaks in the winter, as you would have to be a blithering idiot to try and drive the STi in winter with the factory Bridgestone 070 tires) and haven't had an occasion where I missed the AWD. That said, I do find the 2015 WRX with the FA20DIT motor very intriguing.

Yes, the 1M was the BMW STI and it was great and big hit. BMW needs an STI type car. How can any self-respecting car guy knock a car that is as fun and actually as reliable, if not more, than BMWs. Yes, it rattles a bit but so did my 1M and my friends E90 335i and my 330 ZHP. The STI is not for everyone but it IS cross shopped with the M235i. If I wasn't turned off by the looks of it, it would be high on my list. Alcantara seats, fast, manual transmission and a blast to drive.

If I lived in snow country, no contest, Subaru all the way. You don't have to like something to see its effects. The BRZ/FRS, STI, Mustang GT are keeping manly cars alive.

If Subaru STI'd the M235i, I would be all over it, and my guess is that it would have an oil temp gauge too.

[Wheelwright]

Originally Posted by nachob

The STI is not for everyone but it IS cross shopped with the M235i. If I wasn't turned off by the looks of it, it would be high on my list. Alcantara seats, fast, manual transmission and a blast to drive.

If I lived in snow country, no contest, Subaru all the way.

Those fancy "Alcantara seats" are completely outclassed by BMW seats, in fact they lack tilt control for the seat-cushion which means they can't be adjusted comfortably for some drivers.

Also in Subaru you don't have 3-times-blink turn indicator which makes changing lanes a chore. Moreover the gas pedal is top-hinged causing difficulty in consistent throttle control (translation: your shifting is not so smooth).

And if you look at Subaru specsheet the car has surprisingly low ground clearance at only 125mm (compared to BMW's 130mm). This means that in winter it will double as a snow plow: 4WD notwithstanding. At least the previous Subaru STI had 150mm ground clearance, what are they trying to achieve with the new one ?

Subaru looks good in magazine ads until you start analyzing it in detail and then the magic bubble bursts. That car has some serious ergonomic and functional deficiency even compared to lower-specs BMW like my 128i. In short: STI feels like a step down from what we take for granted. The new M235i doesn't because it only improves and builds on things that make BMW, well, a BMW.

[KG3356MT]

RWD still sucks with winters on, I have them on my M3 and it's no replacement for AWD with winters on. Back on topic, I would love to tune a M235i with xdrive. Proper traction with massive torque.

[Delnari]

I traded my tuned WRX (more power than standard STi) for the M235i. No regrets! Loving my new BMW more so than I did the WRX. Will miss the snow plowing fun the WRX could do, even with A/S tires on.

[shatty]

Originally Posted by ssstraub

Did you forget to put winter tires on your 135i? Beginner mistake.

RWD with proper winter tires > AWD with summer tires or "all seasons". AWD does nothing to help you stop on ice.

Nothing can help u stop on ice no matter what tires you have. Unless u have metal spikes or chains LOL

[shatty]

Originally Posted by biz77

Living in New York, I would think one would be familiar with the concept of snow tires?
I have no issues plowing through 8" of the white stuff in my RWD 335i with Blizzaks on all four corners. I've owned a 2005 STi and 2006 Legacy GT (also with Blizzaks in the winter, as you would have to be a blithering idiot to try and drive the STi in winter with the factory Bridgestone 070 tires) and haven't had an occasion where I missed the AWD. That said, I do find the 2015 WRX with the FA20DIT motor very intriguing.

I would love to see that! 8" of snow with that car. Ground clearance on the 335 is 5"-6"!

Anyways the STi should not be compared to the other 2. Totally different animal. Yes, they have used the same engine for the past decade. But why? There must be a good reason for it. Yes, the car is a rice burner, yes it doesnt look as good as the 2. But I have not heard a bad review on the way the car drives. There should be no discussion on the review at all cause it was idiotic comparing all 3. Another thing...the STi sounds siiiiiiiiiiick with a stock exhaust. Even better with an aftermarket. Its fun to tune them and mod them.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by basiluf

In the US the average new Cayman S has an asking price of over $80k USD. That's almost double the average M235i asking price. The M4 should be a much better competitor against the Cayman S.

* I guess only losing by 2 points on a 300 point scale is a huge win for a car costing almost half as much as the Porsche.

It was reflected on the price: The Porsche had 3 points and the BMW 7. A comparo with non S Cayman would have been a better one and the M235i would have won...

[Haywood]

I tired of people talking about how BMW is not making good, drivers cars anymore. The 2 series is getting nothing but great reviews. I'm anxiously awaiting the M2. That is going to be screamer.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by ssstraub

Did you forget to put winter tires on your 135i? Beginner mistake.

RWD with proper winter tires > AWD with summer tires or "all seasons". AWD does nothing to help you stop on ice.

Please read how X drive works, especially in relationship with other systems on board.
You should also read what is actually AWD and how it works.
When four wheels are moving you have two more wheels with traction, you do the math and see how is that better than a RWD, especially with a system that is capable to transfer properly the power.

[BrunoT]

Originally Posted by johanness

Really??? But it's still "too softly sprung with too many secondary motions"?? What an idiot

Hey Randy... Use your single brain cell and think of the cars BMW has produced over the last ten years (e46, e86, e92 etc), and then correct your statement.

Fool

I think that comment was from Johnny, not Randy.

And I'm going to go with the pro's opinion. He drives them all.

[Duster]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Please read how X drive works, especially in relationship with other systems on board.
You should also read what is actually AWD and how it works.
When four wheels are moving you have two more wheels with traction, you do the math and see how is that better than a RWD, especially with a system that is capable to transfer properly the power.

Safety in winter driving is more about stopping a moving car as opposed to moving a stopped car. AWD helps you get moving, it doesn't help you stop. Good winter tires help you do both.

I wouldn't drive any car, with any drive configuration, on snow or ice without winter tires. For the last few years I've been driving a 300+hp RWD car in Canadian winters w no problems.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by Duster

Safety in winter driving is more about stopping a moving car as opposed to moving a stopped car. AWD helps you get moving, it doesn't help you stop. Good winter tires help you do both.

I wouldn't drive any car, with any drive configuration, on snow or ice without winter tires. For the last few years I've been driving a 300+hp RWD car in Canadian winters w no problems.

Safety in the winter is about driving in winter. If the car doesn't move, you have nothing to stop. BTW, an AWD it does help you to stop, ther are four wheels listening to your input. AWD with TC do a good job in distributing the power and that helps a lot in comparison with two moving wheels.
I drove all cars with all the tires. I found that regardless of tires an AWD will ALWAYS move and stop better in the snow; you release the power slowly, all wheels are doing a job, not only two and other two just follow whatever. AWD is made for winter. I also find out that you can have the guru of the winter tires, when two wheels are stuck on black ice, the other two can push you through; if you have them.
I went from FWD to RWD with all-season and winter tires. Now I can afford to have a dedicated winter vehicle. I also live in Canada, and I am going skying and all that jazz. Guess what? I hate taking the vehicle to any mechanic or shop and for that reason I am keeping my OEM wheels with winter tires inthe garage. I am running some good all-season tires on an AWD vehicle and I never got a problem. And I passed a lot of RWD vehicles on winter tires on my way. Actually, a Camaro last week lost control right in front of me and smashed on the wall.
Tires can do that much, after a certain point RWD vehicle has certain limits regardless.
If I will need to pick one car only, regardless how much fun a RWD can bring (in the summer) that will be an X vehicle for me.
And even so, XDrive is RWD biased so the fun is still there.
I drove an AWD Jaguar for years with all season tires and never got stuck.

[Duster]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Safety in the winter is about driving in winter. If the car doesn't move, you have nothing to stop. BTW, an AWD it does help you to stop, ther are four wheels listening to your input. AWD with TC do a good job in distributing the power and that helps a lot in comparison with two moving wheels.
I drove all cars with all the tires. I found that regardless of tires an AWD will ALWAYS move and stop better in the snow; you release the power slowly, all wheels are doing a job, not only two and other two just follow whatever. AWD is made for winter. I also find out that you can have the guru of the winter tires, when two wheels are stuck on black ice, the other two can push you through; if you have them.
I went from FWD to RWD with all-season and winter tires. Now I can afford to have a dedicated winter vehicle. I also live in Canada, and I am going skying and all that jazz. Guess what? I hate taking the vehicle to any mechanic or shop and for that reason I am keeping my OEM wheels with winter tires inthe garage. I am running some good all-season tires on an AWD vehicle and I never got a problem. And I passed a lot of RWD vehicles on winter tires on my way. Actually, a Camaro last week lost control right in front of me and smashed on the wall.
Tires can do that much, after a certain point RWD vehicle has certain limits regardless.
If I will need to pick one car only, regardless how much fun a RWD can bring (in the summer) that will be an X vehicle for me.
And even so, XDrive is RWD biased so the fun is still there.
I drove an AWD Jaguar for years with all season tires and never got stuck.

While I can agree with some of what you say, that AWD is better than RWD, I simply can't agree that it's a good idea to drive through a Canadian winter without winter tires. AWD simply doesn't replace traction. It redistributes the traction you have, and only while you are driving the wheels forward.

Anyway, we won't agree on this, and we've hijacked the thread. Sorry - let's get back to the topic.

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

This comparison from the german magazine "Autobild" is a little more telling: the Porsche Cayman S VS the M235i, and the Porsche won by... 2 points!



Translation excerpts (sorry if not exact...):

How much Porsche is the BMW?

The Cayman in our opinion maintains the Classic Porsche virtues: compact, lightweight and with the potent boxer engine from the 911. The 3.4-liter six-cylinder delivers 325 hp, and 370 Nm at 4500 rpm. The PDK seven-speed
Dual-clutch transmission is available for 2826 euros and adaptive dampers
for 1428 euros.

Does BMW even has a chance to win against it? The bavarian manufacturer (almost) pulled out all the stops with the new 2-series. The coupe version of the 1's Series has a likeable size and looks dazzling. It reminds you of the 02 Series from the 70's. And for the M235i, the top model of the range, BMW has sharpened the looks even more. Its 3-liter inline six-cylinder engine produces 326 bhp and 450 Nm at a low at 1300 Rpm. Transmission is the splendid eight-speed Sport Automatic made by ZF (2250 euros option), and the car has 18-inch wheels, sport-steering and brakes. Options are the adaptive suspension (760 Euro) and limited-slip differential (2890 euros, installation about 235 Euros). The M235i is comes to the competition prepared. And it shots like a catapult: with Launch Control (race-start function) it tears smoothly in 5 seconds from 0-100-km/h, slightly above the factory specification of 4.8 seconds. The double-scroll turbocharged Three liters pushes early and powerfully then turns wild... but always maintaining the classic in-line six cylinder howl. The eight-speed automatic reacts incredibly quickly, especially on Sport or Sport +. This engine and this gearbox, we can not write it often enough, are one of the best drive packages ever.

But then the Cayman S does the same feat in 4.6 seconds to 100 (also with Launch Control). The free-breathing 3.4-liter boxer needs higher Rpm's to deliver its power, but turns even wilder than the BMW, with amazing response. The engine sounds harder and more metallic than the 2 series, and makes the car much more alert. The seven-speed PDK reacts extremely quickly and in sports and Sport Plus mode, even increase the shifts speeds to lightning fast. Lovely, too, is the throttle blip when downshifting. On the dry handling course, a demanding, 3800 meter track, the Porsche sets a time of 1:34,23 minutes, which is only slower than the best 10 cars ever measured there. The car moves, especially in sport plus mode, as if it has sharpened senses, responsive and snappy. The steering obeys the smallest imputs and the Cayman turns sharply. One striking characteristic: the excellent traction in any situation. Of course, the mid-engine layout puts more weight on the driven rear axle. The axle load distribution is at 44:56. The BMW with its front-engine, has a F/R ratio of 52:48 and cannot put its power on the asphalt quite as well. It laps the track in 1:36,53 minutes - more than two seconds slower than the Porsche.

To avoid any misunderstanding, the BMW has a fine handling, a finely tuned steering and sensitively tuned ESP. It is only it is not as focused as the Porsche. And it weighs 1559 kilos: 130 more than the Cayman (1429 kilos). On the other hand, the BMW can carry 2 more passengers , which is impossible with the Porsche.

This Cayman S test car with optional equipments (amongst others, Sport Chrono Package at 2023 Euro, locking rear differential at 1309 Euro, 20-inch wheels at 1428 euros) costs 73,394 euros. A difference of more than 23,000 euros versus the BMW (49,650 euros), which is the price of a hot hatch!

Conclusion:
The Cayman S has the classic virtues of the Porsche brand: low weight, snappy engines and agile handling. And just because the Cayman S shows the M235i its limits, it's still one razor-sharp compact coupe. The Porsche is simply a flawless athlete.

Agreed that German car magazines like Auto Bild or Sport Auto provide much better and reliable perspective compared to magazines like MT. MT numerical data are usually solid though and I find this comparo also with expected data on the M235i. Best bang for the buck without a doubt imo.

On a side note, Auto Bild test one more time shows that even with AT or DCT and both with launch control, neither M235i nor Cayman S are able to walk away from a stock 1M which was not only with a classical manual transmission but also with inferior tires at the time of Auto Bild's test back in late 2011. Only Cayman S starts pulling away around 200 km/h shows these tests, and that is due to a much better aero starting to kick in at those speeds.

I would expect both being quicker than 1M to at least 50 and even to 100 km/h with the auto boxes and launch control doing their trick.

Also, Auto Bild's Contidrom track lap with the 1M (tires PS2) was quicker than the tested M235i (1:35.76 vs. 1:36.53) despite new car's auto box, tires as PSS and adaptive dampers, all important advantages over 1M's fundamentals. 1M was considerably faster than the M235i with manual box on the Sachsenring (Hockenheim too?, not sure if that is released too), yet again done by the same Auto Bild. There is also another (1:34.56) time of 1M clocked on Contidrom which is not only further quicker (almost 2 sec) than the M235i, it is also merely 0.3 seconds shy of the PDK Cayman S time by Auto Bild and I would bet that it would really threaten the Cayman S on tracks, simply with a tire other than the misfit factory PS2s, i.e. the PSS. Obviously manual transmission M235i is not a threat to track performance of the 1M as it has been tested till now. Maybe M235i fits better on longer, different tracks, can't comment on that before seeing some results.

While M235i and M135i are definitely great value performance oriented cars, BMW needs a M2 sooner than later. M3/M4 may be wonderful too and will certainly better the 1M on performance data by a mile; but they also are really big cars. Just my 2c.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by Wheelwright

Also in Subaru you don't have 3-times-blink turn indicator which makes changing lanes a chore.

Wow, of all the complaints about a car and yet this comes up. Just wow

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Jockey

Wow, of all the complaints about a car and yet this comes up. Just wow

LOL!

When the 1M came out one complained the vanity mirror light was deleted in the 1M!

True story! One day I'll tell my grandkids the story about the missing vanity light in a sports sedan and missing three spot blinker...which I never liked anyway.


I guess that's the real issue here.

We have a group that values some things more than others but BMW is confusing the market by putting ///Ms on their cars which were for the guys that valued oil temperature gauges, steering feedback, firm suspensions and lighter weight and even the dinosaur manual transmission.

Then there is the other group that wants good engineering in a car that is comfortable but can go fast and has cool stuff to play with in the cockpit and an auto transmission that lets you play with sometimes if you track or find a nice mountain road.

The latter group actually has the most pragmatic view and we all know it the problem for the first group is that there are soooooo many cars that can go fast, have cool gadgets, adjustable this and adjustable electronic that already and little the options for the first group are going away. So it's not that we hate anything or disagree that M235i is an awesome little car from BMW but they take away things that like the oil gauge which is important to those with "mechanical empathy" that want to track their cars or drive them hard but care about keeping their car safe.

I work in IT and spend 10 hours a day solving computing bugs, looking at code, reading manuals and trying helping others resolve complex computing issues. I get home and my kids want help with Excel, the Web and the wife's computer needs an OS refresh. When I get in my car, I don't want a three point blinker or to read a manual on launch control and customize steering and suspension and throttle settings. I want to hit the gas, shift the gears and have the steering, engine and suspension speak to me.

That's why we need a proper M2 still and why I respect the STI. Even if it is "inferior" they are trying to build cars that appeal to the first group and unfortunately I'm in it. I truly wish I was in the second because BMW makes so many cars in different shapes and sizes for them and my "first world" life would be simpler.