[W///]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Here's the thing - I have a 235. One of the first ones on the board - I have had it since March 3 of 2014 - so roughly 16 months.

I have been considering an F80 for quite a while now because the 235 just doesn't do it for me. Main problem? Floaty suspension, vague braking feel, and overall squishy-ness. It is definitely an improvement in many ways over my 2 135s (looks, interior quality), but not so much in terms of how the car feels.

The F80, on the other hand, is on a different planet. The engine, which we won't see in the M2, is much more responsive and raw. The car feels 10 X's more planted - we are getting the chassis/suspension technology on the M2. And the brakes are MUCH better - which we are also getting.

So the car is basically a badass F80 from the belt line down...Add to that an LSD, quad exhaust, bigger wheels and tires (also a weak point of the 235), and the fender flares and what do you have? You have a VERY different car than the one that I am currently driving. Even without the S engine.

Perfectly said! And you didn't even mention things like different EPS and directly mounted rear subframe.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by W///

Perfectly said! And you didn't even mention things like different EPS and directly mounted rear subframe.

See, even more reason to understand that the M2 will truly be a different car than the 235.

[challer]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Here's the thing - I have a 235. One of the first ones on the board - I have had it since March 3 of 2014 - so roughly 16 months.

I have been considering an F80 for quite a while now because the 235 just doesn't do it for me. Main problem? Floaty suspension, vague braking feel, and overall squishy-ness. It is definitely an improvement in many ways over my 2 135s (looks, interior quality), but not so much in terms of how the car feels.

The F80, on the other hand, is on a different planet. The engine, which we won't see in the M2, is much more responsive and raw. The car feels 10 X's more planted - we are getting the chassis/suspension technology on the M2. And the brakes are MUCH better - which we are also getting.

So the car is basically a badass F80 from the belt line down...Add to that an LSD, quad exhaust, bigger wheels and tires (also a weak point of the 235), and the fender flares and what do you have? You have a VERY different car than the one that I am currently driving. Even without the S engine.

As far as the original question goes, there are others here that are of the same mind as me (///W comes to mind) - we would love to see a 1M estate or M2GC because we want to have all the fun of an M car...and our dogs can come too.

Well, in this case it's my wife and kid, but I totally agree with your sentiments. I need a M2 GC right away, a BMW Individual M3 or a CPO M5. Them's the options.

[challer]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

The consolation prize is that there will be a hardcore version of the M2. Scott26 had said that he'd seen one that resembles the BMW Vision GT---but with smaller wheel flares and wing. This will probably be really limited.

If only they made it four doors.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by challer

If only they made it four doors.

Why would they make the CSL version or whatever it maybe called a sedan? It is supposed to be lighter and more hardcore than the M2. And it is supposed to be be a toned down version of this:


Making that 4 doors wouldn't make sense.

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Here's the thing - I have a 235. One of the first ones on the board - I have had it since March 3 of 2014 - so roughly 16 months.

I have been considering an F80 for quite a while now because the 235 just doesn't do it for me. Main problem? Floaty suspension, vague braking feel, and overall squishy-ness. It is definitely an improvement in many ways over my 2 135s (looks, interior quality), but not so much in terms of how the car feels.

The F80, on the other hand, is on a different planet. The engine, which we won't see in the M2, is much more responsive and raw. The car feels 10 X's more planted - we are getting the chassis/suspension technology on the M2. And the brakes are MUCH better - which we are also getting.

So the car is basically a badass F80 from the belt line down...Add to that an LSD, quad exhaust, bigger wheels and tires (also a weak point of the 235), and the fender flares and what do you have? You have a VERY different car than the one that I am currently driving. Even without the S engine.

As far as the original question goes, there are others here that are of the same mind as me (///W comes to mind) - we would love to see a 1M estate or M2GC because we want to have all the fun of an M car...and our dogs can come too.

I'm with you all the way to the end... My F30 is much like your 235 in feel, but I personally don't need yet another 4-door, so i want a 2 door that is more driving focused.

So if the M2 is basically a F80 below the belt as you say, the engine is ~ 380hp (This is my guess - 50 less than the M3/4, 100 less than the M5), with some weight reduction, then it definitely is going to be a pistol.

Originally Posted by W///

You think so? I disagree:


If there is a model they should make, this is it. Not more GT cars IMHO.

1997ish E36? Yeah i like that one too... though its a tad longer than the 2-series and definitely a bit wider I think.

How about no more GT cars or GC cars - coupe and saloon and that's it.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

1997ish E36? Yeah i like that one too... though its a tad longer than the 2-series and definitely a bit wider I think.

The E36 sedan and the 2-series are actually the identical length, 174.5". The E36 is 66.8" wide whereas the 2-series is 3" wider at 69.8". The E36 saloon is 54.8" high while the 2-series is 55.8" high. Hence the E36 will fit within the confines of space the 2-series occupies and therefore the reason why many want to see a BMW saloon/sedan of that size once again. I would think this would especially be desired in Europe with so many small roads, small parking spaces, etc.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

I'm with you all the way to the end... My F30 is much like your 235 in feel, but I personally don't need yet another 4-door, so i want a 2 door that is more driving focused.

So if the M2 is basically a F80 below the belt as you say, the engine is ~ 380hp (This is my guess - 50 less than the M3/4, 100 less than the M5), with some weight reduction, then it definitely is going to be a pistol.

The 235 is 3505 in U.S. spec with a manual transmission, but I am willing to bet the M2 will be a little lighter - just not a lot. 3400 is probably the best any of us can hope for and is right in line with what the 1M weighed, but with the M2 will have arguably better tech - so it really should be a good car.

We have heard numbers for the engine varying from 365-375, and for the reasons you state above, that range seems to make sense. Of course, that means it will be rated in BMW German ponies, aka it will likely be much closer to 400 real world horsepower.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by challer

Well, in this case it's my wife and kid, but I totally agree with your sentiments. I need a M2 GC right away, a BMW Individual M3 or a CPO M5. Them's the options.

I was quoting an old Clarkson line when he was comparing the M5 and Merc estate cars. He also talked about how much cheese they held.

I have always liked the look of a coupe over a sedan too...until now - the F80 is much better looking (and more aggressive IMO) than the F82...and there are certain angles from which the 235 is awkward as well. 4 doors might be just what the doctor ordered on this ///M as well.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by challer

Oh, wow. In that case, no deal. If I can't get an F80 in the color I want, I'm probably going to start shopping for CPO M5's.

why not just buy a bucket of paint instead of buying a car. clearly the driving experience means nothing to you as compared to the colour!

the M5 is massive....a totally different world than the M2 will be....or even the F80.

that being said I really wish there would be a 4 door or 5 door M2. I would definitely want add that to my stable....

[challer]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

See, even more reason to understand that the M2 will truly be a different car than the 235.

I haven't encountered anyone that disputes that the M2 will be different for the M235i. I've spoken with many people who are on the fence about trading in their 50k sticker M235i for a M2 for a bit more. The M235i is a new car. Unless people have one on lease or came in and dropped serious money toward the principal, the value proposition just isn't there.

I think I'm upside down by a few thousand on my car. Why roll it into a M2? I don't see the value. I could spend a couple grand on my car and have nearly the same car.

[challer]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

why not just buy a bucket of paint instead of buying a car. clearly the driving experience means nothing to you as compared to the colour!

This couldn't be further from the truth. Driving experience is really important to me. I don't think you'll find many BMW owners who will tell you otherwise. With that being said, I don't expect a drastically different driving experience between the M235i and the M2. 'Drastic' is subjective, though, isn't it? If I saw as big of a difference between the M235i and M2 as I do between the M235i and the M3, or the M3 and M5, I would absolutely buy one. I'm not buying a M2 for that exact reason. I don't expect to see an appreciable difference.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by challer

This couldn't be further from the truth. Driving experience is really important to me. I don't think you'll find many BMW owners who will tell you otherwise. With that being said, I don't expect a drastically different driving experience between the M235i and the M2. 'Drastic' is subjective, though, isn't it? If I saw as big of a difference between the M235i and M2 as I do between the M235i and the M3, or the M3 and M5, I would absolutely buy one. I'm not buying a M2 for that exact reason. I don't expect to see an appreciable difference.

trust me it will be a way different driving experience....why wouldn't it?

have you ever driven a 335 and an M3? have you ever driven a 135 and a 1M? a 535 and an M5? they feel totally different; no comparison.

HP numbers means nothing. Chassis, suspension, diff, steering, brakes, widened track, and aluminium components mean everything. you can't mod a standard model into an M car unless you spend $10k+ or more to do it.

It's so tiresome to hear people say a tune will make them equal. NO way.

[challer]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

trust me it will be a way different driving experience....why wouldn't it?

have you ever driven a 335 and an M3? have you ever driven a 135 and a 1M? a 535 and an M5? they feel totally different; no comparison.

HP numbers means nothing. Chassis, suspension, diff, steering, brakes, widened track, and aluminium components mean everything. you can't mod a standard model into an M car unless you spend $10k+ or more to do it.

It's so tiresome to hear people say a tune will make them equal. NO way.

Obviously, a tune won't make them totally equal. That doesn't disqualify my claim, which, if you read carefully, includes more than just a tune.

Let's use math. Math's easy:

Say the average M235i owner is 5k upside down on their loan and the M2 is 10k more. It's better for the M235i owner to put 10k in their M235i than end up rolling 5k into the M2, +10k.

[W///]

Originally Posted by challer

Obviously, a tune won't make them totally equal. That doesn't disqualify my claim, which, if you read carefully, includes more than just a tune.

Let's use math. Math's easy:

Say the average M235i owner is 5k upside down on their loan and the M2 is 10k more. It's better for the M235i owner to put 10k in their M235i than end up rolling 5k into the M2, +10k.

You could say that about a 335i and 550i. That argument has been said over and over again. At the end of the day, what do you really have?

[m981addicts]

My reason for preferring an M2 GC over a coupe is not convoluted/complex and based on a mathematical equation influenced by 25 variables; nor, linked in any way to BMW's model naming history. I have one four door sedan and three two door cars. I want another car with four doors.

[challer]

Originally Posted by W///

You could say that about a 335i and 550i. That argument has been said over and over again. At the end of the day, what do you really have?

You could, but you'd be wrong. Tunes for those don't get you to stock output of the M equivalent. Nor are the engines the same. This is a fallacy of [false] equivocation. I realize that's a strong statement. No one likes to be wrong. But in this case, your argument is demonstrably false.

[Reid]

Originally Posted by challer

Let's use math. Math's easy:

Say the average M235i owner is 5k upside down on their loan and the M2 is 10k more. It's better for the M235i owner to put 10k in their M235i than end up rolling 5k into the M2, +10k.

This is a personal problem.

The point of this forum is to discuss the upcoming M2, not discuss if purchasing the car is a wise decision for each individual.

If we purchased cars because they were sound financial decisions, we would all be driving used Toyotas.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by challer

I haven't encountered anyone that disputes that the M2 will be different for the M235i. I've spoken with many people who are on the fence about trading in their 50k sticker M235i for a M2 for a bit more. The M235i is a new car. Unless people have one on lease or came in and dropped serious money toward the principal, the value proposition just isn't there.

I think I'm upside down by a few thousand on my car. Why roll it into a M2? I don't see the value. I could spend a couple grand on my car and have nearly the same car.

But, it's not an M2. This pretty much started when BMW went to turbo engines. People said the same thing with the e92 335i vs e92 M3. Especially because the e92 M3 had 295 pound feet of torque and you can get a tune for e92 335i and get far more torque than that.

[W///]

Originally Posted by challer

You could, but you'd be wrong. Tunes for those don't get you to stock output of the M equivalent. Nor are the engines the same. This is a fallacy of [false] equivocation. I realize that's a strong statement. No one likes to be wrong. But in this case, your argument is demonstrably false.

Look, if HP and TQ is all you care about, then by all means, go with M235i and tune it. I'm done with this conversation, this is so stupid.

Ignore everything we told you about different EPS, brakes, direct mounted subframe, ability to fit bigger tires... none of that stuff matters.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by challer

You could, but you'd be wrong. Tunes for those don't get you to stock output of the M equivalent. Nor are the engines the same. This is a fallacy of [false] equivocation. I realize that's a strong statement. No one likes to be wrong. But in this case, your argument is demonstrably false.

The problem with anyone who attempts to take a non ///M car and do it themselves faces an impossible task. No matter the combination of aftermarket products, a normal person cannot replicate, duplicate, or surpass that which the M division puts out.

The reason? Because the M division is made up of many engineers with access to (comparatively speaking) much greater sums of money, parts, test mules, time on the Ring, etc. Someone who puts a Jb4, the biggest Brembos, a roll cage, a Borla exhaust, street slick tires, and race gas into a 2er, 3er, or whatever has a Frankenstein in comparison - which can surely be fun, but it's not the same as the M of that particular series...

The reason is that the sum of all those "upgrades" simply cannot approach the cohesive and planned result that is an M car...people may not like the current lineup of M cars or long for the old days (I have been in this camp myself), but you simply can't build an M car yourself. A fun car, yes. But not the same. M cars have a different focus and purpose...

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by challer

I haven't encountered anyone that disputes that the M2 will be different for the M235i. I've spoken with many people who are on the fence about trading in their 50k sticker M235i for a M2 for a bit more. The M235i is a new car. Unless people have one on lease or came in and dropped serious money toward the principal, the value proposition just isn't there.

I think I'm upside down by a few thousand on my car. Why roll it into a M2? I don't see the value. I could spend a couple grand on my car and have nearly the same car.

Well, at the 50K price point, what's a few grand to get what you want?

I mean, 2-3K on a 20K car is a big deal...but at this point, it's not as big of one for sure. I can tell you, for one, that either the M2/F80/Cayman/Boxster are in my future because the 235 is that underwhelming to me. And if I can get there for an additional 2-3K out of pocket? Where do I sign and when?