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      03-07-2014, 08:36 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantucket View Post
We have also not seen any M2 mules yet and the car has basically been confirmed.
Going on the history of the 1M.... an M2 could easily be 1-2 model year run, something that would not make sense for an F2x Gran Coupe. Also going by the 1M, the mule-to-production cycle could be very short indeed, as obviously a lot of development works has already been done via M235i. Add some ///M bits, and you're basically done. A F2x GC would need a different chassis and interior to test and develop, substantially different from both an F20, and F22/23. Basically, something that needs a longer development cycle than an M2. So, where is it?
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      03-07-2014, 08:47 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Going on the history of the 1M.... an M2 could easily be 1-2 model year run, something that would not make sense for an F2x Gran Coupe. Also going by the 1M, the mule-to-production cycle could be very short indeed, as obviously a lot of development works has already been done via M235i. Add some ///M bits, and you're basically done. A F2x GC would need a different chassis and interior to test and develop, substantially different from both an F20, and F22/23. Basically, something that needs a longer development cycle than an M2. So, where is it?
I have to agree with @SamS on this. They are way too late with the whole thing. Audi A3 sedan and Merc CLA are out for sale right now! Those are direct competitors to a rumored 2GC! They ought to had it released together with the 2 series coupe and stun the world with it. Now, they're just running behind. I find this very sad
And to be honest, and I've said this before, the A3 sedan is looking very attractive to me! If I were in the market for a new car, it would be a serious contender. I'm sure I'm not alone in this..
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      03-08-2014, 04:44 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Going on the history of the 1M.... an M2 could easily be 1-2 model year run, something that would not make sense for an F2x Gran Coupe. Also going by the 1M, the mule-to-production cycle could be very short indeed, as obviously a lot of development works has already been done via M235i. Add some ///M bits, and you're basically done. A F2x GC would need a different chassis and interior to test and develop, substantially different from both an F20, and F22/23. Basically, something that needs a longer development cycle than an M2. So, where is it?
No, this time they wanna sell more of the little M and we should see a M2 in 2016 or early 2017.
A 2 series GC definitely takes less time of development than a M2...
BMW was busy making the Active Tourer and other BS so they are "a bit late" with the GC. I think they just underestimated the need for a 2 series GC in their planing/concept stage.
I am just saying it isn't too late since the 2 series just launched and a GC is quickly made.
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      03-08-2014, 07:33 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by jackmcclane View Post
No, this time they wanna sell more of the little M and we should see a M2 in 2016 or early 2017.
A 2 series GC definitely takes less time of development than a M2...
BMW was busy making the Active Tourer and other BS so they are "a bit late" with the GC. I think they just underestimated the need for a 2 series GC in their planing/concept stage.
I am just saying it isn't too late since the 2 series just launched and a GC is quickly made.
I just don't see a 2er GC coming from BMW, at all. And the lack of test mules just confirms my suspicions.

The main problem is the size of a (potential) 2er GC. BMW will have to charge $45K USD for a car that is no bigger (smaller?) than an E46. That may have worked 10 years ago, but people in the US want a larger car than that.

I guess MB is trying to fill that hole via the CLA250. I'm sure BMWAG is watching the sales of that particular model very closely.
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      03-08-2014, 08:03 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Math View Post
I have to agree with @SamS on this. They are way too late with the whole thing. Audi A3 sedan and Merc CLA are out for sale right now! Those are direct competitors to a rumored 2GC! They ought to had it released together with the 2 series coupe and stun the world with it. Now, they're just running behind. I find this very sad
And to be honest, and I've said this before, the A3 sedan is looking very attractive to me! If I were in the market for a new car, it would be a serious contender. I'm sure I'm not alone in this..
I agree with SamS too. For those that have held executive management positions at large companies before, you know the drill here. When your product team is caught out disjointed from the market, you launch the counter-attack campaign of justification for your current product lineup while you deny your competitor is right. You never admit you screwed up, publicly, even though you have a crash-course in place, confidentially, to right the errors of either your team's judgement or the prior team.

BMW is caught at the moment without an important product in a very fast growing segment of the market. They were looking in the rear view mirror trying to predict the future. At all major market discontinuities, this type of situation is not uncommon. More than likely they will continue with the propaganda in order to try to ameliorate the current situation while they plan on the next gen 2-series sedan.

In the meantime, I guess my wife is defecting to an S3 or CLA 45AMG for her next daily driver. We're still considering the F80 M3, but she just isn't interested in F30-size (doesn't like driving the E39 M5 due to its size); however, not having a 6MT available in the USA in the S3 could be a problem for her. Sigh...
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      03-08-2014, 11:08 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
I just don't see a 2er GC coming from BMW, at all. And the lack of test mules just confirms my suspicions.

The main problem is the size of a (potential) 2er GC. BMW will have to charge $45K USD for a car that is no bigger (smaller?) than an E46. That may have worked 10 years ago, but people in the US want a larger car than that.

I guess MB is trying to fill that hole via the CLA250. I'm sure BMWAG is watching the sales of that particular model very closely.
The first 2 series test mule was spied in 11-29-2012 and the official reveal was 10-25-2013 so basically after one year the first spy shot was taken. A 2015 release for the 2 series gran coupe would be early enough (I would say first half of 2016 would be ok too), so there is the rest of 2014 left to let some test mules free.

I'll not comment your statement about price and need for this car.

Since the compact cars segment is growing worldwide, no one can tell me there's no need for a 2 series gran coupe, the competition is ahead in this "niche". BMW would be just ignorant and to focused on the 3 series margin if they don't see that.

There was lot of news about a 2 series gran coupe and M2 GC in the making. I guess not all of them were from Scott.
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      03-08-2014, 11:58 AM   #183
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This guy is a retard.
If people want an overly large sedan, they would buy American. In the past, that is why Americans bought BMWs.. due to their smaller, compact tossible package. Now BMW is trying to mimic America manufacturers and offer massively huge cars.

No 2-series sedan?, but they offer a 2-series minibus, active tourer? What a mixed message from BMW.



*2-series wagon
*2-series hatchback

*Would be the two leading sellers in North Merica for BMW, if they ever decided to stop being ignorant.
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      03-08-2014, 12:22 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmcclane View Post
The first 2 series test mule was spied in 11-29-2012 and the official reveal was 10-25-2013 so basically after one year the first spy shot was taken. A 2015 release for the 2 series gran coupe would be early enough (I would say first half of 2016 would be ok too), so there is the rest of 2014 left to let some test mules free.
The F2x-replacement will be hitting the streets (camo'd, of course) in 2015 or early 2016. Seems like odd timing to release a "new" 2GC based on the F20.
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      03-08-2014, 01:00 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by SamS View Post
The F2x-replacement will be hitting the streets (camo'd, of course) in 2015 or early 2016. Seems like odd timing to release a "new" 2GC based on the F20.
The competition is selling their small sedans now and the need for it is already here, so why should BMW wait until at least 2018/2019 when the next generation 1 series launches to fill the gap with a FWD based small sedan?

Like I said the compact segment is growing and the need for a small RWD based sedan from BMW is definitely bigger than for a FWD based one from them.

The only reason for no 2 series gran coupe would be to sell more 3 series what would be just stupid, because there IS need for a smaller RWD sedan and people waiting for this since the growing of the 3 series with every generation.

I'm awaiting news and spy shots, it's just ridiculous switching the status from "BMW 2 Series Gran Coupe fast tracked for 2015 release" / "BMW 2 Series Gran Coupe Rendered. Firm Plans for M2 Coupe and M2 Gran Coupe" to "Little need for 2 Series Gran Coupe says BMW Board Member Herbert Diess?" when you look at the competition and the real need for it, BMW is late again, I hope that's the only reason for this statement from BMW.
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      03-08-2014, 02:46 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by jackmcclane View Post
The competition is selling their small sedans now and the need for it is already here, so why should BMW wait until at least 2018/2019 when the next generation 1 series launches to fill the gap with a FWD based small sedan?

Like I said the compact segment is growing and the need for a small RWD based sedan from BMW is definitely bigger than for a FWD based one from them.
Speaking from a US-perspective, it just doesn't seem like there is a huge need for a RWD smaller sedan (than the F30). The lower price point seems to be being met rather well (here) via the 320i. I think there are very few US drivers that consider the F30 to be "too big". We really don't have a premium compact segment the US. If you're shopping for smaller 4-door car than the F30, it's because you're shopping in the <$25K range.
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      03-08-2014, 02:55 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by SamS View Post
If you're shopping for smaller 4-door car than the F30, it's because you're shopping in the <$25K range.
That *was* the case but not anymore. Audi and Mercedes are creating, and for now owning, the market for $45k+ sedans smaller than the F30. The F30 has grown too large for an increasing large segment of the market (talk to my wife for example). The new S3 (and coming RS3) and A45 AMG are anything but sub $25k cars.

My wife's latest idea today was for me to buy a C7 Z51 Vette for my fun car and she'll take over the E90 M3 as her daily if we sell her E90 330i. Hmmm.... Otherwise, I think we're looking at the Merc and Audi when they're available here.
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      03-08-2014, 03:05 PM   #188
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Following up on my prior post, I just built a CLA 45AMG like we'd order, and its MSRP is $60,694. Hence far from a sub $25k market. Amazingly Mercedes will allow you to buy the car without a sunroof (yeah!). I also just built an Audi A4 (S4 not on their site yet), and it came out to $46k, so I'm guessing the S3 will be mid-upper $50k range.
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      03-08-2014, 03:22 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
That *was* the case but not anymore. Audi and Mercedes are creating, and for now owning, the market for $45k+ sedans smaller than the F30.
I think it's far too early to call this sub-segment a success in the US, yet. Two brand new cars are not a segment
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      03-08-2014, 03:32 PM   #190
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Just because there are no spyshots does not mean a concept does not exist.
BMW have multiple testing centres where cars can test in privacy even without disguise away from a lens.

Planned concept cars in preview-production phase do not even show even on intranet spreadsheet until after a concept has been revealed.
Look at last years X4 Concept as an example. Palbay got the first spyshots around July-August.

Existing variants of current cars can hide under the bodies of that same member of the family and go unnoticed but still be able to be evaluated as that model.
Before final prototypes initiate public testing.

The proposal for Gran Coupe is based on the F20 so there is flexibility to use that extended platform. BMW are eyeing global reaction to the competition before striking. The car has already been designed.
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      03-08-2014, 05:57 PM   #191
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they could at least let us have the 5 door m135, it's so evil of them not to sell that car in US
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      03-10-2014, 01:22 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Just because there are no spyshots does not mean a concept does not exist.
BMW have multiple testing centres where cars can test in privacy even without disguise away from a lens.

Planned concept cars in preview-production phase do not even show even on intranet spreadsheet until after a concept has been revealed.
Look at last years X4 Concept as an example. Palbay got the first spyshots around July-August.

Existing variants of current cars can hide under the bodies of that same member of the family and go unnoticed but still be able to be evaluated as that model.
Before final prototypes initiate public testing.

The proposal for Gran Coupe is based on the F20 so there is flexibility to use that extended platform. BMW are eyeing global reaction to the competition before striking. The car has already been designed.
Dear lord let this be true

I was leaning towards a new S3 in 2015 but this changes the game.
But honestly I don't see why BMW would wait any longer
The success of the CLA can't be denied. Didn't mercedes edge out BMW in 2013 due to massive surge in the compact class CLA?
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      03-10-2014, 06:24 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmcclane View Post
The competition is selling their small sedans now and the need for it is already here, so why should BMW wait until at least 2018/2019 when the next generation 1 series launches to fill the gap with a FWD based small sedan?

Like I said the compact segment is growing and the need for a small RWD based sedan from BMW is definitely bigger than for a FWD based one from them.
Speaking from a US-perspective, it just doesn't seem like there is a huge need for a RWD smaller sedan (than the F30). The lower price point seems to be being met rather well (here) via the 320i. I think there are very few US drivers that consider the F30 to be "too big". We really don't have a premium compact segment the US. If you're shopping for smaller 4-door car than the F30, it's because you're shopping in the &lt;$25K range.
You are right but bmw wants to make a car that will fit everyone as you can see in their model lineup...even if that audience is a small percentage.

Look at the X4 for example...its the same (almost the same) size as the X3, and then theres the 3GT? Also 3 xdrive series wagon..the smaller X1 and maybe an X2
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      03-10-2014, 06:25 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
Just because there are no spyshots does not mean a concept does not exist.
BMW have multiple testing centres where cars can test in privacy even without disguise away from a lens.

Planned concept cars in preview-production phase do not even show even on intranet spreadsheet until after a concept has been revealed.
Look at last years X4 Concept as an example. Palbay got the first spyshots around July-August.

Existing variants of current cars can hide under the bodies of that same member of the family and go unnoticed but still be able to be evaluated as that model.
Before final prototypes initiate public testing.

The proposal for Gran Coupe is based on the F20 so there is flexibility to use that extended platform. BMW are eyeing global reaction to the competition before striking. The car has already been designed.
Worthless without pics lol
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      11-01-2014, 03:48 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by flyga3 View Post
While we are at it, why not an i3 and i8 Gran Coupe?? Please, let's stop this "Gran Coupe" lunacy as there is nothing "Gran" about a small car that is a 2-dr that "wants to be" a 4-dr. Then buy a 4 door.
I like the utility of the hatch in a GC. The smaller the car, the more useful the hatch is for carrying larger objects on infrequent occasions.
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      11-01-2014, 05:04 PM   #196
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All one has to do to figure out that BMW is trying to cater to too many niche markets is click on "Build Your Own" on their website. There are 15 models listed and then sub models and variations in each of those (i.e.228i and M235i). This is what broke the bank at GM. They finally wised up after going into bankruptcy and got rid of nonperforming and under performing lines like Saturn, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Hummer. You can't cater to every single individual buyer out there. Figure out who and what you are and build for those markets. BMW is a luxury sport car company that produces The Ultimate Driving Machine. Anything less than that (like a FWD family hauler of whatever description) dilutes the brand and conflicts with what they purport to be.
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      11-02-2014, 08:20 AM   #197
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4 dr f20 nice size

The m235i is the same dimensions as an e36m3 with an extra 100lbs of weight. I'm perfectly happy with the size of my e36. It seats 4 for local travel and two comfortably across country. It as also easy to toss you track tires in the back seat with the two back doors. The f30 series is comparable to what I think of as a 5 series.

Last edited by marcva; 11-02-2014 at 08:23 AM.. Reason: typo
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      11-02-2014, 10:22 AM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcva View Post
The m235i is the same dimensions as an e36m3 with an extra 100lbs of weight. I'm perfectly happy with the size of my e36. It seats 4 for local travel and two comfortably across country. It as also easy to toss you track tires in the back seat with the two back doors. The f30 series is comparable to what I think of as a 5 series.
Yeah, but it doesn't have the HP of a 235 nor all the improvements and other options that BMW now offers. And, wouldn't a hatch be nice?
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