[drivethemachine]

Just wanted to vent somewhere.... I took a long journey, a detour if you will.

About a year ago I traded in my beloved 228i for a P-car. Originally I was going to just upgrade it to an M4, but due to peer pressure I went all the way to Porsche. It's a head-turner, everywhere I go I'm treated like a celebrity.
The only downside is that I get zero love from Porsche, the brand. Nothing like the way BMW treats me. Call it brand loyalty if you will. I just feel warm around a BMW, and feel cold around a Porsche. (It must be the $400 oil change...lol)

Still haven't decided which way my Porsche journey is going to go, keeping it for now.
But, I also have an older E46 that I am ready to give up and trade for something new. This would be more for a DD role, comfort and ease of access is paramount. Here are the options I am considering, it would be interesting to hear what the community thinks.

1) Honda Civic hatchback sport. I love the looks of this car, and it feels so comfortable inside. A no-nonsense car, and at around 23k it's the cheapest to buy and the cheapest to maintain. The only downside is you can't really build it exactly the way you want it. Their trim/packaging options force you to make compromises.
2) Dodge Challenger RT. Because I always wanted one. Tons of power, heavy ride; heavy in a good way. Substantial. They smell nice. I love how decidedly underengineered these cars are. Easy to maintain, easy to work on, no complex electronics and gizmos that would cost a ton to fix. At around 40k it's priced in the middle of the pack.
3) M240i. I test drove one last week and I think I had forgotten just how good the F22 is. It was so good. In terms of power it was a night and day difference to my 228i. Everything was perfect - the seating position, the feel of the steering wheel, etc. I've driven an M2 before and I would say the 240 has about the same amount of power. Maybe suppressed by the traditional AT a little bit, but really really close. I love the looks of the M2, but I think the adaptive M suspension makes the M240i a more friendly DD. But at around 50k it's also the most expensive on the list, and could be a little redundant next to a 911.
Well, that's where my heads's at, not sure I'm making any sense

[BEM-S4]

I test drove a 440 GC a while back and GF has a 430 as a loaner. I've gotta say I really like that car a lot. If I were getting just one car I'd get the 240, but to go along with the 911 I'd look for a gently used 435 xDrive for some added utility.

[Rayscott]

I always wanted to own a Porsche 911 but could not afford it. I had 2 Honda S2000's and now have a 228ix M sport. These were and are the most fun cars I have ever driven. The 911 would have been nice but the fun factor in these cars trump the 911 and cost a lot less to operate. The M240i would be my next choice if I ever decide to upgrade.

[wdc330i]

Originally Posted by drivethemachine

Just wanted to vent somewhere.... I took a long journey, a detour if you will.

About a year ago I traded in my beloved 228i for a P-car. Originally I was going to just upgrade it to an M4, but due to peer pressure I went all the way to Porsche. It's a head-turner, everywhere I go I'm treated like a celebrity.
The only downside is that I get zero love from Porsche, the brand. Nothing like the way BMW treats me. Call it brand loyalty if you will. I just feel warm around a BMW, and feel cold around a Porsche. (It must be the $400 oil change...lol)

Still haven't decided which way my Porsche journey is going to go, keeping it for now.
But, I also have an older E46 that I am ready to give up and trade for something new. This would be more for a DD role, comfort and ease of access is paramount. Here are the options I am considering, it would be interesting to hear what the community thinks.

1) Honda Civic hatchback sport. I love the looks of this car, and it feels so comfortable inside. A no-nonsense car, and at around 23k it's the cheapest to buy and the cheapest to maintain. The only downside is you can't really build it exactly the way you want it. Their trim/packaging options force you to make compromises.
2) Dodge Challenger RT. Because I always wanted one. Tons of power, heavy ride; heavy in a good way. Substantial. They smell nice. I love how decidedly underengineered these cars are. Easy to maintain, easy to work on, no complex electronics and gizmos that would cost a ton to fix. At around 40k it's priced in the middle of the pack.
3) M240i. I test drove one last week and I think I had forgotten just how good the F22 is. It was so good. In terms of power it was a night and day difference to my 228i. Everything was perfect - the seating position, the feel of the steering wheel, etc. I've driven an M2 before and I would say the 240 has about the same amount of power. Maybe suppressed by the traditional AT a little bit, but really really close. I love the looks of the M2, but I think the adaptive M suspension makes the M240i a more friendly DD. But at around 50k it's also the most expensive on the list, and could be a little redundant next to a 911.
Well, that's where my heads's at, not sure I'm making any sense

A little hindsight, but I think if you had bought a 718s, you wouldn't be facing this problem. They are that good.

The M240 probably feels so comfortable to you because a) you are used to an E46 (the 2 is a natural successor to this platform) and b) you already had a 2.

If you're keeping the 911, I'd also go with something more practical and probably with AWD for winter applications (or RWD with snows.) A 440GC or similar would be great. Or a gently used X1 or X3. Better yet a 3 wagon.

I totally understand the drive to get a 911, given that they are legendary. But the Boxster/Cayman really is the perfect sports car (if you don't need the vestigial rear seats.)

[Maynard]

I sympathize - sort of in the same boat, but not willing to try a P-car for this very reason. As time has gone on, I've seen more and more about their willingness to piss on their customers, apparently secure in their halo reputation (e.g. exploding motors, defective control arms, bad wheel bearings, etc. - all with grudging and half-assed warranty coverage). It would be a stretch for me to afford one, and out of reach if I can't trust them to really cover it under warranty; now with the earlier cars appreciating so fast, I'm starting to give up the whole childhood dream.

That said, I'd note that we've had several Hondas, and I could say the exact same thing about their support - a bit cheaper, but they have no qualms about gouging you mercilessly and fighting hard to resist any warranty work (at least the 2 dealerships we dealt w/ in OH and NY). Cheaper to buy and run, but not to service (well, cheaper than a Porsche).

Of your options, the Challenger would round out the stable better, but the 240 is the better car, by far.

[robman23]

I was sitting next to the mechanic for a law enforcement agency about a month ago. I asked him how the Dodge product was holding up - said everything falls apart except for the drive train. Not to further complicate things, but my son has a Subaru WRX and that thing is great (but I hate the stupid hood opening).

[Toxophilite]

Not sure if the 2 series is a good choice if you are looking at a civic (the 4 door?). I ordered an m240i cuz it was practical enough for me and fast enough for me but I only have 1 car now. The civic may not be a bad choice tho or as someone noted, a 440GC or lightly used 435GC. I considered the wrx but idk.. something about it just rubs me the wrong way.

[BarryJI]

Is a standard oil change really $400 on a 911?

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Is a standard oil change really $400 on a 911?

From Edmunds.com

Total cost: $467.63 ($324 for labor; $27.66 for oil filter insert; $10.30 for O-ring; $2.32 for alum seal ring; $85.50 for 0W40 Mobil 1; $2.25 for washer fluid (really, Porsche?); $2.04 for engine oil disposal; $2.00 misc; $11.53 tax.)

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Is a standard oil change really $400 on a 911?

Everything gets expensive VERY quickly. Flat tire can end up being in the thousands by the time you buy and install a pair for example.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by wdc330i

A little hindsight, but I think if you had bought a 718s, you wouldn't be facing this problem. They are that good.

I totally understand the drive to get a 911, given that they are legendary. But the Boxster/Cayman really is the perfect sports car (if you don't need the vestigial rear seats.)

drivethemachine This is precisely what I have done, as many of you know. I took delivery of a 2018 718 Cayman in August, and I've already put 4,500 miles on it that includes a 2,500-mile road trip.

While I was shopping around, I test-drove a 718, a 981 Cayman S, and a 991.1 911 Carrera back-to-back-to-back. Honestly, the 911 felt large and somewhat antiquated compared to the Caymans. Yes, I can see how it's a more apt comparison to an M240 or a 4 Series, but IMHO, the feel of a 911 is teetering closer and closer to retro-cool rather than state-of-the-art -- at least that's the vibe I got from driving one.

The Cayman, OTOH, is absolutely phenomenal. Several things sealed it for me ... not the least of which has to do with the turbo flat-4 engine, which many decry as heresy and, aurally, by far the weakest part of the car. I have a different view:
- It sounds more like a vintage air-cooled 911 flat-6 than any current or recent P-car flat-6
- Because of the torque curve, it behaves like most BMW engines, only better
- During my road trip, I stopped at Barber Motorsport Park, which happened to be holding a Porsche Driving School session while I was there. The Caymans (2.4L S models) were the best sounding cars on the track. By FAR.

I still have my 2 Series (228i M Sport); it's for sale privately, and I drive it every week to keep it operational. When I drive it, well ... it feels like what a 3 Series feels compared to the 2 Series, if that makes any sense.

There are only two cars I'd own over the 718 now, and they both cost roughly double what my 718 cost. It's that good.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

From Edmunds.com

Total cost: $467.63 ($324 for labor; $27.66 for oil filter insert; $10.30 for O-ring; $2.32 for alum seal ring; $85.50 for 0W40 Mobil 1; $2.25 for washer fluid (really, Porsche?); $2.04 for engine oil disposal; $2.00 misc; $11.53 tax.)

This is why it pays to do it yourself with something so simple. For example, on the 991.2, which has one of the more buried Porsche motors in terms of equipment on top of it, you can still do the change yourself with basic tools in about 1 hour or less if it's your first time.

You simply remove some trim, cooling fans, and the intake snorkels. Once you do that, the filter housing is exposed. The drain plug is one the a$$ end of the car and you simply need to drive up on 3" ramps to comfortably access the drain plug. Oil, filter, and pan plug will run you about $100-120.

If this type of work is not in line with your pay grade, then you should expect to pay dearly for excessive labor at the dealership or indie shop.

I've saved myself ten of thousands doing much of the maintenance and minor work on my own cars over the last 20 years or so. I've saved my friends a mountain of money too.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/9892...th-photos.html

[pz619]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

drivethemachine This is precisely what I have done, as many of you know. I took delivery of a 2018 718 Cayman in August, and I've already put 4,500 miles on it that includes a 2,500-mile road trip.

While I was shopping around, I test-drove a 718, a 981 Cayman S, and a 991.1 911 Carrera back-to-back-to-back. Honestly, the 911 felt large and somewhat antiquated compared to the Caymans. Yes, I can see how it's a more apt comparison to an M240 or a 4 Series, but IMHO, the feel of a 911 is teetering closer and closer to retro-cool rather than state-of-the-art -- at least that's the vibe I got from driving one.

The Cayman, OTOH, is absolutely phenomenal. Several things sealed it for me ... not the least of which has to do with the turbo flat-4 engine, which many decry as heresy and, aurally, by far the weakest part of the car. I have a different view:
- It sounds more like a vintage air-cooled 911 flat-6 than any current or recent P-car flat-6
- Because of the torque curve, it behaves like most BMW engines, only better
- During my road trip, I stopped at Barber Motorsport Park, which happened to be holding a Porsche Driving School session while I was there. The Caymans (2.4L S models) were the best sounding cars on the track. By FAR.

I still have my 2 Series (228i M Sport); it's for sale privately, and I drive it every week to keep it operational. When I drive it, well ... it feels like what a 3 Series feels compared to the 2 Series, if that makes any sense.

There are only two cars I'd own over the 718 now, and they both cost roughly double what my 718 cost. It's that good.

You aren't making things easy for me. I'm basically between the 718 and the M2 once my lease is up in 10 months. Decisions, decisions.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by pz619

You aren't making things easy for me. I'm basically between the 718 and the M2 once my lease is up in 10 months. Decisions, decisions.

The only advice I can give is to drive both -- back-to-back if at all possible. It will really crystallize the differences in how one car 'feels' compared to another, and eliminate any variables from one day to another. I was lucky in that I had a dealer that had all three P-cars I was considering on its lot at the same time.

Now that the M2 isn't quite the unobtanium it used to be, I figure you'll be able to find one to drive relatively easily. When you do, bolt to the nearest P-car dealer and take a 718 for a spin.

[USA-RET]

I was on the fence when I traded my 2015 C7 Corvette.

Audi TTS, Porsche Cayman, or the M2/M240i.

I'm driving the M240i.

Audi TTS was unimpressive w/ the throttle response, to get any feel when "blipping" the gas pedal, I had to manually downshift to get the rev's up.

Porsche Cayman was nice, but pretty impractical if wanting to shop or carry anything in the car. Initial cost was high because everything is ala carte. Maintenance costs were ridiculous. $350 + for and oil change. Give me a break. Yeah was a cool car and I wanted one, but common sense won out.

M240i checked all the right boxes. Added a Dinan Stage 1 and I'll bet I could keep up with my 2015 C7 in a 0-60 or 1/4 mile race.

If I had a 911 and was adding a car, the 440i GC would be a car I would look at. Sleek, fast and has the utility of a hatchback. 0-60 in 4.8 is darn quick (and if you want more, throw a Dinan elite tune on and you'll likely shave .5 off that time).

My next BMW may be a 4 series and it's a toss up between a 440i coupe or the GC. I have a Mini Cooper which take car of all our hauling needs (actually got a 55" LED TV in it). If I stay w/ a Cooper will get the 440i coupe, if I scale down to one car GC for sure.

[Fugly M3]

I went from a 135i to a 335i to a 987.2 Cayman. The car was all around far more capable than its predecessors...but, like OP says, it is a cold car to drive. You almost have to play/fight with the BMWs. Not that they aren't capable, but you really feel like you're driving the cars. The Porsche, at least off the track, does every thing in such a matter-of-fact, cold fashion. Turn in here, done. Unload/reload suspension, done. Stop now, done. The little bimmers are totally capable cars, but you feel like you're driving them. The Porsche is fun but it almost feels like it's just an exercise in entering commands and watching the car execute them. I never go to take it to a track so I imagine that's a little different. I did the new Porsche experience center in Carson, CA and got to spend some time in a 718CS on the autocross and 911 on the track and they were certainly fun, but had some of that same coldness to them. Hard to explain, and just not the same.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

I went from a 135i to a 335i to a 987.2 Cayman. The car was all around far more capable than its predecessors...but, like OP says, it is a cold car to drive. You almost have to play/fight with the BMWs. Not that they aren't capable, but you really feel like you're driving the cars. The Porsche, at least off the track, does every thing in such a matter-of-fact, cold fashion. Turn in here, done. Unload/reload suspension, done. Stop now, done. The little bimmers are totally capable cars, but you feel like you're driving them. The Porsche is fun but it almost feels like it's just an exercise in entering commands and watching the car execute them. I never go to take it to a track so I imagine that's a little different. I did the new Porsche experience center in Carson, CA and got to spend some time in a 718CS on the autocross and 911 on the track and they were certainly fun, but had some of that same coldness to them. Hard to explain, and just not the same.

I completely disagree with this, but YMMV. If I may proffer this: the P-cars may feel 'cold' to some partially because their limits are so much higher, and they tend not to become a handful until you're right at those limits.

I mentioned earlier that I've already taken my 718 on a 2,500-mile road trip. That trip was to PEC Atlanta to do just what you did: have some track time in a 718, as well as run it through a skidpad/skidplate/slalom, etc. to better understand how it behaves at its limits and beyond. The car is an absolute scalpel on the track; the toughest thing I encountered was fine-tuning the car's line on a parabolic curve (in 1.5 hours I'd added more than 8 MPH in speed on that curve).

Now I'm not going to sit here and say that I've driven a ton of cars on a track. I haven't. I have, however, driven a ton of cars (and motorcycles, natch) on public roads, and some for very long distances -- including the 718. That car has more soul on a back road than anything I've driven or ridden an appreciable distance, with two diametrically opposed exceptions:
- 2006 Ferrari F430
- 2006 Mini Cooper

Again, YMMV. But to say that a Porsche doesn't have soul is like saying Sophia Loren didn't have sex appeal.

[Luftwaffe1O1]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

I was on the fence when I traded my 2015 C7 Corvette.

Audi TTS, Porsche Cayman, or the M2/M240i.

I'm driving the M240i.

Audi TTS was unimpressive w/ the throttle response, to get any feel when "blipping" the gas pedal, I had to manually downshift to get the rev's up.

Porsche Cayman was nice, but pretty impractical if wanting to shop or carry anything in the car. Initial cost was high because everything is ala carte. Maintenance costs were ridiculous. $350 + for and oil change. Give me a break. Yeah was a cool car and I wanted one, but common sense won out.

M240i checked all the right boxes. Added a Dinan Stage 1 and I'll bet I could keep up with my 2015 C7 in a 0-60 or 1/4 mile race.

If I had a 911 and was adding a car, the 440i GC would be a car I would look at. Sleek, fast and has the utility of a hatchback. 0-60 in 4.8 is darn quick (and if you want more, throw a Dinan elite tune on and you'll likely shave .5 off that time).

My next BMW may be a 4 series and it's a toss up between a 440i coupe or the GC. I have a Mini Cooper which take car of all our hauling needs (actually got a 55" LED TV in it). If I stay w/ a Cooper will get the 440i coupe, if I scale down to one car GC for sure.

My colleague has a TTS, and I gotta say, I am thoroughly unimpressed by this car. On paper it looks pretty good, but man, I drove it a couple of times and its just nothing to write home about.

You really have to launch it to get it moving, but on top of that some of the minor things here and there that have plagued his car are pretty annoying.

There are plastic seat covers that came loose on his car, and the dealer gave him the car back while they waited for new parts, with the covers off, so it was the bare seat internals exposed. This lasted for a few months until they got the parts in.

The hatch rattles like crazy etc. But, the interior is really nice and minimalist. They definitely do use higher quality materials in Audi.

However, every time we have kind of raced off the line, he always bogs it (not the greatest driver), but just goes to show you, that you really need to be aggressive to get the performance out of it.

But as to the OP, give the 718 a drive, these are just a magical combination. The 911 is the big boy in the house there, but the boxsters and caymans are the extremely capable teenager that is a lot cheaper to own overall. (this is super relative in the Porsche world keep in mind, cheaper to own compared to other stuff).

But I really fell in love with the boxster/cayman recently.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by caycep

I think it's more like it doesn't have the older style soul, but each car has its own personality/soul in a way. It's different from recent flat six porsches.

Not going to argue with you there. But by the definition of E46M54325Ci , air-cooled 911s would occasionally have a ton of soul, especially when they oversteered in a decreasing-radius curve ...

Originally Posted by caycep

Fans of the Subaru flat 4 (and it seems they are as die-hard or more so than Porsche or BMW fans) will argue the WRx STi has plenty of soul.

Yes, they are: I've owned an '09 WRX and once had regular access to a '07 STi. Because of that, I have a HUGE problem with those who compare the 718's engine sound to a Subaru's because there really isn't much of a comparison above idle.

Originally Posted by caycep

My girlfriend's Prius has a lot of soul, in that she's had it for over a decade and there is so much of her that is in the car.

I'm, uh, not gonna touch that with a 10-foot pole, LOL ...

Originally Posted by caycep

Also, from looking at the specs (and never having driven one...correct me if I'm wrong) it also seems the 718 is the one model where the base model is already "good enough" for most people in this forum, power and suspension-wise, vs. before where you'd have to add a lot of options or get bigger engines to make it "good enough". So that may make it more accessible (at least relatively speaking)

Well, that's not totally the case. PASM, Porsche's active suspension, is an option and totally transforms the car; it's better than anything I've ever experienced in a BMW by a mile. Same with Sport Chrono to a lesser extent because of the extra driving mode and active transmission mounts. Engine-wise, maybe -- but the real distinction is the mid-engine layout and weight. The 718 is like a hand-stitched silk-and-calfskin ballet slipper combined with a next-level $300 basketball shoe, where the 2 Series is like a plain designer flat combined with a garden-variety $125 tennis shoe.

[pz619]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

The only advice I can give is to drive both -- back-to-back if at all possible. It will really crystallize the differences in how one car 'feels' compared to another, and eliminate any variables from one day to another. I was lucky in that I had a dealer that had all three P-cars I was considering on its lot at the same time.

Now that the M2 isn't quite the unobtanium it used to be, I figure you'll be able to find one to drive relatively easily. When you do, bolt to the nearest P-car dealer and take a 718 for a spin.

Thanks! I appreciate the insight and the plan is to do exactly what you described. I did cheat though and drove a 718 boxster. It was an amazing car but I think I'm going to pass on the roadster for now just as I had a s2k previously. The decision might get a little trickier though as it sounds like the M2 CS could possibly replace the regular M2 entirely, or at least that is the latest rumor. Something tells me that will be closer in price to the m3 versus the current m2.

[Luftwaffe1O1]

Originally Posted by pz619

Thanks! I appreciate the insight and the plan is to do exactly what you described. I did cheat though and drove a 718 boxster. It was an amazing car but I think I'm going to pass on the roadster for now just as I had a s2k previously. The decision might get a little trickier though as it sounds like the M2 CS could possibly replace the regular M2 entirely, or at least that is the latest rumor. Something tells me that will be closer in price to the m3 versus the current m2.

There is always the Cayman... its like a boxster... but with a hard top, and more awesomeness?

[pz619]

Originally Posted by Luftwaffe1O1

There is always the Cayman... its like a boxster... but with a hard top, and more awesomeness?

Sorry I should have been more clear. I keep forgetting the 718 includes multiple models. I ended driving the boxster since my friend was looking at Audi and the Porsche dealership was next door. Cayman is the one I'm looking for! Love the looks.