[dradernh]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Post the chart again

My fingers are too tired from posting that chart!

[grocerylist]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I don't understand why so many go into Comfort or ECO to get the softer suspension and lighter steering. Go into Settings -> Modes -> Sport Mode and then select "Drivetrain". With that you get the softer suspension and lighter steering with the much better Sport throttle response plus exhaust burbles.

I like a linear throttle. I don't want to press the throttle down 25% and get like 50-75% throttle or however the throttle mapping works. On the track I'd imagine this could be particularly dangerous if your trying to drive 9+/10.

[atek]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Dynamic Traction Control is OFF unless you briefly press the DSC button or you're in Sport+ Mode. So do you guys turn it ON whenever you're not in Sport+ Mode - or are you in Sport+ Mode all of the time?

dynamic is off, but TC is still active. I would know from experience trying to slide the car in sport +, the nannies kick in, i can see the traction light flash and feel the car understeer/push as the throttle gets cut due to TC activating.

Unless you long hold for DSC Off, its on. The limit changes, but its on.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by grocerylist

I like a linear throttle. I don't want to press the throttle down 25% and get like 50-75% throttle or however the throttle mapping works. On the track I'd imagine this could be particularly dangerous if your trying to drive 9+/10.

Are you driving an auto or 6MT? The auto I test drove when looking at the car had a fairly responsive throttle in Comfort mode. When I got my 6MT, the Comfort throttle feels VERY dead in the first 10-15% of travel. Plus, when on the highway, it requires either a downshift or healthy shove of the pedal to get any meaningful amount of acceleration while at cruise.

With the Sport throttle, it increases both throttle sensitivity and slams the wastegate shut to make for much more meaningful in-gear acceleration. That's what I like the most about the Sport throttle when driving a 6MT.

With an auto, you've got WAY deeper gearing and quick shifting transmission logic so running around in Comfort doesn't feel remotely as laggy and neutered.

On the track, I would be in DSC Off because the Sport throttle could be a bit too much. However, when in Sport+, the stability control does do an excellent job of keeping the rear end pretty tame. The LSD in my car doesn't hurt ether.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by atek

dynamic is off, but TC is still active. I would know from experience trying to slide the car in sport +, the nannies kick in, i can see the traction light flash and feel the car understeer/push as the throttle gets cut due to TC activating.

Unless you long hold for DSC Off, its on. The limit changes, but its on.

Is this chart consistent with your experiences?

[atek]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Is this chart consistent with your experiences?

I've seen this chart many times, and have studied it.

There are some similarities but also some differences. Maybe there's a change between generations of software, which wouldn't be uncommon from BMW or any other OE. As things progress software tends to change..

The post marks M135 from '10-'13. Then someone added M240i on top, with a note that the M2 has one similar (does that mean it differs slightly?). Who's to say the 2014-2016 m235i is the same-is my point. There may indeed be some slight differences between generations.

That a side, it does show that in Sport+, traction or dsc is still active. (which is what I originally pointed to anyway)

[nazali]

awesome txs makes sense !

Originally Posted by atek

There are certain instances other than purposefully getting sideways where you want traction control off - but most drivers don't have the skill to utilize it and are better off leaving it on.

Like you said, if you're not thrashing super hard or sliding corners, no real reason for you to turn it off.

What it does do, is cut throttle and apply brakes to limit wheel spin. That can be very bad for hard / track driving where you need complete control of the car at all times.

[SoftShoe]

Do our cars apply differential braking as a matter of course in certain enthusiastic driving scenarios with certain driving modes?

I’m asking because I feel some odd behavior in tight turns during spirited driving at relatively low (sub 60mph) speeds. For example, the car may feel like it grabs on the inside and turns in more as it nears mid corner.

I’d like to know what’s causing that sensation - differential brakes? Artificially (computer) Increased steering angle for amount of steering wheel deflection? German chassis black magic?

And if it is artificial (computer driven) what modes turn it off?

[atek]

Originally Posted by SoftShoe

Do our cars apply differential braking as a matter of course in certain enthusiastic driving scenarios with certain driving modes?

I’m asking because I feel some odd behavior in tight turns during spirited driving at relatively low (sub 60mph) speeds. For example, the car may feel like it grabs on the inside and turns in more as it nears mid corner.

I’d like to know what’s causing that sensation - differential brakes? Artificially (computer) Increased steering angle for amount of steering wheel deflection? German chassis black magic?

And if it is artificial (computer driven) what modes turn it off?

I believe this is a type of corning assist/dynamic traction intervention, and can probably be attributed to the driving mode or elsd (do you have the ///mlsd?)

[SoftShoe]

Originally Posted by atek

I believe this is a type of corning assist/dynamic traction intervention, and can probably be attributed to the driving mode or elsd (do you have the ///mlsd?)

MLSD, yes.

So will “DSC off” (long push of traction button) turn that off?
For some reason I’d still like to know how the car naturally behaves -if that’s possible.

[freakystyly]

Don't quote me on this but I think the mechanical LSD (if present) will interfere before the E-LSD does... when in DSC off mode. These cars don't really have an "Everything off mode".

And by E-LSD... I mean wheel speed sensors and brakes because these aren't M2s with real E-LSDs.

[atek]

Originally Posted by SoftShoe

MLSD, yes.

So will “DSC off” (long push of traction button) turn that off?
For some reason I’d still like to know how the car naturally behaves -if that’s possible.

Unless you've coded it out, the "elsd" function will still be active, even with the mlsd.

DSC off (long press of traction) is the only true nanny free method

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Don't quote me on this but I think the mechanical LSD (if present) will interfere before the E-LSD does... when in DSC off mode. These cars don't really have an "Everything off mode".

And by E-LSD... I mean wheel speed sensors and brakes because these aren't M2s with real E-LSDs.

DSC off (long press of traction) is the only true nanny free method, it allows for full donuts and drifts. (Ask me how I know )

[freakystyly]

Originally Posted by atek

DSC off (long press of traction) is the only true nanny free method, it allows for full donuts and drifts. (Ask me how I know )

You're probably right, I've just noticed the power band leveling off at 5k and thought the brakes were doing something.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by SoftShoe

Do our cars apply differential braking as a matter of course in certain enthusiastic driving scenarios with certain driving modes?

I’m asking because I feel some odd behavior in tight turns during spirited driving at relatively low (sub 60mph) speeds. For example, the car may feel like it grabs on the inside and turns in more as it nears mid corner.

I’d like to know what’s causing that sensation - differential brakes? Artificially (computer) Increased steering angle for amount of steering wheel deflection? German chassis black magic?

And if it is artificial (computer driven) what modes turn it off?

BMW calls it Dynamic Stability Control (DSC). Generically, it's called Electronic Stability Control (ESC), and it's been required on passenger vehicles sold in the US since the 2012 model year. Leading manufacturers implemented it long before 2012. It was probably the greatest safety advance since seat belts. Intro here: https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/elect...ility-control/

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Don't quote me on this but I think the mechanical LSD (if present) will interfere before the E-LSD does... when in DSC off mode. These cars don't really have an "Everything off mode".

And by E-LSD... I mean wheel speed sensors and brakes because these aren't M2s with real E-LSDs.

If you want to get the most out of the rear end, and you've got a real LSD, you want to code e-LSD out. I don't go to the track anymore, so even though I've got a Wavetrac LSD and e-LSD got coded back on when the dealer updated my car's software, it doesn't make any meaningful difference to me on the street or back roads.

[atek]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

You're probably right, I've just noticed the power band leveling off at 5k and thought the brakes were doing something.

Powerband leveling at 5k? Are you all stock? Mine pulls hard to 7k redline.

[SoftShoe]

Originally Posted by dradernh

BMW calls it Dynamic Stability Control (DSC). Generically, it's called Electronic Stability Control (ESC), and it's been required on passenger vehicles sold in the US since the 2012 model year. Leading manufacturers implemented it long before 2012. It was probably the greatest safety advance since seat belts. Intro here: https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/elect...ility-control/
.

So is ESC — in this instance — a proactive intervention to increase maneuverability or a reactive one to save my @ss?

Because the car gave me no indication whatsoever that what I was doing was risky enough that it needed to save me. To the contrary, it felt like “oh, you want to do that? Here, let me help you.”

If it was just helping, I’m deeply conflicted about that.
If it was saving me, I’d like some indication (feedback) from the car that I’m nearing a limit.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by SoftShoe

So is ESC — in this instance — a proactive intervention to increase maneuverability or a reactive one to save my @ss?

Because the car gave me no indication whatsoever that what I was doing was risky enough that it needed to save me. To the contrary, it felt like “oh, you want to do that? Here, let me help you.”

If it was just helping, I’m deeply conflicted about that.
If it was saving me, I’d like some indication (feedback) from the car that I’m nearing a limit.

1) The latter, most definitely; ask me how I know!

2) That's called "torque"; as I suggested, our cars have a decided surfeit of it for daily driving. The only place I've found it particularly useful and handy is on a race track.

3) You'll need to learn your car's limits by driving it near those limits, and they're very high, I believe. DSC isn't anything dramatic, so perhaps you can practice moving the car around under you to the point that it kicks-in, releases, kicks back in again? That's why I suggested the Stonestown parking lot late at night when you've got a bunch of space to work with; alternatively, the roads going up Mt. Tam would be more fun, but I'd recommend doing that during daylight hours when traffic is light. I'm too busy looking at the road to spend time looking at the dash, but maybe it flashes a light or something shortly before DSC kicks-in, I don't know?

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by SoftShoe

So is ESC — in this instance — a proactive intervention to increase maneuverability or a reactive one to save my @ss?

Because the car gave me no indication whatsoever that what I was doing was risky enough that it needed to save me. To the contrary, it felt like “oh, you want to do that? Here, let me help you.”

If it was just helping, I’m deeply conflicted about that.
If it was saving me, I’d like some indication (feedback) from the car that I’m nearing a limit.

Before DSC intervenes (the dash light will flash ) CBC (Corner Braking Control) will apply differential braking force that will reduce understeer and keep the car on a turn radius that is close to that determined by the steering angle. This is due to slightly higher braking force on the inside front wheel compared with the outside one.

[atek]

Originally Posted by SoftShoe

So is ESC — in this instance — a proactive intervention to increase maneuverability or a reactive one to save my @ss?

Because the car gave me no indication whatsoever that what I was doing was risky enough that it needed to save me. To the contrary, it felt like “oh, you want to do that? Here, let me help you.”

If it was just helping, I’m deeply conflicted about that.
If it was saving me, I’d like some indication (feedback) from the car that I’m nearing a limit.

Like they said above, its more "intervening" or "saving" you than anything else. Which is why it can be a nuisance when you're capable of going beyond its predetermined limits. Though, its always recommended to learn those pre-determined limits first. As like drader mentioned, they are quite high for a street car.

Definitely find some open lots or empty back/industrial roads (what ever works for your area) and let her rip with the aids on, then turn them off briefly and see the difference.

[JMcLellan]

Originally Posted by atek

Like they said above, its more "intervening" or "saving" you than anything else. Which is why it can be a nuisance when you're capable of going beyond its predetermined limits. Though, its always recommended to learn those pre-determined limits first. As like drader mentioned, they are quite high for a street car.

Definitely find some open lots or empty back/industrial roads (what ever works for your area) and let her rip with the aids on, then turn them off briefly and see the difference.

But turning the nannies off in the F22 we are only getting comfort mode, right? Even if in sport+ mode and then you hold down the DSC button it turns off nannies and goes into comfort mode? There are just too many things and driving modes.....

[atek]

Originally Posted by JMcLellan

But turning the nannies off in the F22 we are only getting comfort mode, right? Even if in sport+ mode and then you hold down the DSC button it turns off nannies and goes into comfort mode? There are just too many things and driving modes.....

Not exactly, DSC off gives Sport everything but comfort throttle.

Which, I also find weird myself. Which is why I tend to drive in Sport+ more. (the "twitchy" throttle feels more like it should, and makes the zf8spd feel more like a MT)

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by JMcLellan

But turning the nannies off in the F22 we are only getting comfort mode, right? Even if in sport+ mode and then you hold down the DSC button it turns off nannies and goes into comfort mode? There are just too many things and driving modes.....

Dynamic Stability Control OFF is a long way from Comfort Mode. I would have wrecked on the highway one morning if I'd been in DSC OFF Mode. It was an interesting set of circumstances, but I was pretty happy DSC was ON and did its job.

Re: "There are just too many things and driving modes.", I couldn't agree more. That aspect of the car is overdone. I think the ability to turn DSC and DTC on/off have genuinely practical uses. Modes affecting throttle response, adaptive dampers, power steering effort, and engine mapping had to have come originally out of the marketing department.

A set of all-purpose sports dampers is what the car should have come with; throttle/steering/engine mapping are best left to the aftermarket. That stuff, coming from BMW, is just frou-frou. I understand not everyone feels that way about these features; it's just my opinion. It's also why I knew before I bought the car that I'd soon afterwards have coilovers and a quality tune installed on it.