[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I don't disagree with anything you said, but wouldn't the GT3 qualify in most eyes as significantly higher performance than the much quicker Turbo? I realize Porsche is much further along the road of true track cars than BMW, but they've certainly created the market for a slower car having more prestige.

When I posted that, I thought: he's going to bring up the GT3

It's the one case where I would grant an exception. However, I still don't think it's a great example. When you get in to the top tier Porsche line-up, the tiers aren't as much about raw performance as they are suitability for the task. The GT3 is a track car that you can drive on the street. I wouldn't count the differences as a compromise.

[Red Bread]

See, that's my hopelessly out of touch hope, that some clown at BMW will provide a truly trackable car in the M2, not just a different slice of the M4 that's still all gussied up with Nappa leather, a sunroof and laser cruise control. I know it won't happen, and I know no one at BMW has the stones of the guys at Porsche, but I can still hope.

Again, for all the coupe wanting hp jockeys, it really feels like the pool is full already with the M235i, M435i and M4, please let the M2 be an odd duck that isn't just more of the same. Since that won't happen, I'll sit around and continue to hope someone at Alfa figures out how to fit a third pedal in the 4C and not price it above the Cayman S.

[Ramos]

I would agree that the GT3's position in the 911 lineup is an exception. The GT3 is a track car that can be driven on the street, it's not that much slower that the turbo in a straight line. Also buyers of those 2 911 models do not cross shop, they have very different needs. I believe that according to Porsche 80% of GT3 buyers track their cars. I am sure the number is much lower for Turbo owners who just want the fastest road going 911 and do not track as much.

As for the M2 and the M235, those two models will be crossed shopped a lot more and the M2 is not meant to be a pure track car that can be driven on the street, rather its meant as a street car that would also be capable on the track. Just a better more capable version on the M235.

[bradleyland]

The cross-shopping thing is a great point. I'm in the camp with Red Bread in that I'd *love* to see a street-drivable track machine come out of the M2 production design (vis a vis, E30 M3). Unfortunately, I'm also in the camp with him in that it is incredibly unlikely

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

The cross-shopping thing is a great point. I'm in the camp with Red Bread in that I'd *love* to see a street-drivable track machine come out of the M2 production design (vis a vis, E30 M3). Unfortunately, I'm also in the camp with him in that it is incredibly unlikely

For me personally, while I agree with you both that a street drivable track machine would be sweet, it would not fulfill my needs.

I currently have a 95 E36 M3 for autocross and Track use and a VW GTI for daily driving. I will be selling both cars to be able to afford the M2.
For that reason and since it will be my only car, I need it to be able to serve as a civilized daily commuter.

People who can afford GT3's usually have other cars to daily drive. The entry level M car will serve as the only vehicle for most of its buyers and for that reason it cannot be as radical as what we would want for those days when you are not on a race track and sitting in traffic on the freeway !

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

See, that's my hopelessly out of touch hope, that some clown at BMW will provide a truly trackable car in the M2, not just a different slice of the M4 that's still all gussied up with Nappa leather, a sunroof and laser cruise control. I know it won't happen, and I know no one at BMW has the stones of the guys at Porsche, but I can still hope.

Again, for all the coupe wanting hp jockeys, it really feels like the pool is full already with the M235i, M435i and M4, please let the M2 be an odd duck that isn't just more of the same. Since that won't happen, I'll sit around and continue to hope someone at Alfa figures out how to fit a third pedal in the 4C and not price it above the Cayman S.

That's what I am expecting too, with the Alfa 4C sometime down the road, hope never dies! Oh, I want that 300 hp 1.8 liter engine they are developing fitted too, fingers crossed for a GTA version a la CSL

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

See, that's my hopelessly out of touch hope, that some clown at BMW will provide a truly trackable car in the M2, not just a different slice of the M4 that's still all gussied up with Nappa leather, a sunroof and laser cruise control. I know it won't happen, and I know no one at BMW has the stones of the guys at Porsche, but I can still hope.

Again, for all the coupe wanting hp jockeys, it really feels like the pool is full already with the M235i, M435i and M4, please let the M2 be an odd duck that isn't just more of the same. Since that won't happen, I'll sit around and continue to hope someone at Alfa figures out how to fit a third pedal in the 4C and not price it above the Cayman S.

Agreed. To me BMW's biggest competitor is not Audi, Mercedes, or Cadillac. It is its own previous cars. I know as a trend ///M cars have been getting softer and more power oriented over the years. But its just getting to that point where enough is enough. I don't want any of the crap BMW is putting out these days. I driven them, they are nice, but nice in a Mercedes way. Not in the way a BMW should be. Honestly, unless BMW pulls a complete and undeniable 180 with this car, I am done with BMW. Or at least new ones, I will gladly drive any BMW introduced up to the E60. Maybe when robot Reithofer retires things will change. Heres hoping!

[poosamjam]

Hold on a second. I seem to be falling back on the news here. I see everyone talking about the M435i and M2. Have any of these cars been announced? I don't see the point of any of these when there is the 435i and M235i.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by poosamjam

Hold on a second. I seem to be falling back on the news here. I see everyone talking about the M435i and M2. Have any of these cars been announced? I don't see the point of any of these when there is the 435i and M235i.

Neither car has been announced, but both are widely expected to make it to market.

The M2 in particular is a sure thing. It will offer the same features above and beyond what an M235i offers that the 1M offered in addition to the 135i (or the newcomer 135is). That is, more power, M chassis components and M body panels with other exterior enhancements. This time around we can expect the additional power to come from an M-specific engine.

The M435i name is a placeholder for now. The expectation is that there will be an M Performance model between the 435i and M4 to replace the existing 335is. This model will probably get a high output version of the next generation BMW I6.

[santiage]

Originally Posted by Mdecisive

i doubt they're going to give the M2 a 4Cyl engine when the m235i already has a monster n55 6Cyl. i think a revised n55 is the way to go. <3

+1

[Majdnoon]

Since the F8x M3 and M4 will also be getting 6cyl engines, instead of making the M2 a 4 cylinder, why not change the displacement in order to differentiate the 2 cars? IE, a 3.3L for the M3/4, and perhaps a 3.0 or 2.8 for the M2. Or perhaps the F8x should get a 3.5 (referencing the M1) or a 3.6 (referencing the E34), while the M2 gets a 3.2 (referencing the E36 & E46)

This way, potential M2 buyers are happy knowing they got a straight six instead of a 4 cylinder. Not to mention M3/4 owners aren't disappointed or put off because they got essentially a hyped up version of the same motor as a lower series car. I know I'd be pretty ticked if I bought an M4 with a 3.0L 420hp straight six, while the M2 is going for 20k less with a 3.0L 350hp straight six; essentially a dumbed down version of my exact same motor.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

This model will probably get a high output version of the next generation BMW I6.

Okay... so when exactly is the new inline six supposed to debut. I remember at first they were saying the 4er coupe, but that doesn't look like its happening. Is it still with the 4er Gran Coupe? Or has it been pushed back again?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

Okay... so when exactly is the new inline six supposed to debut. I remember at first they were saying the 4er coupe, but that doesn't look like its happening. Is it still with the 4er Gran Coupe? Or has it been pushed back again?

There was never an official date, just rumor and speculation. And that is still the case today. The smart money was originally on the new engine debut coinciding with the coupe's arrival since that is how it has been done for the past three generations. But, with the brand new 4GC coming, yes, that model is currently where we expect to see the new engine show first.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

There was never an official date, just rumor and speculation. And that is still the case today. The smart money was originally on the new engine debut coinciding with the coupe's arrival since that is how it has been done for the past three generations. But, with the brand new 4GC coming, yes, that model is currently where we expect to see the new engine show first.

Yes, I know its all just speculation. Any idea on exactly how different it will be compared to the N55. In other words is it just a tweak (think M52TÜ vs M54) or is it a complete overhaul (M54 vs M52)? Again, I realize this is all speculation, but I am just very curious.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

Yes, I know its all just speculation. Any idea on exactly how different it will be compared to the N55. In other words is it just a tweak (think M52TÜ vs M54) or is it a complete overhaul (M54 vs M52)? Again, I realize this is all speculation, but I am just very curious.

I think you meant N52 in your second comparison above.

What we know about the new engine is that it will be part of a unified inline family that includes 3, 4, and 6 cylinder variants both gasoline and diesel. All engines will be turbocharged. Gasoline engines are single-turbo (twin scroll for I4 and I6) with Valvetronic; diesel engines are multi turbo with variable turbine geometry.

I suspect these new engines will be largely evolutionary in functionality as compared to today's N20, N47, N55, and N57 (the I3s will be new obviously). The key is the shared cylinder size, parts, and tooling. Power is rumored to be up to 133hp/L.

M engines based upon these, of course, will have their own unique characteristics and be capable of even more power.

[Tåst]

Bmw take 1pcs N55 engines, throw all turbo parts to garbage. Find S54 ITB´s and CSL airbox cad-drawings, install direct injection, little cnc-machine work on cylinder head and bigger crank&rod bearings and what we got? Ultra light weight NA straight-six, peak power depends were is red line and what like cams, but something about 340-370bhp.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I think you meant N52 in your second comparison above.

What we know about the new engine is that it will be part of a unified inline family that includes 3, 4, and 6 cylinder variants both gasoline and diesel. All engines will be turbocharged. Gasoline engines are single-turbo (twin scroll for I4 and I6) with Valvetronic; diesel engines are multi turbo with variable turbine geometry.

I suspect these new engines will be largely evolutionary in functionality as compared to today's N20, N47, N55, and N57 (the I3s will be new obviously). The key is the shared cylinder size, parts, and tooling. Power is rumored to be up to 133hp/L.

M engines based upon these, of course, will have their own unique characteristics and be capable of even more power.

Yes, I meant N52. Thanks for the insight.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by Holander

Bmw take 1pcs N55 engines, throw all turbo parts to garbage. Find S54 ITB´s and CSL airbox cad-drawings, install direct injection, little cnc-machine work on cylinder head and bigger crank&rod bearings and what we got? Ultra light weight NA straight-six, peak power depends were is red line and what like cams, but something about 340-370bhp.

NA I6 would be the best engine possible. Lighter than I6 Turbo and better than I4 Turbo. How awesome a 375 PS NA 3.0l I6 revving till 9.000 RPM could be.

Anyway, I doubt BMW will put a detuned M3/M4 engine into the M2. But a tuned M135i engine is not worth an M badge.

[bimmerjph]

Originally Posted by Holander

Bmw take 1pcs N55 engines, throw all turbo parts to garbage. Find S54 ITB´s and CSL airbox cad-drawings, install direct injection, little cnc-machine work on cylinder head and bigger crank&rod bearings and what we got? Ultra light weight NA straight-six, peak power depends were is red line and what like cams, but something about 340-370bhp.

If it has direct injecting then ICB's are pointless. Theoretically you can get better response from valvetronic. I would rather them develop valvetronic further honestly. Because when it is eventually fully developed it will provide better throttle response AND be more efficient than ITB.

This is what I would do if I were head of the ///M R&D department.

• Take N55 as the base
• Give it a slight software tune to say 320hp
• Rework the intake system to be more effecient (and make more noise)
• Rework the exhaust to be more free flowing
• Lighter flywheel
• Tune Valvetronic and Vanos to provide even faster response.
• Spend the rest of their time on reducing weight. (start with throwing out active sound)

All of those things should easily put it at 340hp.


Question: Does anyone know if the N55 has a variable length intake manifold? That alone would dramatically increase the sound as it will allow the engine to have multiple resonant frequencies. For doubters of this there is a simple experiment you can try. If you have a shower with glass doors go in and the sing a note, then gradually go up and down in pitch. At certain pitches you will hear your voice getting louder than at others. This is resonance at work.

[Jason]

BMW has not yet decided on the engine for the M2, so hopefully our member's voices (and votes) will be heard.

[bradleyland]

I voted the "I6 only for me" choice, but I'm having second thoughts. I really like the idea of the weight savings and better balance. I don't typically modify my cars, so the extra headroom we'd gain from the I6 wouldn't make a difference to me. The big sticking point for me would be day-to-day drivability and the sound.

The rubber-band acceleration characteristics of a turbo-charged engine (yes, even with the N54/N55) are fun for a while, but it gets to be a bit of an annoyance, and it's something that must be managed while on a track. Take a corner a gear up from where you should be and you'll be fighting/moderating torque surge on exit. With an N/A car, you'd still botch the corner, but your torque ramp will be much smoother. Obviously, the turbo car is going to pull out of the mistake better (more torque = more acceleration), but there's something attractive about the linear nature of a N/A engine.

Because of the relatively low boost and dual-inlet geometry turbo setup, the N54/N55 exhibit far less of the low-RPM turbo-torque-surge characteristic when compared with just about any I4 turbo car I've driven that is tuned beyond 250 HP. I'd be loath to lose that benefit, but when I look under the hood of our X3 (28i) and see how compact, and just how far back it sits in the chassis, I feel like I'd be missing out on obvious benefits by going the I6 route.

After living with the N20 powered X3 for a while, the choice is much tougher than I thought it would be.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

I voted the "I6 only for me" choice, but I'm having second thoughts. I really like the idea of the weight savings and better balance. I don't typically modify my cars, so the extra headroom we'd gain from the I6 wouldn't make a difference to me. The big sticking point for me would be day-to-day drivability and the sound.

The rubber-band acceleration characteristics of a turbo-charged engine (yes, even with the N54/N55) are fun for a while, but it gets to be a bit of an annoyance, and it's something that must be managed while on a track. Take a corner a gear up from where you should be and you'll be fighting/moderating torque surge on exit. With an N/A car, you'd still botch the corner, but your torque ramp will be much smoother. Obviously, the turbo car is going to pull out of the mistake better (more torque = more acceleration), but there's something attractive about the linear nature of a N/A engine.

Because of the relatively low boost and dual-inlet geometry turbo setup, the N54/N55 exhibit far less of the low-RPM turbo-torque-surge characteristic when compared with just about any I4 turbo car I've driven that is tuned beyond 250 HP. I'd be loath to lose that benefit, but when I look under the hood of our X3 (28i) and see how compact, and just how far back it sits in the chassis, I feel like I'd be missing out on obvious benefits by going the I6 route.

After living with the N20 powered X3 for a while, the choice is much tougher than I thought it would be.

Excellent post and a great summary of why this must not be an easy decision for BMW