[yeezy]

So slightly off topic. I've tried driving with DTC off and I can't really feel a difference. I know that chart has been beaten to death. But can someone actually explain the difference they feel in handling when driving with DTC off. I mean I'm just casually driving so that might be why I don't notice.


Thanks.

[ocN55]

Is there a mode also called "TRACTION OFF". I accidentally put myself into the mode, seems different from DSC off, it was a different message.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by ocN55

Is there a mode also called "TRACTION OFF". I accidentally put myself into the mode, seems different from DSC off, it was a different message.

That's DTC off, the halfway setting like any other BMW activated by a quick depress rather than a long press of the DSC off button

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by yeezy

So slightly off topic. I've tried driving with DTC off and I can't really feel a difference. I know that chart has been beaten to death. But can someone actually explain the difference they feel in handling when driving with DTC off. I mean I'm just casually driving so that might be why I don't notice.


Thanks.

There is no difference to "Feel" with DTC. DTC is Dynamic traction control. Disabling it allows the wheels to spin without the traction control system intervening. If you smash the gas off the line with DTC off, you'll get some wheelspin. The DSC (Dynamic Stability control) system is still enabled, which means if you start to get sideways the computer will start to intervene.

Unless you are putting enough power down to get the wheels to spin, DTC on or off would make no difference.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Ramos

That's DTC off, the halfway setting like any other BMW activated by a quick depress rather than a long press of the DSC off button

actually it's DTC ON

[yeezy]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

There is no difference to "Feel" with DTC. DTC is Dynamic traction control. Disabling it allows the wheels to spin without the traction control system intervening. If you smash the gas off the line with DTC off, you'll get some wheelspin. The DSC (Dynamic Stability control) system is still enabled, which means if you start to get sideways the computer will start to intervene.

Unless you are putting enough power down to get the wheels to spin, DTC on or off would make no difference.

thanks, yeah i knew that but wasn't sure if there was any other difference i was missing haha thanks!

[BarryJI]

I just tried this DTC OFF/Comfort mode combo for the first time. Interesting! It retains the Sport + suspension settings but, as has been noted, has linear throttle input. It's perfect for the track or for certain types of freeway/highway driving, I would almost consider it a "GT Mode". I imagine it's very welcome in a 6MT because in an MT, who needs the artificial throttle-response gearing of Sport and Sport + when throttle response in a decent MT should be instantaneous, linear and predictable? In an 8AT like my 228i M Sport, however, the Sport throttle settings are more valuable, I reckon, because in ATs there is always some throttle lag and these settings represent an approach to dialing it out at the expense of a non-linear response curve.

I have got in the habit of always driving the car in Sport or Sport + but if I am going to use this pretty interesting Comfort/DTC OFF mode, I will need to learn two distinctly different forms of throttle input/output behavior. If I had the MT I think I would use the latter mode a lot, as the linearity makes a lot of sense, in fact it has just occurred to me to try it with the shifter thrown to the left in S/T mode so that I can combine the linear throttle and sport suspension with manual gear selection. Now THAT might be a new sweet spot for me in this car, I think.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

I just tried this DTC OFF/Comfort mode combo for the first time. Interesting! It retains the Sport + suspension settings but, as has been noted, has linear throttle input. It's perfect for the track or for certain types of freeway/highway driving, I would almost consider it a "GT Mode". I imagine it's very welcome in a 6MT because in an MT, who needs the artificial throttle-response gearing of Sport and Sport + when throttle response in a decent MT should be instantaneous, linear and predictable? In an 8AT like my 228i M Sport, however, the Sport throttle settings are more valuable, I reckon, because in ATs there is always some throttle lag and these settings represent an approach to dialing it out at the expense of a non-linear response curve.

I have got in the habit of always driving the car in Sport or Sport + but if I am going to use this pretty interesting Comfort/DTC OFF mode, I will need to learn two distinctly different forms of throttle input/output behavior. If I had the MT I think I would use the latter mode a lot, as the linearity makes a lot of sense, in fact it has just occurred to me to try it with the shifter thrown to the left in S/T mode so that I can combine the linear throttle and sport suspension with manual gear selection. Now THAT might be a new sweet spot for me in this car, I think.

Do you really want to drive all the time in the street with the nannies off? Nothing to do with your driving skills but it's good to have a safety net on the streets and reserve DSC off for the track.

Now DTC on ( the traction / halfway setting) is intended for use in snow conditions especially when navigating inclined driveways. That's a different story.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Do you really want to drive all the time in the street with the nannies off? Nothing to do with your driving skills but it's good to have a safety net on the streets and reserve DSC off for the track.

Now DTC on ( the traction / halfway setting) is intended for use in snow conditions especially when navigating inclined driveways. That's a different story.

Stability control is a safety feature.
I learned to drive in RWD cars where the only safety feature was a lap belt.

If people can't daily drive on the street with other drivers without stability control on, then they should hand their license in until they get some more driving training.

Personally, I very much DISLIKE all the "driver mode" BS.
Build the f'ing sport coupe or sport sedan and because it is sport coupe/sedan then it needs all controls set to FULL ON, period.
I accept DTC and DSC with ability to turn those on or off.

This mode crap is just annoying. Sport this with throttle that with suspension the other and steering whatever.
Having all this ridiculous driver mode settings without the ability to individually select what the driver wants and then create a preset, makes the modes pointless, and obviously causes confusion.
I'd LOVE the option to not have any driver modes in a sport package equipped BMW.
Let the engineers set the parameters for the best sport driving like they used to and I'd be happy.
My E46 325i sport and 135i didn't have "Modes" and they were/are fantastic and fun to drive cars.

Driver modes have become yet another gimmick that is even being put in family cars. That is just idiotic. Marketing never rests.

[Ramos]

Very well said. I totally agree with you about driving modes being stupid.

The only exception would be adjustable suspension which would allow a comfortable ride around town on an otherwise very stiffly sprung car. Not really needed on the M235 imo, I would have happily given up that option if it was a choice.

As for the nannies and learning to drive rwd cars, I hear you and I'm confident in my skills myself (20 plus track weekends) but with the current HP and torque levels of every day cars, I think it's a good idea to have that safety net. A mistake on track is likely a harmless spin, a mistake while taking an offramp at 120 + is probably a fatal accident.

My E46 M3 had perfect suspension, steering and throttle without any stupid settings. Totally agree with you on that point. They are gimmicks

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Very well said. I totally agree with you about driving modes being stupid.

The only exception would be adjustable suspension which would allow a comfortable ride around town on an otherwise very stiffly sprung car. Not really needed on the M235 imo, I would have happily given up that option if it was a choice.

As for the nannies and learning to drive rwd cars, I hear you and I'm confident in my skills myself (20 plus track weekends) but with the current HP and torque levels of every day cars, I think it's a good idea to have that safety net. A mistake on track is likely a harmless spin, a mistake while taking an offramp at 120 + is probably a fatal accident.

My E46 M3 had perfect suspension, steering and throttle without any stupid settings. Totally agree with you on that point. They are gimmicks

Why would you be taking an off ramp at 120+ though ?

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Why would you be taking an off ramp at 120+ though ?

Because it's fun? What I was thinking about was more of a freeway merger with a really nice sweeper that can be taken at that speed. So not really an offramp

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Because it's fun? What I was thinking about was more of a freeway merger with a really nice sweeper that can be taken at that speed. So not really an offramp

Probably not the wisest thing to do on the street though

[BarryJI]

I drove my last car, also a high-torque machine, with TC OFF, but only, obviously, when safe and the roads were dry. It did not encourage me to drive like a maniac and there were no unfortunate consequences, for myself or anyone else. I still do not fully trust/understand my suspension/engine-tuned M Sport's likely behavior under heavy cornering and I do not want to be caught by surprise either by severe understeer or if the rears come loose. So, on fast sweeping turns I will be somewhat cautious, as usual, careful to maintain a little throttle input and not to approach the limits, as I may be less than happy with the result. In the 8AT with DSC OFF and transmission set to Sport (i.e. manual, w/paddles or sequential shifter) at least I will be able to select the gear myself and it will stay in that gear until I choose to shift, and the throttle input, being linear, is unlikely to spring any surprises also.

[Ramos]

Remember this?

That is exactly why you shouldn't turn DSC off on the street. I'm pretty sure he's a better driver than anyone on this forum.

[BarryJI]

Jezza is driving in the wet.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Very well said. I totally agree with you about driving modes being stupid.

The only exception would be adjustable suspension which would allow a comfortable ride around town on an otherwise very stiffly sprung car. Not really needed on the M235 imo, I would have happily given up that option if it was a choice.

As for the nannies and learning to drive rwd cars, I hear you and I'm confident in my skills myself (20 plus track weekends) but with the current HP and torque levels of every day cars, I think it's a good idea to have that safety net. A mistake on track is likely a harmless spin, a mistake while taking an offramp at 120 + is probably a fatal accident.

My E46 M3 had perfect suspension, steering and throttle without any stupid settings. Totally agree with you on that point. They are gimmicks

Yes, I don't mind DTC/DSC being there, but I want to turn them off completely when I want.
I would also love to be able to turn off ABS when driving on snow and other low traction conditions, because ABS can actually INCREASE braking distance. But I'll never win that argument to make ABS on/off as optional.

Having 300hp or 150hp will still let a car like the 2 series get up to 120mph. Power level shouldn't necessitate stability control. The fact that we in the US have such poorly trained drivers makes these controls safety features for others on the road.
If one is doing 120mph on a public off ramp, and can't handle it, then I think you will agree, that they have no business trying that on a public road with stability control or not. DSC can only help to a certain degree, and mostly it's there for daily driving on bad road conditions, not for being a driver who lacks skill and sense.

Adaptive dampers are a very good technology when applied correctly.
Still, when applied to a "sport" coupe or sedan, I prefer not to have optional soft settings. A nicely down sport suspension, either static or adaptive, for a road car should be done well and not need to be softened for the supposed "sport" driver who can't handle the firmer damping.

I contend that even an adaptive damper that allows for cushy cruising has been designed to compromise for that and thus the best sporting capabilities can't be maximized. To get that cushy ride the spring rates can't be moved to the proper area for best sport control.
Adaptive dampers on a sport coupe/sedan should be able to give "firm" and "firmer".
If softness is needed, then offer an adaptive suspension that can go from "soft" to "less soft".

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Remember this?

That is exactly why you shouldn't turn DSC off on the street. I'm pretty sure he's a better driver than anyone on this forum.

You do realize that Jeremy is a lead footed meat head, right?
That whole video before the spin demonstrates that he likes to go all out even when not prudent, regardless of his skill.

The spin out at 120mph may not have been protected by DSC.
He very likely hydroplaned. Note the heavy amount of water on the pavement.
Once tires loose traction, especially at that speed, there aren't any systems that are going to reel it back in.

He simply got too happy with the power and then himself without giving full regard to the road conditions. Bad decision does not DSC mandate.
But, for the safety of others, maybe it is a good idea to scare everyone into thinking that they HAVE TO have stability control on at all times, or they will simply go spinning into a crowd of pregnant women with toddlers running around a bunch of nuns.

[BarryJI]

Adaptive dampers are a very good technology when applied correctly. Still, when applied to a "sport" coupe or sedan, I prefer not to have optional soft settings. A nicely down sport suspension, either static or adaptive, for a road car should be done well and not need to be softened for the supposed "sport" driver who can't handle the firmer damping.

That is precisely what Dinan Shockware is designed to address in the 228i with adaptive suspension, and I am very happy with the results. I do not have to deal any more with softness that exists at the expense of the "honest" suspension appropriate for a true driver's car. This dials it out, even from Comfort mode.

[tke743]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Stability control is a safety feature.
I learned to drive in RWD cars where the only safety feature was a lap belt.

If people can't daily drive on the street with other drivers without stability control on, then they should hand their license in until they get some more driving training.

Personally, I very much DISLIKE all the "driver mode" BS.
Build the f'ing sport coupe or sport sedan and because it is sport coupe/sedan then it needs all controls set to FULL ON, period.
I accept DTC and DSC with ability to turn those on or off.

This mode crap is just annoying. Sport this with throttle that with suspension the other and steering whatever.
Having all this ridiculous driver mode settings without the ability to individually select what the driver wants and then create a preset, makes the modes pointless, and obviously causes confusion.
I'd LOVE the option to not have any driver modes in a sport package equipped BMW.
Let the engineers set the parameters for the best sport driving like they used to and I'd be happy.
My E46 325i sport and 135i didn't have "Modes" and they were/are fantastic and fun to drive cars.

Driver modes have become yet another gimmick that is even being put in family cars. That is just idiotic. Marketing never rests.

I may be confused here, but realistically the only preset you can't get is all nannys off and the hyper-exaggerated throttle on.

If you want the nannys off, but the non-linear throttle on, then I understand your point, but I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want that. With all the nannys off, you need tight throttle control, and the non-linear throttle makes that unlikely.

Originally Posted by RPM90

You do realize that Jeremy is a lead footed meat head, right?
That whole video before the spin demonstrates that he likes to go all out even when not prudent, regardless of his skill.

The spin out at 120mph may not have been protected by DSC.
He very likely hydroplaned. Note the heavy amount of water on the pavement.
Once tires loose traction, especially at that speed, there aren't any systems that are going to reel it back in.

He simply got too happy with the power and then himself without giving full regard to the road conditions. Bad decision does not DSC mandate.
But, for the safety of others, maybe it is a good idea to scare everyone into thinking that they HAVE TO have stability control on at all times, or they will simply go spinning into a crowd of pregnant women with toddlers running around a bunch of nuns.

Vey well said, and also the GTI didn't hydroplane as it topped out at just under 100mph per the show. He lost it at 120 and he was still accelerating on a flat surface and standing water. Dumb, but I miss him so already.

[opfreak]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Very well said. I totally agree with you about driving modes being stupid.

The only exception would be adjustable suspension which would allow a comfortable ride around town on an otherwise very stiffly sprung car. Not really needed on the M235 imo, I would have happily given up that option if it was a choice.

As for the nannies and learning to drive rwd cars, I hear you and I'm confident in my skills myself (20 plus track weekends) but with the current HP and torque levels of every day cars, I think it's a good idea to have that safety net. A mistake on track is likely a harmless spin, a mistake while taking an offramp at 120 + is probably a fatal accident.

My E46 M3 had perfect suspension, steering and throttle without any stupid settings. Totally agree with you on that point. They are gimmicks

you've taken ramps at 120?

Having driven on the autoban, it takes alot of room and space to get to 120.

[SteveInfante]

This is the reason why I'm glad I found the car I did. Manual and basic so no EDC to deal with. I like to address the driving characteristics of my suspension myself instead of letting the car choose for for me.