[BarryJI]

You have to understand the difference between capability and quality. Seems unlikely to happen any time soon, though. And of course you are entitled to your opinion.

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

Each car has pro and cons. Some suit a person's needs "better" than others. Does not mean one car is better than another, just more suited to one buyer or one's intended uses than another.

You know. I've made these points already, before some yahoo brought the Dodge Viper into the discussion.

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

You have to understand the difference between capability and quality. Seems unlikely to happen any time soon, though. And of course you are entitled to your opinion.

Implying the M240i has lower quality than 230i even when it's more capable.

Looks like you're unlikely to understand the concept of logic anytime soon. Of course you're also entitled to your opinion.

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

And looks like you're unlikely to understand the concept of logic anytime soon. Of course you're also entitled to your opinion.

Your concept of logic is quite simply this:

Bigger = Better

Brilliant.

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Your concept of logic is quite simply this:

Bigger = Better

Brilliant.

No, and this is what you keep failing to understand. Better numbers in the same chassis = better car.

M2 > M240i > 230i.

Even if some claim the 230i handles better than M2 or M240i, there are others who claim the opposite. What can't be argued are the numbers.

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

No, and this is what you keep failing to understand. Better numbers in the same chassis = better car.

M2 > M240i > 230i.

Even if some claim the 230i handles better than M2 or M240i, there are others who claim the opposite. What can't be argued are the numbers.

One more time: numbers are no measure of quality. All they ever set out to measure is capability. You are using data to quantify a purely subjective value.

[19bis]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

... we're buying performance cars, not Toyota Yaris. We care about performance numbers.

No, YOU care about performance numbers.

My wife & I were looking for an attractive, comfortable, well-appointed, affordable, fun to drive DD. A 230i 6MT hit the sweet spot for us.

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

One more time: numbers are no measure of quality. All they ever set out to measure is capability. You are using data to quantify a purely subjective value.

And you're using your subjective perception to override data. Capability very much plays into how I measure quality of the drive. It's something we'll have to agree to disagree on.

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by 19bis

No, YOU care about performance numbers.

My wife & I were looking for an attractive, comfortable, well-appointed, affordable, fun to drive DD. A 230i 6MT hit the sweet spot for us.

What made you choose the 230i over any other car that arguably could satify your requirements above? Don't tell me performance numbers don't matter because the 230i is no slouch.

[3rdcoast228i]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i View Post
M2 is a better car, period.


And it is. period.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So is it:

Better riding?

Better Gas Mileage?

It's a better Track car! Other than that it is not better in the all areas.

Parsing to make a point, really doesn't make one.

Each car has pro and cons. Some suit a person's needs "better" than others. Does not mean one car is better than another, just more suited to one buyer or one's intended uses than another.

And that right there was exactly my point.

Parsing to make a point, really doesn't make one.

Actually I was being more sarcastic than anything. Becuase someone out there is always going to have a "higher proformance" car. Even just limiting things to 2 series, someone out there is modding the crap out of their car.

[3rdcoast228i]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

What made you choose the 230i over any other car that arguably could satify your requirements above? Don't tell me performance numbers don't matter because the 230i is no slouch.

I picked my car over a competitively priced camaro that had better performance numbers. I picked my car because it's was much more fun to drive.

Why can't you wrap your head around the fact not everyone makes decisions based on numbers? Although that is in fact a trendy thing to do. Many people buy cars simply based on 0 to 60 times, go for it if it makes you happy.

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i

Even just limiting things to 2 series, someone out there is modding the crap out of their car.

Yup, another reason why magazine spec's are useless in the real world. One tune, one simple mod, even tires, and everything changes from a performance capability perspective. I understand it goes both ways, but where do you ever draw the line?

Prime example: C63 AMG sedan owner at recent HPDE event.

AMG dude: "Hey buddy, nice bimmer you got there, what kind of hp are you making?"

Me: "Thanks man, makes about 350whp give or take, 400ish ft-lbs, but I bought it to drive it, hard. So this power is suitable for my needs. What's going on with this here AMG?"

AMG dude: "With the tune and exhaust my AMG is putting out 610hp, some say more depending on altitude (yea, he went there)"

Me: "Wow that's crazy! How do you even hook up with so much power?" Noticing he has conti DWS, worn badly..

AMG dude: "I keep it in sport mode and it never spins, has e-lsd"

Me: "Ohh okay, makes total sense, see ya on the track in a few, yea?"


Lunch break after 3x20 minute sessions


AMG dude: "Bro, you really push that car, eh!? You pulled away from me so easily.." I honestly would have pulled a schoolbus length if we had room, his car was nowhere near his HP expectation..

Me: "I am pretty comfortable in this car, so I can use all of its available power/grip"

AMG dude: "Yea but you like, passed me, the 911, the CTS-V and the Jag R, twice in 20 minutes!!"

Me: "Must be everyone getting used to the track, keep at it!"...

Actually was my first time, at Area 27. And this is the exact reason I opted for the M-lite car, no one expects anything from it, because it's FAR INFERIOR to the M2

[Y0tsuya]

Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i

Why can't you wrap your head around the fact not everyone makes decisions based on numbers? Although that is in fact a trendy thing to do. Many people buy cars simply based on 0 to 60 times, go for it if it makes you happy.

If your cared to read my previous posts, I understand just fine. I'm just engaged with people who argued that more HP is all subjective and people shouldn't care about that.

If it's available in the states, would you be happy with the 218i? It's 180hp and costs about $7k less than 230i. Same chassis so should be equally fun to drive. If yes, then HP doesn't matter to you and you win this round.

[stevenvillatoro]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

There's nothing better than "outperforming" the "higher-performing" car, simply with a driver mod.

Even better is to outperform a higher-performing car by virtue of nothing but superior driving skills. Too many people use mods as a surrogate for real human skill, which is often lacking. I'll grab the one-testicled car anyday, for the joy of genuinely testing my driving skill rather/versus what my name-brand mod can do. Talent can't be purchased online.

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by stevenvillatoro

Even better is to outperform a higher-performing car by virtue of nothing but superior driving skills. Too many people use mods as a surrogate for real human skill, which is often lacking. I'll grab the one-testicled car anyday, for the joy of genuinely testing my driving skill rather/versus what my name-brand mod can do. Talent can't be purchased online.

Like the single testicle Miata? IMO, best example of a gutless wonder than can lap with most mid range sports cars with the right driver, sans 200hp

[caycep]

I look at it like an engineer - you wouldn't want a intel chip to power a smartphone when an ARM chip will handle all your computations and uses much less power and memory.

N20/N26 is really good at what it is designed for, therefore it has merit.

N55 is also good for what it does as well - 2014-2017 BMW 2 series buyers are fortunate to have a lot of choices

218 or a 220 would be a steal at $20-25,000 base.

and yes, I'd get a Miata as a second card if I had an extra money/garage space lying around...

[Mjpgolf1]

Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i

I picked my car over a competitively priced camaro that had better performance numbers. I picked my car because it's was much more fun to drive.

Why can't you wrap your head around the fact not everyone makes decisions based on numbers? Although that is in fact a trendy thing to do. Many people buy cars simply based on 0 to 60 times, go for it if it makes you happy.

You are a different type of bmw owner obviously. Lots of people come in to the store and buy BMWs and don’t care one bit about having the top of the line, best performing bmw within the line they are looking at. The enthusiast bmw owner makes up a very small percentage of cars sold. If you didn’t care about lap times, 0-60 times, braking performance, horsepower, and torque, and just wanted a fun little car to run about in then you made a great decision by going with the car you did. It still gives a fun factor that is on par with much more expensive cars and as long as it puts a smile on your face then that’s all that counts.

That all said we still have a small segment of folks who come in wanting the car with the most power and performance.

[Ron Jeffries]

Smart people buy what they want, within their budget, according to their interests. I've driven most of the "real" M cars over the years and most of them feel to me as if they're only really fun if driven hard, to the point of illegal and dangerous.

At the same time, I do like good performance, so I can be slightly illegal and a little bit dangerous. Thus I wind up with things like 135is, and M240i. They're usually at the high end of cost -- and then I stupidly save $800 by not ordering some option. Forget what I said earlier about smart people.

And then there are the odd needs. I can't convince my wife to park her car out in the snow so I can have both sides of the garage, so I decided to drop my 135is convertible and my Juke and get down to one car. Voila, M240i convertible xDrive, for year-round enjoyment. Would a 4 cylinder have been as much fun? Probably, but different fun.

People get to choose what they want. "Better" depends on what aspects you're trying to optimize, and that's different for everyone. My pal drives a big Mercedes SUV. Not for me, but it's fine for him.

That's how it goes ...

[yanks1]

I hear/read both motors are VG; some actually prefer the lighter 230i coupe even though not the same raw power. Its clear though the 2 series is well built & fun to drive

[asrgt]

Originally Posted by 000000

I'm a 230i owner. Sometimes disappointed if a poster says they would like to buy the 230i . Most responses go, you should get the m240i because when optioned up price is not much different & imply you'd be crazy not to. I don't want to upset the m240i owners , but I feel the 4 cyl. are worth a second look . In Australia price gap between models seem to be larger the 220i Au$52900, 230i Au$63000 & m240i Au$76800 . Yes I wanted the m240i just thought I would like to afford groceries as well as petrol. Where I live the max. speed limit is 100kph. ( 0-100kph 220i 7.2sec/ 230i 5.6sec / m240i 4.6sec approx) The car is plenty fast enough, for me the way it handles is more important. The 2 things about the 230i I don't like are the runflats ( which can be changed ) and the lack of 6cyl. engine sound (which can't).
If I could choose again would it be the 230i? I think so.
4 cylinder 2's have merit ? I think so. (but what would I know.)

Honestly, I think all the models within the 2 series are cracking good fun, and there is a car to suit most budgets and preferences it’s an all-round great package.

Also been a fellow Aussie there is a wide gap between what the US market offers compared to AUS , standard equipment varies allot between the models and while in the US it clear the M240i offers the best bang for buck, in Australia id argue that’s simply not the case thanks to our insane LCT tax ( Luxury Car Tax).

[ramy_who]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

No, and this is what you keep failing to understand. Better numbers in the same chassis = better car.

M2 > M240i > 230i.

Even if some claim the 230i handles better than M2 or M240i, there are others who claim the opposite. What can't be argued are the numbers.

It's a fact that the 228/30's handle better than 35/40's. It's not a claim. It's also a fact that 35/40's are quicker in a straight line.

The only subjective claims are which one is more fun to drive. That all depends on your idea of fun.

Just to be clear my fully loaded 228 costs the same a base 235. Not even counting my mods. The 235 is very nose heavy and that took me literally 10 seconds to notice when I test drove both. Also keep in my mind that the E30 M3 had a 4 cylinder engine. The 228 stays true to BMW's heritage IMO... and you can even argue that the entire 2 series lineup does (and I would agree). I just don't like it when people hate on the N20/B48 when the light 4 cylinder e30 M3 is what made BMW recognized as a fun performance vehicle in the first place.The N52 in E90's unfortunately gave the 28's a bad rep.

The entire lineup is very capable and much more fun than any other series IMO. Think of it like this... each 2er variant caters to different lifestyles/priorities more so than the level of fun you're looking for. We're 2addicts not 235 addicts.

[X54TH]

We own both a 2016 M235 and a 2017 230 (well appointed w/ m Pkg). Both are fun vehicles and enjoy them both. I would consider the 230 to be a great daily drive that is very fuel efficient while giving you a spirited experience...drove it yesterday in Sports mode and enjoyed it. My biggest beef about the 230 is the exhaust note.

I absolutely love the M235 but I find it very different than the 230 for obvious reasons. The M235 has the Dinan CAI, Chip and MPE. The tires are the OEM MPSS on VMR's 710. The M235 is planted, very fast and the sound makes it thrilling.

Something to note, in Canada there are some options not available on the 230 that are available on the upgrade to the M235. I think it was the, adaptive headlights, adaptive high beams and forward warning collision were the three that we have on the M235 that we couldn't get on the 230.