[aerostar]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

The last car I had that was a manual gearbox was my Audi A4 drag car (580whp) and it didn't ever hold a 4-puck,6-puck whatever clutch for longer than two-three events. That was until I went with a twin disc, which then lasted a whole season. The single plated clutches were all rated for "600-800tq" but couldn't take the hard AWD launches, hence why twins are so good for drag racing.

Buy the type of clutch for your driving style, not necessarily hp/tq.. If you're a track lapper, with moderate power, the stock clutch is what you want for the smoothest engagement possible, I have yet to see a FBO 235i destroy a clutch due to power alone. If you're drag racing, even at stock power, you will toast your clutch from slipping/launching guaranteed.

We're lucky BMW knows how to equip these cars with a strong factory unit. The ones in the VW's these days are fried after Stage 1 in most cases. That is simply a case of going from 210hp/250tq to 310hp/390tq and spirited driving, not drag racing. So from the power perspective, if you're increasing torque by that much, you should consider a clutch before modding to that point, unless you know what the outcome will be and are prepared for it.

So you think VW's engineers should spec the clutch to be able to hold 50% more hp/torque?

[abirmaher]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

He's running all the bolt-ons plus a turbo upgrade. It's not surprising that the stock clutch is protesting.

If you've added power mods and/or you drive hard, the OEM clutch will wear quicker than normal. If you're running a lot more power and/or slip the clutch a lot, clutch life will be significantly reduced.

Yeah... My car is way above stock power. Though my clutch is slipping more I think due to a transmission issue which I have yet to go fix. Once I do that I'll think of clutch options. Right now I can run on map 2 with the jb4 and it won't slip. Maybe a tad here and here. It's when I run an e85 mix that it completely let's go.

Basically I'm stalled on that till I go in to see about my synchro issue then replace the clutch. So after I've done all that I may have more input to give.

[esp260]

How do you tell when your clutch is starting to slip?

[redontheline]

Oddly enough, this thread, above any others recently, is making the wait for my delivery so much tougher.

[Y0tsuya]

I don't understand how someone can destroy their clutch so soon. When I sold my E46 330i after 15 years 190K miles, it's still on the original clutch which still works fine. It was my 1st MT car too.

[BMW GENIUS]

Originally Posted by Y0tsuya

I don't understand how someone can destroy their clutch so soon. When I sold my E46 330i after 15 years, it's still on the original clutch which still works fine.

Probably just my s*** driving as suggested above. No denying or lying about it.

[bluemeanie]

Originally Posted by esp260

How do you tell when your clutch is starting to slip?

The engine revs will increase unexpectedly while under load. For example, imagine you are motoring along and head up a hill. Suddenly the revs go higher. That is inability of the clutch to provide enough friction to transfer the increased engine force to the wheels. If you experience this fix it right away because the clutch will soon fail completely.

You may also have difficulty getting the car in gear as the clutch friction normally helps rev match. No friction means engine revs will be out of sync with the transmission. You might be able to rev match by using heel and toe, but not for long.

[esp260]

Originally Posted by bluemeanie

The engine revs will increase unexpectedly while under load. For example, imagine you are motoring along and head up a hill. Suddenly the revs go higher. That is inability of the clutch to provide enough friction to transfer the increased engine force to the wheels. If you experience this fix it right away because the clutch will soon fail completely.

You may also have difficulty getting the car in gear as the clutch friction normally helps rev match. No friction means engine revs will be out of sync with the transmission. You might be able to rev match by using heel and toe, but not for long.

I don't see signs of a slipping clutch for myself, but my clutch has been feeling a little different recently (not sure if it's because of the bipolar weather here lately).

Not exactly sure how to explain it, but recently I find myself having more trouble driving smoothly, especially shifts to 2nd. Would this be signs of a failing clutch? Or possibly the pressure plate?

I was originally worried about a slipping clutch but theres no signs of revs jumping or anything like that nor difficulty getting into gear.

[bluemeanie]

It may seem ridiculous to suggest this, but I have a problem similar to what you describe if my seat distance from the pedals is a little too far away. It causes me to not quite fully depress the clutch pedal, which can make it harder to change gears. Having the distance wrong also slightly messes up the timing of things.

[redontheline]

Originally Posted by bluemeanie

It may seem ridiculous to suggest this, but I have a problem similar to what you describe if my seat distance from the pedals is a little too far away. It causes me to not quite fully depress the clutch pedal, which can make it harder to change gears. Having the distance wrong also slightly messes up the timing of things.

I've been moving my seat back and forth a few notches every other day lately to adjust for how lazy my seating position is that portion of the week. There's age in these 24 year old bones

But it can make a large difference in a smooth clutch release.

[ocN55]

Wow did this thread get derailed. Anybody have an answer to OP's question about the 550i clutch?
Cut him some slack, what's done is already done to his clutch.

[rezilient]

Originally Posted by esp260

How do you tell when your clutch is starting to slip?

I have the same question. I just got my M235i and since it's the only 235 I've driven I am not sure if things are normal with the clutch engagement point and grip. Wondering if I should take her into BMW during the next oil change and ask them to give it a closer look.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Fair enough.

1. This time around, practice releasing the clutch to the friction point (without any throttle) and then adding throttle to keep RPMs steady when you take off.

2. When shifting, generally, don't spend too much time with the clutch pedal between 0% and 100% depressed. Make your shifts briskly. Don't let RPM fall below where they would be in the next gear.

3. YouTube how to rev-match. Practice by rev matching 4th-3rd at about 35mph. That's like 1800 rpm in 4th to like 2300 in 3rd. You blip the gas pedal to bring the revs up from where they are in 4th to where they will be in 3rd while you're foot presses down on the clutch and then when you release the clutch quickly it should be smooth.

Mimic the behavior of a modern automatic transmission, basically.

It might sound hard at first, but it's really easy after doing it for a day or 2. 2nd gear will always be hardest to rev match, but always get it as close as you can.

Never downshift into first.

Oh, and btw, if you can't rev match, then only downshift if your at 2000 rpm or below. A downshift from 3000-5500 rpm (like, let's say 3rd to 2nd gear at 40 mph) without a rev match is really hard on the clutch.

Hope this helps, I'm sure if you have any questions I and other forum members can give you some more insights.


P.S. Maybe one of our European members can chime in. During a trip to Russia last year, I noticed that although many people "drive stick" such as cab drivers, everyone was really really really bad at it. They were really sloppy. They would rev to like 2500-3000 rpm and then release the clutch to move from a stop and then upshift at like 4000 rpm. Why is this? Why aren't Europeans taught how to properly drive a manual?

One other suggestion

When sitting at a light/stop dont sit there with the clutch pedal to the floor

Put the car in nuetral and let the clutch out

It saves a lot of wear and tear on springs/pilot bearing/etc

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by esp260

How do you tell when your clutch is starting to slip?

With a normal temperature car.
Like flaring in an automatic transmission, you'll be driving along at a steady speed and not adding throttle and your rpm will drop and rise independently. And when engaging first you need lots or revs to get going or when shifting in any gear as you add gas the car doesn't accelerate as expected.

[amw896]

Originally Posted by BMW GENIUS

I appreciate all the help and advice on how to drive standard shift. I'd say a year's worth of practice has allowed me to get quite a bit better. It also probably doesn't help the fact that I'm on Map 7 and made 479 WTQ on a dyno last week. I could imagine that will wear a clutch rather quickly too

learning to drive standard with that much power! That's awesome! I'm surprised no one mentioned this - but when I was first learning to drive standard, I was taught to double clutch properly. Its no longer really necessary but it is the ultimate in synchromesh/tranny and clutch preservation. I still do it daily, especially when my gearbox was new and when it's cold. Its the best method for engine to tranny speed matching imo.

[rich8566]

Originally Posted by Wheelwright

There is a big gap between 1st and 2nd in M235i so if you don't downshift into 1st you may end up lugging the engine because you will rev below 1000rpm in 2nd. For example if you turn 90-degrees into a hill you must slow down practically to a crawl so there is no alternative but to downshift into 1st. Moreover: I looked up "LuK Clutch System Failures.pdf" (LuK makes the clutch) and one of the reasons for premature clutch failure they list is lugging the engine.

Use the double clutch technique if you need to downshift into 1st gear.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by aerostar

So you think VW's engineers should spec the clutch to be able to hold 50% more hp/torque?

Yes.

VW has had lots of issues with clutch/DMF's exploding and taking out transmissions over the years

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Yes.

VW has had lots of issues with clutch/DMF's exploding and taking out transmissions over the years

This is so true -- and one of the many reasons why, back in the MkIII-MkV GTi days, the Audi-developed 1.8T was far preferred over the VW-developed VR6, which was dated and all but topped out, for modding.

VW used that engine in many Audis and Seats, including the TT and A4, and had it producing 40-50 percent more hp and torque stock on some of those platforms. The GTi's version made just below 180hp stock -- yet had the same drivetrains and internals. An ECU flash instantly produced 35-40 more hp and @ 50 ft-lbs. All one needed to do to eat Boxsters for lunch was mildly upgrade the suspension.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This is so true -- and one of the many reasons why, back in the MkIII-MkV GTi days, the Audi-developed 1.8T was far preferred over the VW-developed VR6, which was dated and all but topped out, for modding.

VW used that engine in many Audis and Seats, including the TT and A4, and had it producing 40-50 percent more hp and torque stock on some of those platforms. The GTi's version made just below 180hp stock -- yet had the same drivetrains and internals. An ECU flash instantly produced 35-40 more hp and @ 50 ft-lbs. All one needed to do to eat Boxsters for lunch was mildly upgrade the suspension.

Exactly

The MkV TDI's were coming spec'd with Luk and/or Sachs DMF/Clutch units that were so badly underspec'd by VW that the DMF's were heating up, warping then cracking due to metal fatigue and eventually they would break and when that happened it was like a grenade went off in the transmission housing turning a 1k job into a 6k clutch/transmission replacement

Most people replaced them right off with a solid flywheel/clutch combo (VR6/G60 combo) and never looked back

I'm admittedly a bit skeptical of anything with a DMF in it.....give me a solid flywheel

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This is so true -- and one of the many reasons why, back in the MkIII-MkV GTi days, the Audi-developed 1.8T was far preferred over the VW-developed VR6, which was dated and all but topped out, for modding.

VW used that engine in many Audis and Seats, including the TT and A4, and had it producing 40-50 percent more hp and torque stock on some of those platforms. The GTi's version made just below 180hp stock -- yet had the same drivetrains and internals. An ECU flash instantly produced 35-40 more hp and @ 50 ft-lbs. All one needed to do to eat Boxsters for lunch was mildly upgrade the suspension.

I am a 1.8t "guru" I guess, built 4 of them over my years. VW/Audi was ahead of the turbo 4cyl game at the time, for sure. Great engine, but the new 2.0L EA888 is a BEAST in comparison.

Here was my "1.8t" 2.0l stroker, oversized 20v head, cams yada yada. All pushing a BWS366 turbo, lol the lag was epic, but when boost hit, it was out. Best time was 10.86, moved on from drag racing after that.

What's that? A fuel Rail??? lol

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

Heh!

:: apeing his best Paul Hogan voice ::

That's not a turbo. [Opens the hood above] THAT's a turbo!

[Dylan86]

It used to take SO much work, to make 300whp, reliably with a small displacement engine, especially back in the early 2k's. Things are only getting better for us car guys, IMO!