[BMW335iOn18s]

^ what he said. You can upgrade all the clutches you want, but that's just a band aid for the lack of will to improve yourself.

Ever since BMW went turbo, they've attracted the type of "car enthusiast" who prioritize JB4, E85, meth, dyno sheets and street racing rather than the balance of power and handling that BMW was known for.

They don't care about proper driving technique, they don't care about proper shift technique, or even driving stick for that matter. They just want to launch the car from a dig into the stratosphere.

I probably know over 10 people with modified n54/n55 BMWs. They're mostly automatic/xdrive. They compete not with who has the most fun car, but who beat joe shmoes modded 5.0 last night. These aren't people who dream about driving the Nurburgring, they'd rather top their cars out driving in a straight line on the autobahn. I swear. Some of these people drive around with steering wheels 40 degrees out of alignment and warped rotors but still go 150 every chance they get.

They think X5 Ms are real M cars...

That's not what BMWs are about.

What makes me sad is that these are the people who feed into horsepower wars and encourage automakers to build soulless sports cars like GT-Rs and (dare I say it) F10 M5s rather than cars like S2000s, older M3s, etc etc.

Sorry if I offended anyone, that is not my intention. Just trying to make the OP aware of the idea that learning how to drive the car is more fun and rewarding that just throwing more ridiculous aftermarket parts at it just so he can out run his neighbors modded Vette.

By the way, I'm 21 myself. Yes you can probably use a M3/M4 clutch. Just make sure you improve yourself before you decide there is something wrong with the car.

[nike001]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Sorry if I offended anyone, that is not my intention. Just trying to make the OP aware of the idea that learning how to drive the car is more fun and rewarding that just throwing more ridiculous aftermarket parts at it just so he can out run his neighbors modded Vette.

No, you hit the nail on the head. People are out here doing 40-rolls and dragging people from a dig when that's not what BMW's are meant for at all.

There's a reason why the M4 *only* has 425hp and the M2 *only* 365hp and that's because the cars don't need any more. BMW has always done a freaking FANTASTIC job matching up USEABLE power with their chassis' until the era of brute force came along with the F10 M5 (one can argue the E60 M5 too) where BMW just wanted to show off that they can make a tire shredding machine like AMG and the American's Corvettes/Mustangs/Camaros with entirely too much power for the general public to be able to safely use.

To be honest, the m235i in stock form is more than any person on this board can likely handle consistently at its limits.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by nike001

No, you hit the nail on the head. People are out here doing 40-rolls and dragging people from a dig when that's not what BMW's are meant for at all.

There's a reason why the M4 *only* has 425hp and the M2 *only* 365hp and that's because the cars don't need any more. BMW has always done a freaking FANTASTIC job matching up USEABLE power with their chassis' until the era of brute force came along with the F10 M5 (one can argue the E60 M5 too) where BMW just wanted to show off that they can make a tire shredding machine like AMG and the American's Corvettes/Mustangs/Camaros with entirely too much power for the general public to be able to safely use.

To be honest, the m235i in stock form is more than any person on this board can likely handle consistently at its limits.

Totally agreed. Especially with the super narrow rear wheels.

[Deutsche-Broke]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Power doesn't wear a clutch out unless the clutch is slipping because it can't hold the power. Clutches wear out due to heat and fiction.

Damn.. Amazing thread...

I could have saved a clutch on both a late Honda Prelude and a 914/6 if only my young ex-wife had read this thread instead of constantly arguing with logic and facts..

This combined with multiple stories every year about people breaking into manual transmission vehicles and not being able to steal them due to the presence of a third pedal makes me really marvel that BMW is even offering a 6MT at all.

It really makes me laugh and at the same time gives me pause as to where the "driving experience" is headed.

[esp260]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Fair enough.

1. This time around, practice releasing the clutch to the friction point (without any throttle) and then adding throttle to keep RPMs steady when you take off.

2. When shifting, generally, don't spend too much time with the clutch pedal between 0% and 100% depressed. Make your shifts briskly. Don't let RPM fall below where they would be in the next gear.

3. YouTube how to rev-match. Practice by rev matching 4th-3rd at about 35mph. That's like 1800 rpm in 4th to like 2300 in 3rd. You blip the gas pedal to bring the revs up from where they are in 4th to where they will be in 3rd while you're foot presses down on the clutch and then when you release the clutch quickly it should be smooth.

Mimic the behavior of a modern automatic transmission, basically.

It might sound hard at first, but it's really easy after doing it for a day or 2. 2nd gear will always be hardest to rev match, but always get it as close as you can.

Never downshift into first.

Oh, and btw, if you can't rev match, then only downshift if your at 2000 rpm or below. A downshift from 3000-5500 rpm (like, let's say 3rd to 2nd gear at 40 mph) without a rev match is really hard on the clutch.

Hope this helps, I'm sure if you have any questions I and other forum members can give you some more insights.


P.S. Maybe one of our European members can chime in. During a trip to Russia last year, I noticed that although many people "drive stick" such as cab drivers, everyone was really really really bad at it. They were really sloppy. They would rev to like 2500-3000 rpm and then release the clutch to move from a stop and then upshift at like 4000 rpm. Why is this? Why aren't Europeans taught how to properly drive a manual?

Is it bad to rev to 1.20-1.5k before releasing the clutch during 1st gear?

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by esp260

Is it bad to rev to 1.20-1.5k before releasing the clutch during 1st gear?

Thats not terrible, I actually do it myself without even noticing. It's primary due to the fact that our cars, like all street cars, have soft engine/transmission mounts. Ideally, if you had really stiff mounts, you wouldn't have to do this. With soft mounts, the transmission is actually moving around when you engage the clutch, and by slipping the clutch a little you make it nice and smooth. The alternative is to keep it at idle or 1000 rpm, but if you take off quickly, it will be a little jerky.

So no, that's perfectly fine.

[Sir Thomas Bombadil]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Thats not terrible, I actually do it myself without even noticing. It's primary due to the fact that our cars, like all street cars, have soft engine/transmission mounts. Ideally, if you had really stiff mounts, you wouldn't have to do this. With soft mounts, the transmission is actually moving around when you engage the clutch, and by slipping the clutch a little you make it nice and smooth. The alternative is to keep it at idle or 1000 rpm, but if you take off quickly, it will be a little jerky.

So no, that's perfectly fine.

I know this conversation is hijacking the thread a bit, but oh well.

I learned to drive a stick on a buddy's 3 series back in high school and have a 6MT 235 coming soon. This will be the first manual car that I've owned, though. Anything to know re: driving a manual that I might not think about after having driven an automatic for the last 10 years?

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by Sir Thomas Bombadil

I know this conversation is hijacking the thread a bit, but oh well.

I learned to drive a stick on a buddy's 3 series back in high school and have a 6MT 235 coming soon. This will be the first manual car that I've owned, though. Anything to know re: driving a manual that I might not think about after having driven an automatic for the last 10 years?

Other than what I've mentioned in this thread, I can't think of anything. But check out my other posts and I'm sure if you have any questions I and other forum members can give some insight

[raleedy]

Originally Posted by Sir Thomas Bombadil

Anything to know re: driving a manual that I might not think about after having driven an automatic for the last 10 years?

You'll need to think occasionally about your left foot.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Sir Thomas Bombadil

I know this conversation is hijacking the thread a bit, but oh well.

I learned to drive a stick on a buddy's 3 series back in high school and have a 6MT 235 coming soon. This will be the first manual car that I've owned, though. Anything to know re: driving a manual that I might not think about after having driven an automatic for the last 10 years?

Be sure not to develop a bad habit of sitting still with the car in gear and clutch pedal depressed. When at a light or similar need to stop, slide the shift into neutral and release the clutch pedal. Reduces wear on bearings.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Sir Thomas Bombadil

I know this conversation is hijacking the thread a bit, but oh well.

I learned to drive a stick on a buddy's 3 series back in high school and have a 6MT 235 coming soon. This will be the first manual car that I've owned, though. Anything to know re: driving a manual that I might not think about after having driven an automatic for the last 10 years?

The direct injection N55 motor teamed with the relatively deep 1st gear means it doesn't take much rpm at all to get going. This motor and it's deep gearing eerily reminds me of my buddies old 1990 Mustang 5.0 notchback with 3.73 gears. By that I mean strong low rpm torque multiplication and all you need is around 1,200-1,500rpms to get going unless you're on a hill. If you're on a decline starting out, you can easily start out in 2nd and it's much smoother that way. Starting out in 2nd on a flat surface is easy as well and doesn't take much slipping of the clutch or rpm.

With the direct injection power (turbo out of boost) and the relatively deep gearing of the 6MT, the car is happy to run at 1,500rpms around town in most situations except for stepper grades. Shifting at 2,500rpms is a no-brainer and I often skip gears because the motor can handle it happily. The quick spooling turbo can also help climbing certain grades. I wouldn't recommend lugging the motor in a tall gear going up a steep hill though. That's the most dangerous situation for a turbo motor (i.e., high load, low rpm). Don't do it.

My only major gripes with the 6MT is the throttle control/tuning and that heavy dual mass flywheel. I've been driving sticks for over 25 years and never had to replace a clutch in any of my cars and many were drag raced and road raced competitively. I know how to drive a manual quite well, thank you I find the throttle control in Comfort mode to be more linear, but the throttle blip lag makes it very difficult to rev match when going from 4th to 2nd, etc. In Sport/Sport+, it's far easier to rev match, but the initial tip-in is unnecessarily aggressive at the first 20% of travel. It can make starting out in 1st like a light switch, either you granny it with very little throttle and you take off with a bit too much thrust and you look like a stereotypical BMW driver. If there was a middle ground between the two settings, I'd be really happy. I'll likely get something like "Pedal Box" so that I can get a throttle setting I like.

[Luftwaffe1O1]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

I'm talking about mk6 jettas and previous gen ford mondeos. Gas powered.

Keep in mind, the Jetta, and Ford Mondeos can be offered with very tiny motors in Europe. I think here they come with a 1.7 or 1.8 or something, in the EU they go quite a bit lower. In any case, don't underestimate how little power some of those have.

Hell they have 520is, and I think even a 720 in Europe. Imagine an F10 5 series, with the 320 motor....

The lowest end of the gas Jetta lineup in the UK for instance has 125hp. That is going to be dog slow, and unless you are winding it up, you aren't going anywhere.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by Luftwaffe1O1

Keep in mind, the Jetta, and Ford Mondeos can be offered with very tiny motors in Europe. I think here they come with a 1.7 or 1.8 or something, in the EU they go quite a bit lower. In any case, don't underestimate how little power some of those have.

Hell they have 520is, and I think even a 720 in Europe. Imagine an F10 5 series, with the 320 motor....

The lowest end of the gas Jetta lineup in the UK for instance has 125hp. That is going to be dog slow, and unless you are winding it up, you aren't going anywhere.

I know I know, but still. Maybe they have to slip it a little more. But 1/3 of the way to red line??? Ridiculous. And they were jerky too lol. I drove a 2.0 mk6 Jetta 5 speed and used to own a mk6 GLI (2.0T) 6 speed. The Jetta taxi was probably a 1.2TSI or 1.4 TSI, both of which are torquier than the NA 2.0 we got as a base model in the US. The 5 speed 2.0 was honestly a nice car. It drove much more naturally and predictably than my GLI which always felt like it was over powering the front wheels/chassis. Sorry for the thread jack.

[Luftwaffe1O1]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

I know I know, but still. Maybe they have to slip it a little more. But 1/3 of the way to red line??? Ridiculous. And they were jerky too lol. I drove a 2.0 mk6 Jetta 5 speed and used to own a mk6 GLI (2.0T) 6 speed. The Jetta taxi was probably a 1.2TSI or 1.4 TSI, both of which are torquier than the NA 2.0 we got as a base model in the US. The 5 speed 2.0 was honestly a nice car. It drove much more naturally and predictably than my GLI which always felt like it was over powering the front wheels/chassis. Sorry for the thread jack.

I dunno, maybe just the cabbies tend to be crazy. Even the cab drivers in San Diego are nuts at times, and drive like morons with autos.

[krhodes1]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Be sure not to develop a bad habit of sitting still with the car in gear and clutch pedal depressed. When at a light or similar need to stop, slide the shift into neutral and release the clutch pedal. Reduces wear on bearings.

And allows the stop/start system to save some gas.

[BMW GENIUS]

Yeah I agree my clutch control could be a bit better, but from what I have seen this isn't a completely uncommon thing. IIRC I believe abirmaher has also already experienced a slipping clutch. Maybe he has some input on it?

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by BMW GENIUS

Yeah I agree my clutch control could be a bit better, but from what I have seen this isn't a completely uncommon thing. IIRC I believe abirmaher has also already experienced a slipping clutch. Maybe he has some input on it?

He's running all the bolt-ons plus a turbo upgrade. It's not surprising that the stock clutch is protesting.

If you've added power mods and/or you drive hard, the OEM clutch will wear quicker than normal. If you're running a lot more power and/or slip the clutch a lot, clutch life will be significantly reduced.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

He's running all the bolt-ons plus a turbo upgrade. It's not surprising that the stock clutch is protesting.

If you've added power mods and/or you drive hard, the OEM clutch will wear quicker than normal. If you're running a lot more power and/or slip the clutch a lot, clutch life will be significantly reduced.

What do you consider driving hard? High RPM shifts? or clutch dumps, launches, etc

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by krhodes1

And allows the stop/start system to save some gas.

Possibly, but I dislike it so much, it is always defeated.

[Dylan86]

The last car I had that was a manual gearbox was my Audi A4 drag car (580whp) and it didn't ever hold a 4-puck,6-puck whatever clutch for longer than two-three events. That was until I went with a twin disc, which then lasted a whole season. The single plated clutches were all rated for "600-800tq" but couldn't take the hard AWD launches, hence why twins are so good for drag racing.

Buy the type of clutch for your driving style, not necessarily hp/tq.. If you're a track lapper, with moderate power, the stock clutch is what you want for the smoothest engagement possible, I have yet to see a FBO 235i destroy a clutch due to power alone. If you're drag racing, even at stock power, you will toast your clutch from slipping/launching guaranteed.

We're lucky BMW knows how to equip these cars with a strong factory unit. The ones in the VW's these days are fried after Stage 1 in most cases. That is simply a case of going from 210hp/250tq to 310hp/390tq and spirited driving, not drag racing. So from the power perspective, if you're increasing torque by that much, you should consider a clutch before modding to that point, unless you know what the outcome will be and are prepared for it.

[murderwasthebass]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

^ what he said. You can upgrade all the clutches you want, but that's just a band aid for the lack of will to improve yourself.

Ever since BMW went turbo, they've attracted the type of "car enthusiast" who prioritize JB4, E85, meth, dyno sheets and street racing rather than the balance of power and handling that BMW was known for.

They don't care about proper driving technique, they don't care about proper shift technique, or even driving stick for that matter. They just want to launch the car from a dig into the stratosphere.

I probably know over 10 people with modified n54/n55 BMWs. They're mostly automatic/xdrive. They compete not with who has the most fun car, but who beat joe shmoes modded 5.0 last night. These aren't people who dream about driving the Nurburgring, they'd rather top their cars out driving in a straight line on the autobahn. I swear. Some of these people drive around with steering wheels 40 degrees out of alignment and warped rotors but still go 150 every chance they get.

They think X5 Ms are real M cars...

That's not what BMWs are about.

What makes me sad is that these are the people who feed into horsepower wars and encourage automakers to build soulless sports cars like GT-Rs and (dare I say it) F10 M5s rather than cars like S2000s, older M3s, etc etc.

Sorry if I offended anyone, that is not my intention. Just trying to make the OP aware of the idea that learning how to drive the car is more fun and rewarding that just throwing more ridiculous aftermarket parts at it just so he can out run his neighbors modded Vette.

By the way, I'm 21 myself. Yes you can probably use a M3/M4 clutch. Just make sure you improve yourself before you decide there is something wrong with the car.

This whole thing could not have been said any better. ESPECIALLY the part, "Ever since BMW went turbo, they've attracted the type of "car enthusiast" who prioritize JB4, E85, meth, dyno sheets and street racing rather than the balance of power and handling that BMW was known for."

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by murderwasthebass

This whole thing could not have been said any better. ESPECIALLY the part, "Ever since BMW went turbo, they've attracted the type of "car enthusiast" who prioritize JB4, E85, meth, dyno sheets and street racing rather than the balance of power and handling that BMW was known for."

Yea, that was my takeaway as well from that statement, so true. I am not a "purist" by any stretch and that "guy" street racing/E85 full bolt on used to be me. Now I enjoy maxing out, close to stock sports cars on a road track, way more rewarding IMO.

D