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      05-20-2014, 09:06 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFK007 View Post
So you guys never rest your foot on the clutch while your driving?

Can the weight of your foot be enough to engage the clutch??
Never.

Check out the link I sent earlier about "riding the clutch". It explains the problem.
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      05-20-2014, 09:20 PM   #24
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Good to know. Bad habit I must have developed when driving my e90 to work while in heavy traffic.
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      05-20-2014, 09:25 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFK007 View Post
Good to know. Bad habit I must have developed when driving my e90 to work while in heavy traffic.
More interesting will be if the warning message never returns after you modify your style!
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      05-20-2014, 10:29 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFK007
So you guys never rest your foot on the clutch while your driving?

Can the weight of your foot be enough to engage the clutch??
never. only for shifting.
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      05-21-2014, 01:26 AM   #27
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Its not so much that it engages the clutch as it will wear out the throw-out bearing much faster. The clutch cool message is just a digital timer on the clutch switch I am sure.
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      05-21-2014, 08:13 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFK007 View Post
So you guys never rest your foot on the clutch while your driving?

Can the weight of your foot be enough to engage the clutch??
No sir - my pops taught me many moons ago and this was one of the first things he emphasized.

I too, am hoping that by leaving your foot off that you don't get this message again...
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      05-21-2014, 11:56 PM   #29
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I never had my foot on the clutch except when I wanted to shift.

In over forty years of driving a stick, I never replaced a clutch. I owned most BMWs for a minimum of 6 years.
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      05-23-2014, 09:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golf4501 View Post
Two words: Dead pedal and even in bumper to bumper traffic I don't do that
It's one of my cardinal rules driving MT cars for over 30 years. It's also useful to know that 1st (in my car at least) can crawl at a steady 6km/h with the engine just idling.
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      05-23-2014, 10:18 PM   #31
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One other related point for longer life without repair...when stopped, such as at a light, shift to neutral and release clutch. Don't sit still with clutch depressed for red lights or similar durations.
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      05-23-2014, 11:46 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
One other related point for longer life without repair...when stopped, such as at a light, shift to neutral and release clutch. Don't sit still with clutch depressed for red lights or similar durations.
Totally agree.
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      05-24-2014, 06:56 AM   #33
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Just a bad habit I developed when driving on the i95 in heavy traffic.

Have been conscious of it the last week or so, and now I just leave my left foot on the dead pedal unless shifting.

So far, the light has yet to come back on!
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      05-24-2014, 09:57 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFK007 View Post
So you guys never rest your foot on the clutch while your driving?

Can the weight of your foot be enough to engage the clutch??
You mean disengage the clutch. You push in the clutch pedal to disengage the clutch and let the clutch pedal out to engage the clutch. If the clutch isn't fully engaged or disengaged then you're slipping the clutch. As others have said, having your foot on the clutch pedal any other time other than during the process of engaging it or disengaging it is a bad idea. It's not a foot rest, that's what the dead pedal is for.
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      05-24-2014, 01:23 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
One other related point for longer life without repair...when stopped, such as at a light, shift to neutral and release clutch. Don't sit still with clutch depressed for red lights or similar durations.
That's actually illegal in South Carolina, not that you could ever get caught but also putting your car in neutral while coasting is illegal. I've never put my manual transmission BMW's in neutral when driving and never had an issue. I actually think it is very dangerous if you quickly need to move and you get caught screwing around shifting when you could already be in gear. I think this is BMW 8 or 9 with a manual for me and always keep the clutch pedal depressed fully at a light, stop sign or stopped in traffic and never had a clutch problem.
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      05-24-2014, 01:40 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky13 View Post
That's actually illegal in South Carolina, not that you could ever get caught but also putting your car in neutral while coasting is illegal. I've never put my manual transmission BMW's in neutral when driving and never had an issue. I actually think it is very dangerous if you quickly need to move and you get caught screwing around shifting when you could already be in gear. I think this is BMW 8 or 9 with a manual for me and always keep the clutch pedal depressed fully at a light, stop sign or stopped in traffic and never had a clutch problem.
This is not at all about coasting, just to be clear. This is about wearing out the throwout bearing over time from disengaging the clutch when stopped. With the number of cars you've had, you may have disposed of them before the problem became evident. The actual effect on the bearing is without dispute. However, how long it takes to show itself may vary and affect owners more than lessees.

Please provide the reference for the South Carolina statute about a manual transmission being in neutral when the vehicle is stopped. This would be very interesting, as it may be unique in the nation.

I can reassure you after almost five decades of manual transmission driving that there is no danger for an attentive driver. As the cross-traffic stops or the light changes, which is visible, a quick and gentle slip from the H pattern cross-over into 1st is less than a second and often faster than those in adjacent cars with automatics can move from the brake pedal to the accelerator. No screwing around needed...about a half second of activity and over time, it becomes somewhat below awareness as an "automatic" behavior.
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      05-24-2014, 01:52 PM   #37
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Throw out bearings are simple and pretty tough.
My zf320 trans in my e46 has worn detent pins. It won't go into gear from neutral without at least 3k RPM. For the past 80k+ miles I've been keeping the clutch in anytime I'm sitting still.
However, my clutch master cylinder did die--I'm sure from holding the pedal in all the time.
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      05-24-2014, 02:08 PM   #38
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http://community.cartalk.com/discuss...ing-at-a-light
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      05-24-2014, 02:09 PM   #39
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This is just crazy, I can think of two specific situation yesterday when it would have been dumb as hell to put the car in neutral. I was stopped at a light to turn left and was probably car 5 or 6 and the cars kept moved up 10-15 feet at a time or 3-5 ft. I'm supposed to shift into first move 3 ft shift back to neutral shift to first back to neutral like 3-4 times in a 50-60 ft stretch. Sitting on a slight hill in the afternoon this was repeated maybe 7-8 times at a busy stretch where cars kept moving up either a couple feet or a full car length. You send me the specific information that shows shifting two to 5 times more often than needed puts less stress on your clutch or transmission. In a perfect flat world with zero traffic your theory might work unfortunately it isn't flat where I live, the traffic is constantly adjusting the position of their cars. Pulling out of my neighborhood at the stop sign its a mandatory right or left turn and you need to get up to speed quick because its a blind hill. You couldn't pay me to put my car in neutral at that spot. I could care less if I have to repair a part at 60,000 miles if it saves my life and saves about 5,000 additional shifts a year. This theory can be put beside the change your oil every 3,000 mile theory. Like I said never had a problem and drove this way with daily bumper to bumper traffic. I would have a forearm like Popeye if I had to constantly take an additional shift in traffic each time at a couple miles an hour, stop shift into neutral, cars move then shift back to first, cars stop shift back to neutral, cars move shift back to first. Please enlighten me how this is less wear with twice as many shifts.
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      05-24-2014, 02:22 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky13 View Post
This is just crazy, I can think of two specific situation yesterday when it would have been dumb as hell to put the car in neutral. I was stopped at a light to turn left and was probably car 5 or 6 and the cars kept moved up 10-15 feet at a time or 3-5 ft. I'm supposed to shift into first move 3 ft shift back to neutral shift to first back to neutral like 3-4 times in a 50-60 ft stretch. Sitting on a slight hill in the afternoon this was repeated maybe 7-8 times at a busy stretch where cars kept moving up either a couple feet or a full car length. You send me the specific information that shows shifting two to 5 times more often than needed puts less stress on your clutch or transmission. In a perfect flat world with zero traffic your theory might work unfortunately it isn't flat where I live, the traffic is constantly adjusting the position of their cars. Pulling out of my neighborhood at the stop sign its a mandatory right or left turn and you need to get up to speed quick because its a blind hill. You couldn't pay me to put my car in neutral at that spot. I could care less if I have to repair a part at 60,000 miles if it saves my life and saves about 5,000 additional shifts a year. This theory can be put beside the change your oil every 3,000 mile theory. Like I said never had a problem and drove this way with daily bumper to bumper traffic. I would have a forearm like Popeye if I had to constantly take an additional shift in traffic each time at a couple miles an hour, stop shift into neutral, cars move then shift back to first, cars stop shift back to neutral, cars move shift back to first. Please enlighten me how this is less wear with twice as many shifts.
Your examples are not applicable to this discussion. In both of your cases, the car was about to move repeatedly and soon. The advice is for situations when standing still for a prolonged time. This is not about flowing traffic, even bumper-to-bumper, nor a stop sign. Depending on the complexity of the intersection, a red light may be minutes. Being completely still for minutes with the clutch disengaged has no driving advantage, and there is a potential safety disadvantage, as well as mechanical wear. If hit in a rear end accident while stopped, it is highly likely that your foot will slip off the clutch pedal, increasing the probability of being launched into the car in front of you or increasing the force of that event. Rear end impacts are more common than a hypothetical situation where you need an early .25 -.5 second to unexpectedly start from a stop.

The underlying issue of this discussion is that a driver must use judgement to apply technical information to their situation. If you live in a constantly moving, bumper-to-bumper world, you may have to take other actions than those optimal for your car.

Could you please send the reference to the S.C. statute?
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      05-24-2014, 03:12 PM   #41
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Appears to be just another internet myth

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/qu...at-a-red-light
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      05-24-2014, 03:21 PM   #42
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Actually I think lucky13 has a valid point with the examples he gave. However when I'm sitting at a 1 to 2 minute stoplight I'm taking my foot off the clutch and putting her in neutral. Besides , the BMW stop stop system requires you to put gearbox in neutral when stopped and I know we all just love the stop start system, right ?
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      05-24-2014, 03:22 PM   #43
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The issue of when stopped to either keep clutch pedal pressed down or released while selector is in neutral - is never ending.

Pat Goss from MOTORWEEK said to keep pedal depressed and in gear.

David Solomon from Motorminute says be in neutral and have clutch pedal released (up)

I thought being in neutral/pedal released (up) would have all the clutch discs rotating at engine speed and total disengagement from transmission

Being in gear with clutch fully depressed would have flywheel side of clutch rotating at engine speed and rear friction plate being pressed back toward transmission with linear pressure on the throw-out bearing - I'm not a tech so when saying linear pressure I mean no twisting forces on trans side of clutch but hydraulic rearward pressure on the throw-out bearing.

Some road cars with racing clutches I would think it would be fatiguing keep clutch depressed at stops all the time.
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      05-24-2014, 03:34 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tccox View Post
Appears to be just another internet myth

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/qu...at-a-red-light
Thank you for this research. As suspected, there is no statute about the specific issue discussed here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tccox View Post
Actually I think lucky13 has a valid point with the examples he gave.
Yes, he does. But, those situations were not on-point about being stopped at a red light or in other prolonged standstill situations.
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