[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Simply put, it enables the overly complex for those who can't execute it, time and time again on a regular basis, every time. A good auto transmission does this as well. That is progress.

Sure a DCT is technological progress, but it is not emotional, experiential, tactile, and engagement progress. Again, its like virtual reality s*x vs. the old fashioned way. That really is a good analogy!

[Supernaut]

Other than cost, current manuals have no tangible advantages over modern automatic transmissions. On a spreadsheet, upfront cost and repair costs are the only loosing points an auto (particularly DCT) will suffer. Given that people today are growing up in a poke and swipe, fingertip-operated culture, paddle shifting becomes the obvious route of progression for drivers wanting more interaction. There's no saving the manual - just placing bets on how long it will last and who will be the last car to have it. Owning one is an emotional choice and no longer a practical one.

That being said, I'll keep driving a manual as long as they sell them. It's all I've owned and part of the driving experience for me. Driving an auto 235 on the track at the BMW Performance Center was kind of detached; getting into my delivered car and shifting the gears was relaxing and sensual, and became a bonding moment.

Every generation grows attached to components of what they grew up with, be it entertainment, technology, or people. We feel that something is being lost with progress, that really isn't progress at all, but progress happens anyway. The truth is, faster, safer, more efficient cars really are progress, but emotions are more powerful then logic. So savor the manuals, but there's no saving them.

[P7X]

[Tpeterson]

Save the manuals,save your car !

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Supernaut

Other than cost, current manuals have no tangible advantages over modern automatic transmissions. On a spreadsheet, upfront cost and repair costs are the only loosing points an auto (particularly DCT) will suffer. Given that people today are growing up in a poke and swipe, fingertip-operated culture, paddle shifting becomes the obvious route of progression for drivers wanting more interaction. There's no saving the manual - just placing bets on how long it will last and who will be the last car to have it. Owning one is an emotional choice and no longer a practical one.

That being said, I'll keep driving a manual as long as they sell them. It's all I've owned and part of the driving experience for me. Driving an auto 235 on the track at the BMW Performance Center was kind of detached; getting into my delivered car and shifting the gears was relaxing and sensual, and became a bonding moment.

Every generation grows attached to components of what they grew up with, be it entertainment, technology, or people. We feel that something is being lost with progress, that really isn't progress at all, but progress happens anyway. The truth is, faster, safer, more efficient cars really are progress, but emotions are more powerful then logic. So savor the manuals, but there's no saving them.

Unfortunately, you are 100% correct.

[thebmw]

Start watching around 3:00. This is what it's all about. The Gen V Viper is even more raw and pure, yet a better performer than the Vantage...imagine that. Viffermike, just wondering if you relate to the German camera man in the video

[thebmw]

Listen to Randy Probst and you can compare the 911 GT3 RS vs the Viper ACR. Randy has traditionally hated the Viper. But his raw emotions cannot be tamed in the video, much of it due to the stick shift. Porsche 911 GT3 RS video starts at 3:05. Viper video starts at 7:20.

[ortoLANparty]

Compared to most of you, I've driven few manual cars. Attempted to learn on a track-day-prepped Miata; bought an 87 Audi Coupe GT; briefly drove a Spec Miata to bed in the brakes; bought a 93 6-speed Acura Legend. That's it.

The manual transmission, as we know it, is dead. And for good reason! Modern transmissions are more precise, capable of changing gears in milliseconds. There is no "feel" - drop a modern car from 8 to 6 to 3, and you feel nothing. The techno-transmission is smart enough to respond to your gear changes and adjust accordingly before the driver feels a damn thing. The car simply responds and adjusts, remaining utterly stable and predictable despite the driver's attempts. You have to work pretty hard to screw it up.

That said, the binary engagement of a track/race prepped car is tricky. The middle ground is the ordinary manual transmission of yesteryear. As an elementary manual driver, the car that really made me get it was the '87 Audi. Let out the clutch a tiny bit; depress the clutch a tiny bit -- you can FEEL it. There is a predictable linear range of motion, and corresponding response. Analog, if you will.

Modern cars lack that feel. I bought an auto 228i, and can't imagine how a manual gearbox would interface with the many computer systems that are far smarter and quicker than I am. I simply can't measure up.

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by ortoLANparty

The manual transmission, as we know it, is dead. And for good reason! Modern transmissions are more precise, capable of changing gears in milliseconds. There is no "feel" - drop a modern car from 8 to 6 to 3, and you feel nothing. The techno-transmission is smart enough to respond to your gear changes and adjust accordingly before the driver feels a damn thing. The car simply responds and adjusts, remaining utterly stable and predictable despite the driver's attempts. You have to work pretty hard to screw it up.

Modern cars lack that feel. I bought an auto 228i, and can't imagine how a manual gearbox would interface with the many computer systems that are far smarter and quicker than I am. I simply can't measure up.

That's fine and good, but I think you pay the price for technical sophistication in durability and cost, especially when taking a street car designed transmission on the track.

[Viffermike]

There were those who decried power steering when it became available. Same with power brakes. Hydraulic clutch mechanisms, too. Throttles that didn't actuate with a cable and a cam attached to a butterfly valve. And, of course, steering-by-wire -- the biggest bugaboo with our cars. The list goes on.

What do all of these have in common? That the new technology removed "feel" from the operating experience. And they do. Yet all but the last one are standard on all modern cars -- even the Viper and Porsche RS race variants others seem so ready to thrust forward as proof that the manual transmission should never die.

Earlier in this thread I noted to thebmw how much faster the Viper ACR could potentially be with a DCT. That poster never refuted my point. Would that car be less of what it aims to be with a DCT? Very possibly. But it won't be faster in the hands of the majority of people who drive it -- which is my point throughout this thread.

Yes: a good manual transmission enhances the driving experience as an experience. It no longer enhances performance in most situations -- even with an expert at the wheel. That's my point.

That's what power steering, power brakes, and hydraulic clutches do, too. That's why manuals will die fairly soon (or, at least one of several). Performance trumps experience when it comes to sale-ability -- particularly when those who can appreciate an experience (i.e., operate a manual) become fewer by each passing model year.

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

That's what power steering, power brakes, and hydraulic clutches do, too. That's why manuals will die fairly soon (or, at least one of several). Performance trumps experience when it comes to sale-ability -- particularly when those who can appreciate an experience (i.e., operate a manual) become fewer by each passing model year.

When I was in Europe several years ago, all I saw were manuals, maybe 5% autos. I don't know, I'm surprised how many options there are for manual transmissions there are here in the US despite the SUV/(cup holder) attitude about cars.

I don't know about power brakes or clutches, but power steering did develop more feel over time, and I think the same is possible with electric. I'm confident there will always be a small consistent population of enthusiasts who want to be interactive to the operation of a vehicle, and someone will satisfy that market, but in the future with more automation, it might mean it won't happen on the public roads.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Yes: a good manual transmission enhances the driving experience as an experience. It no longer enhances performance in most situations -- even with an expert at the wheel. That's my point.

I believe you are correct, and that's all I need or want it to do.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

There were those who decried power steering when it became available. Same with power brakes. Hydraulic clutch mechanisms, too. Throttles that didn't actuate with a cable and a cam attached to a butterfly valve. And, of course, steering-by-wire -- the biggest bugaboo with our cars. The list goes on.

What do all of these have in common? That the new technology removed "feel" from the operating experience. And they do. Yet all but the last one are standard on all modern cars -- even the Viper and Porsche RS race variants others seem so ready to thrust forward as proof that the manual transmission should never die.

Earlier in this thread I noted to thebmw how much faster the Viper ACR could potentially be with a DCT. That poster never refuted my point. Would that car be less of what it aims to be with a DCT? Very possibly. But it won't be faster in the hands of the majority of people who drive it -- which is my point throughout this thread.

Yes: a good manual transmission enhances the driving experience as an experience. It no longer enhances performance in most situations -- even with an expert at the wheel. That's my point.

That's what power steering, power brakes, and hydraulic clutches do, too. That's why manuals will die fairly soon (or, at least one of several). Performance trumps experience when it comes to sale-ability -- particularly when those who can appreciate an experience (i.e., operate a manual) become fewer by each passing model year.

All true. My point has been simply the driving experience. Nothing like controlling the car with all 4 extremities.

[P7X]

Originally Posted by thebmw

All true. My point has been simply the driving experience. Nothing like controlling the car with all 4 extremities.

This ^^.

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Performance trumps experience when it comes to sale-ability -- particularly when those who can appreciate an experience (i.e., operate a manual) become fewer by each passing model year.

And sadly this ^^

Manuals don't have anything to boost about anymore except this. DCTs are faster but bred from the need to go faster around a track and one less thing a driver needs to do because he needs his lightening reflexes to pay attention to whats happening on the track. Name one person on this board that is a professional racer. DCT for him/her to get faster lap times all day long no prob.

BUT everyone else... is being lazy and not that interested in driving IMO. Cars are becoming easier and easier to drive, not forcing anyone to become a better driver, more and more the car is doing all the work. Learning stick did and still is forcing people to be a better driver and nowadays forcing people to pay attention to what they are doing. I've taught many driving classes with the main theme of being involved and paying attention will make you a better driver on the road. At the same time im glued to my phone but when I get into my car it gets put away or hands free.

So to sum up, DCT -> pay less attention -> not involved -> easier to drive leads to a world of self driving bubble cars.



I currently only have one car so my DD is also my weekend car so it is a manual. When I get another car I'll have my lazy auto AWD bubble car and a much rawer RWD manual weekend car. BTW im not a VIPER fan but I love that the ACR destroys most all DCT super cars on the track.

[XutvJet]

Take note on the auto forums (including this one) where the particular car in question has manual and automatic options and notice how many posts/threads there are about how the owner wishes they would have bought the manual even though they know it's slower. It's nearly impossible to find posts/threads of manual owners wishing they got the automatic option.

The point is, it's not always about how fast you can go around a track especially when your daily driver spends 99+% of it's time on the street.

[Dylan86]

99% of people who say they track their car or bought their car for track use never see the track. Just saying.. It's all justification for their purchase.

I can justify about anything I want. It's my money. I can't justify arguing with AT guys about shift speed and launch control, I just don't care. I bought a MT because that's my preferred method of shifting in this car. We all should support each others decisions, as they're very subjective and personal. Hence why some get so offended by others comments.

[amw896]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Take note on the auto forums (including this one) where the particular car in question has manual and automatic options and notice how many posts/threads there are about how the owner wishes they would have bought the manual even though they know it's slower. It's nearly impossible to find posts/threads of manual owners wishing they got the automatic option.

The point is, it's not always about how fast you can go around a track especially when your daily driver spends 99+% of it's time on the street.

yea, this argument usually leans this way in other car forums as well.

[amw896]

hoozah for mashing gears

[M24Oi]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Take note on the auto forums (including this one) where the particular car in question has manual and automatic options and notice how many posts/threads there are about how the owner wishes they would have bought the manual even though they know it's slower. It's nearly impossible to find posts/threads of manual owners wishing they got the automatic option.

The point is, it's not always about how fast you can go around a track especially when your daily driver spends 99+% of it's time on the street.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/poll....ts&pollid=7620

My take away and ignoring all personal variables: nearly 50-50 distribution for manual and auto, 3x more likely to regret getting the auto, about 1 in 8 chance of regretting an auto, ignorantly-- 1 in 12 chance of regretting regardless of which transmission you go with.

I reckon at least half of those "regrets" are still generally happy with their car anyway, would just do it differently given a second chance.

Or put another way: there's a pretty high chance that you're going to be happy with what you end up with

[vintage42]

Originally Posted by amw896

hoozah for mashing gears

The guy at the end of Post #102 is surely mashing his.

[MyM235i]

I have always driven manuals. I bought M235ix and had to get the auto. Winter here is real and RWD isn't ideal. After a year I gave up AWD for the manual and traded mine in, at great expense, on a 6MT. I couldn't get over the feel of the Tq converter. Maybe DCT would have been different I don't know.

[Y0tsuya]

Last summer I did an ED with a M235i 6MT, drove on the Autobahn/Autostrada and country backroads. Right now I'm in another ED with a 340i 8AT. Drove to Stuttgart on the Autobahn and through the Schwarzwald. I properly exercised the cars going 120mph+ down the Autobahn in manual and auto mode.

No offense to Viffermike and everyone who insist that the 3-series 8AT is great and feels just as good as the 6MT, but they're wrong.

Manual transmission feels way better. If you want the best driving experience, get a manual and learn how to shift. You will not regret it. Whereas with automatic, chances are that you will come to regret that decision.